MGB: All quiet on the hoops front

edcollopy · March 15, 2016

We have to find a good X's and O's coach. As beloved as Johnny was here, he was not good at that either. Benford is just terrible at everything.

UNT90 · March 15, 2016

6 minutes ago, edcollopy said:

We have to find a good X's and O's coach. As beloved as Johnny was here, he was not good at that either. Benford is just terrible at everything.

This is correct.

Mo Green · March 16, 2016

5 hours ago, edcollopy said:

We have to find a good X's and O's coach. As beloved as Johnny was here, he was not good at that either. Benford is just terrible at everything.

BINGO!

Green P1 · March 16, 2016

2 hours ago, Mo Green said:

8 hours ago, edcollopy said:

We have to find a good X's and O's coach. As beloved as Johnny was here, he was not good at that either. Benford is just terrible at everything.

BINGO!

Right? If only that awful X's and O's coach could have drawn up the defense that prevented a guy from hitting that last second 3 with a guy in his face... He could have gotten us to 3 of 4 instead of just 2 of 3 of our school's tournament appearances... AIM HIGHER AND QUIT ACCEPTING NEVER SEEN BEFORE LEVELS OF SUCCESS

FirefightnRick · March 16, 2016

7 minutes ago, Green P1 said:

Right? If only that awful X's and O's coach could have drawn up the defense that prevented a guy from hitting that last second 3 with a guy in his face... He could have gotten us to 3 of 4 instead of just 2 of 3 of our school's tournament appearances... AIM HIGHER AND QUIT ACCEPTING NEVER SEEN BEFORE LEVELS OF SUCCESS

Guarding the inbounds pