NT Women=NCAA's most improved shooters

Censored by Laurie · March 29, 2016

On 3/25/2016 at 11:27 AM, Army of Dad said:

So, no response @Censored by Laurie or were you just trying to be argumentative?

eh. are you looking for mutually exclusive answers?

it was my birthday so I prioritized a long weekend with the special lady-friend in rural and mountainous Vermont to delving into the ins and outs of a mid-level athletic department.

so here...a week late and very topical. I think we're basically having a chicken/egg discussion...likely to lead no where...but my simple counter to all of this is let's say your 1-7 all get corrected...we're at 5 stars on AD-Yelp for costumer service, facilities, recruit experience, scheduling, fundraising and uniforms...who becomes more successful?

did white helmets doom Todd Dodge or was it more his/staff's inexperience?
did McCarney recruit poorly because of facilities and game-day experience or because he took an antiquated approach to recruiting?
did Benford lose to UA-Huntsville because it was poorly scheduled only 3 days after a trip to ranked Creighton or because he's an awful, awful coach
did Stephens or Peterson flame out because of low MGC numbers?

Army of Dad · March 29, 2016

16 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

eh. are you looking for mutually exclusive answers?

it was my birthday so I prioritized a long weekend with the special lady-friend in rural and mountainous Vermont to delving into the ins and outs of a mid-level athletic department.

so here...a week late and very topical. I think we're basically having a chicken/egg discussion...likely to lead no where...but my simple counter to all of this is let's say your 1-7 all get corrected...we're at 5 stars on AD-Yelp for costumer service, facilities, recruit experience, scheduling, fundraising and uniforms...who becomes more successful?

did white helmets doom Todd Dodge or was it more his/staff's inexperience?
did McCarney recruit poorly because of facilities and game-day experience or because he took an antiquated approach to recruiting?
did Benford lose to UA-Huntsville because it was poorly scheduled only 3 days after a trip to ranked Creighton or because he's an awful, awful coach
did Stephens or Peterson flame out because of low MGC numbers?

Well, as long as you had a good reason...

back on topic:

How do you feel that RV is supporting his people and setting them up for success?

Censored by Laurie · March 29, 2016

28 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

How do you feel that RV is supporting his people and setting them up for success?

I don't believe that's the discussion we're having...or at least not the one we started down. the original discussion revolved around whether RV and the state of the AD precluded a coach from being successful here.

I think the only real support for such an argument would be either...1. you suggest who of our failed coaches would've been successful with even an A+ AD...or 2. you show me one of our failed coaches having significant success elsewhere.

I think they've proven to be little more than poor hires and nothing I've seen suggests that a good hire can't have at least some measure of success here.

UNT90 · March 29, 2016

2 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I don't believe that's the discussion we're having...or at least not the one we started down. the original discussion revolved around whether RV and the state of the AD precluded a coach from being successful here.

I think the only real support for such an argument would be either...1. you suggest who of our failed coaches would've been successful with even an A+ AD...or 2. you show me one of our failed coaches having significant success elsewhere.

I think they've proven to be little more than poor hires and nothing I've seen suggests that a good hire can't have at least some measure of success here.

I think Dodge would have been successful if a real AD were here and demanded that he hire only one or 2 high school assistants, and none at coordinator positions. If ever someone needed such guidance, it was a high school coach making the jump. Dodge didn't get that guidance.

Rick Villarreal didn't do that, and Dodge failed as a result. Granted, he wanted those coaches, but there was zero leadership in place to tell him no, just like there is zero leadership in place to help Littrell navigate the very challenging and unique problems he will face at UNT. He will be left to do it completely on his own.

Better hope he is very good at recognition of and adaptation to extremely challenging circumstances, otherwise UNT could be looking at 1 win this year and 2 wins next year, with a bad recruiting class in between.

Keep on believing that the department manager isn't responsible for one of his products of you must, but I fear Littrell will prove you wrong again.

Let me ask you right now, do you think Littrell is the guy that can turn this around despite the AD? And if he doesn't, does that mean you are wrong about this topic?

Edited March 29, 2016 by UNT90

Army of Dad · March 29, 2016

4 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I don't believe that's the discussion we're having...or at least not the one we started down. the original discussion revolved around whether RV and the state of the AD precluded a coach from being successful here.

I think the only real support for such an argument would be either...1. you suggest who of our failed coaches would've been successful with even an A+ AD...or 2. you show me one of our failed coaches having significant success elsewhere.

I think they've proven to be little more than poor hires and nothing I've seen suggests that a good hire can't have at least some measure of success here.

I disagree that the only support for that argument must be either your first or second scenario. I think it can be both the quality of RVs coaching hires and all of the other things he gets wrong throughout the department. I don't see how it has to be only one or the other. It's possible that some of his biggest failures could have been kept from being such major disasters with better support and if his newest hires fail the fault may not lay entirely at their feet.

Harry · March 30, 2016

I am very excited about what Jalie will be able to accomplish once she gets more of her players on the court.

Censored by Laurie · March 30, 2016

15 hours ago, UNT90 said:

I think Dodge would have been successful if a real AD were here and demanded that he hire only one or 2 high school assistants, and none at coordinator positions. If ever someone needed such guidance, it was a high school coach making the jump. Dodge didn't get that guidance.

Rick Villarreal didn't do that, and Dodge failed as a result. Granted, he wanted those coaches, but there was zero leadership in place to tell him no, just like there is zero leadership in place to help Littrell navigate the very challenging and unique problems he will face at UNT. He will be left to do it completely on his own.

Better hope he is very good at recognition of and adaptation to extremely challenging circumstances, otherwise UNT could be looking at 1 win this year and 2 wins next year, with a bad recruiting class in between.

Keep on believing that the department manager isn't responsible for one of his products of you must, but I fear Littrell will prove you wrong again.

Let me ask you right now, do you think Littrell is the guy that can turn this around despite the AD? And if he doesn't, does that mean you are wrong about this topic?

to your first two paragraphs...if only someone would've already said that one page prior : "I think really only Todd Dodge was negatively affected by the AD...I still contend he was the absolute right hire...it was bold, he brought interesting football after years of 1950s style and he engaged the community...but he also tied his own noose by bringing a high school staff along with him. this is where the AD should've had the vision and /or balls to tell him no." -CBL

to the next two paragraphs...if he's not adaptable and prepared for a challenge then he's a shit coach and he'll fail because of it. and again...show me another power-dynamic where the "boss" makes 1/3 the salary of his subordinate. Littrell has had five different coaching gigs, has taken on more responsibility/promotion with each step and not stayed longer than 3 years at any one school. the man is ambitious and knows that if he wants to continue his upward arc that he has to win and save for showing up when he's asked to glad-hand a little, is likely not going to concern himself much with what's happening at the AD. If he (re)builds this program in 3-4 years, Bob Stoops will be pushing 60...maybe he's asked to come in as OC for a season or two to be groomed as heir-apparent at his alma-mater.

to the last paragraph...what would truly prove I'm wrong is if Littrell or Jalie flame out here and then goes on to be successful coaches elsewhere. Dodge is back in high school...McCarney is on a bar stool yelling at a jar of pickled eggs...Shanice, I understand, has a cushy gig as a saleswoman for Trapper Keeper...Peterson...uh, just realized I don't know anything about him with which to make a joke.

these were bad coaches hired by a bad AD who shouldn't have his job anymore. but guess what? he does...it's the reality of the situation...and one egotistical club seat holder flying a plane, making a public show of his being rid of his tickets and of all fucking things being an intolerable broken-record on a stupid fan message board isn't going to change that anytime soon.

this argument isn't even really about whether a coach can or can't be successful here...we've seen success here that, from what I know of UNT's athletic history, is pretty well in keeping with the status quo...it's about you wanting everyone else to feel as shitty about our poor luck in life to be UNT supporters as you do. you're hoping Littrell and Jalie fail because of how it will reflect on RV because this whole strange crusade of yours has become 100% personal.

14 hours ago, Army of Dad said:

I disagree that the only support for that argument must be either your first or second scenario. I think it can be both the quality of RVs coaching hires and all of the other things he gets wrong throughout the department. I don't see how it has to be only one or the other. It's possible that some of his biggest failures could have been kept from being such major disasters with better support and if his newest hires fail the fault may not lay entirely at their feet.

I get what you're saying...I just don't see any evidence to support the idea that these coaches were really hamstrung by RV. they were just shitty coaches.

MeanGreenTexan · March 30, 2016

6 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

...

Littrell has had five different coaching gigs, has taken on more responsibility/promotion with each step and not stayed longer than 3 years at any one school. the man is ambitious and knows that if he wants to continue his upward arc that he has to win and save for showing up when he's asked to glad-hand a little, is likely not going to concern himself much with what's happening at the AD.

...

This is the most important thing here. If he succeeds, don't expect him to hang around long. Not to say the Athletic Department can't do anything to slow/stop his progress, but it's really on Littrell's shoulders. We should hope for something like Urban Meyer's stop at Bowling Green. I have no idea how Bowling Green's Athletic Department is/was run, but it didn't slow Meyer down at all.

Sadly, I think it may be the same with Jalie. We're her Alma Mater, so maybe she hangs around a while, but if she turns this thing around and some regional P5 is struggling...

Greendylan · March 30, 2016

First of all, I can't believe we are really debating which is worse: our AD's terrible hires or the terrible performance at everything else the AD does. Having said that, I'll jump in here and say that I tend to agree that coaches primarily win or lose of their own accord. It's not like RV is in the stands jumping up and down and flailing his arms about while tossing popcorn to distract our players at the free throw line. Perhaps some of the bad coaching hires have become epically bad because of a lack of institutional support, but I doubt any of them would have left UNT with impressive records had they only worked under a different AD. They simply were bad hires. I think the real test will be how the AD handles it if we find success with someone like Littrell or Jalie. Does our AD have the strategic thinking to capitalize on some modicum of success and catapult that forward to something sustainable? That remains to be seen since we've sadly had scant few past examples to consider, but I'm skeptical to say the least.

Personally, my biggest concern is not actually the initial hiring of coaches (though that's a close second). I think the more disturbing trend is the poor judgment regarding retention of coaches. All ADs make mistakes with hiring (some way, way more than others), but it's our AD's reticence to take action that has caused some historic embarrassments to our most prominent athletic programs. Meanwhile, we are offered next to no rationale for seemingly counterintuitive decisions.

UNT90 · March 30, 2016

1 hour ago, Censored by Laurie said:

to your first two paragraphs...if only someone would've already said that one page prior : "I think really only Todd Dodge was negatively affected by the AD...I still contend he was the absolute right hire...it was bold, he brought interesting football after years of 1950s style and he engaged the community...but he also tied his own noose by bringing a high school staff along with him. this is where the AD should've had the vision and /or balls to tell him no." -CBL

to the next two paragraphs...if he's not adaptable and prepared for a challenge then he's a shit coach and he'll fail because of it. and again...show me another power-dynamic where the "boss" makes 1/3 the salary of his subordinate. Littrell has had five different coaching gigs, has taken on more responsibility/promotion with each step and not stayed longer than 3 years at any one school. the man is ambitious and knows that if he wants to continue his upward arc that he has to win and save for showing up when he's asked to glad-hand a little, is likely not going to concern himself much with what's happening at the AD. If he (re)builds this program in 3-4 years, Bob Stoops will be pushing 60...maybe he's asked to come in as OC for a season or two to be groomed as heir-apparent at his alma-mater.

to the last paragraph...what would truly prove I'm wrong is if Littrell or Jalie flame out here and then goes on to be successful coaches elsewhere. Dodge is back in high school...McCarney is on a bar stool yelling at a jar of pickled eggs...Shanice, I understand, has a cushy gig as a saleswoman for Trapper Keeper...Peterson...uh, just realized I don't know anything about him with which to make a joke.

these were bad coaches hired by a bad AD who shouldn't have his job anymore. but guess what? he does...it's the reality of the situation...and one egotistical club seat holder flying a plane, making a public show of his being rid of his tickets and of all fucking things being an intolerable broken-record on a stupid fan message board isn't going to change that anytime soon.

this argument isn't even really about whether a coach can or can't be successful here...we've seen success here that, from what I know of UNT's athletic history, is pretty well in keeping with the status quo...it's about you wanting everyone else to feel as shitty about our poor luck in life to be UNT supporters as you do. you're hoping Littrell and Jalie fail because of how it will reflect on RV because this whole strange crusade of yours has become 100% personal.

I get what you're saying...I just don't see any evidence to support the idea that these coaches were really hamstrung by RV. they were just shitty coaches.

So you are saying your argument is infallible, because every coach that fails has nothing to do with the AD, got it.

And here is a hint. When you result to personal insults, it's an indication you aren't winning the argument.

But rage on, dude.

Edited March 30, 2016 by UNT90

Censored by Laurie · March 30, 2016

19 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

So you are saying your argument is infallible, because every coach that fails has nothing to do with the AD, got it.

And here is a hint. When you result to personal insults, it's an indication you aren't winning the argument.

But rage on, dude.

nah. it's more an indication that sometimes people just need to be insulted.

UNT90 · March 30, 2016

5 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

nah. it's more an indication that sometimes people just need to be insulted.

Says the guy that sits on his ass, does nothing, and criticizes anyone who does because he's just too cool for school...

Edited March 30, 2016 by UNT90

MeanGreenTexan · March 30, 2016

9 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

So you are saying your argument is infallible, because every coach that fails has nothing to do with the AD, got it.

And here is a hint. When you result to personal insults, it's an indication you aren't winning the argument.

But rage on, dude.

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

Says the guy that sits on his ass, does nothing, and criticizes anyone who does because he's just to cool for school...

I guess you aren't winning the argument?

MeanGreenHoops · March 30, 2016

3 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

to your first two paragraphs...if only someone would've already said that one page prior : "I think really only Todd Dodge was negatively affected by the AD...I still contend he was the absolute right hire...it was bold, he brought interesting football after years of 1950s style and he engaged the community...but he also tied his own noose by bringing a high school staff along with him. this is where the AD should've had the vision and /or balls to tell him no." -CBL

to the next two paragraphs...if he's not adaptable and prepared for a challenge then he's a shit coach and he'll fail because of it. and again...show me another power-dynamic where the "boss" makes 1/3 the salary of his subordinate. Littrell has had five different coaching gigs, has taken on more responsibility/promotion with each step and not stayed longer than 3 years at any one school. the man is ambitious and knows that if he wants to continue his upward arc that he has to win and save for showing up when he's asked to glad-hand a little, is likely not going to concern himself much with what's happening at the AD. If he (re)builds this program in 3-4 years, Bob Stoops will be pushing 60...maybe he's asked to come in as OC for a season or two to be groomed as heir-apparent at his alma-mater.

to the last paragraph...what would truly prove I'm wrong is if Littrell or Jalie flame out here and then goes on to be successful coaches elsewhere. Dodge is back in high school...McCarney is on a bar stool yelling at a jar of pickled eggs...Shanice, I understand, has a cushy gig as a saleswoman for Trapper Keeper...Peterson...uh, just realized I don't know anything about him with which to make a joke.

these were bad coaches hired by a bad AD who shouldn't have his job anymore. but guess what? he does...it's the reality of the situation...and one egotistical club seat holder flying a plane, making a public show of his being rid of his tickets and of all fucking things being an intolerable broken-record on a stupid fan message board isn't going to change that anytime soon.

this argument isn't even really about whether a coach can or can't be successful here...we've seen success here that, from what I know of UNT's athletic history, is pretty well in keeping with the status quo...it's about you wanting everyone else to feel as shitty about our poor luck in life to be UNT supporters as you do. you're hoping Littrell and Jalie fail because of how it will reflect on RV because this whole strange crusade of yours has become 100% personal.

I get what you're saying...I just don't see any evidence to support the idea that these coaches were really hamstrung by RV. they were just shitty coaches.

UNT90 · March 30, 2016

And I'd ask CBL, where is Craig Helwig now? Did he go on to greater things as an AD of a najor program?

Not so much, buddy...:

http://www.neeley.tcu.edu/News_and_Events/Top_Stories/Articles/2015/Welcome_Craig_Helwig.aspx

Notice how he barely notes his time at UNT in that bio?

Also, Rick Villarreal has applied and been turned down for every AD job not associated with UNT in the last 10 years. Hell, even that craphole from which we stole the name craphole wouldn't hire him.

I wonder why?...

No, I don't.

Quoner · March 30, 2016

Two people who agree on 90% of an issue fighting fervently is probably one of the coolest things about being part of the Mean Green Nation.

UNT90 · March 30, 2016

7 minutes ago, Quoner said:

Two people who agree on 90% of an issue fighting fervently is probably one of the coolest things about being part of the Mean Green Nation.

It's kill the messenger. It's not the message, it's the method of delivery.

Quoner · March 30, 2016

16 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

It's kill the messenger. It's not the message, it's the method of delivery.

Yeah, but when you get a telegram, the delivery guy doesn't approach every door and person in your home to repeat the same thing over and over again after everyone has read the contents and nodded. I guess the Wag Tags of the world only offer so much of a foil, but it sure is getting boring.

greenminer · March 30, 2016

UNT90 · April 1, 2016

On March 30, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Quoner said:

Yeah, but when you get a telegram, the delivery guy doesn't approach every door and person in your home to repeat the same thing over and over again after everyone has read the contents and nodded. I guess the Wag Tags of the world only offer so much of a foil, but it sure is getting boring.

It's the off season. Beats the hell out of whatever the politically correct term is for "gay uniform thread talk."

On March 30, 2016 at 3:53 PM, greenminer said:

Too bad their aren't more Aholes in the UNT fan base, especially among 17 of them.

Army of Dad · April 2, 2016

On March 30, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Quoner said:

Yeah, but when you get a telegram, the delivery guy doesn't approach every door and person in your home to repeat the same thing over and over again after everyone has read the contents and nodded. I guess the Wag Tags of the world only offer so much of a foil, but it sure is getting boring.

You've gotten an actual telegram?

Quoner · April 2, 2016

14 hours ago, UNT90 said:

It's the off season. Beats the hell out of whatever the politically correct term is for "gay uniform thread talk."

Just went back through the football board from signing day to now. It was a quick scan, but not a single uniform thread, but plenty of locked ones started or ended by you, so that's gotta feel pretty good.

38 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

You've gotten an actual telegram?

Yeah. Impressed?

UNT90 · April 2, 2016

1 hour ago, Quoner said:

Just went back through the football board from signing day to now. It was a quick scan, but not a single uniform thread, but plenty of locked ones started or ended by you, so that's gotta feel pretty good.

Yeah. Impressed?

But they aren't locked because of me.

Interesting, eh?!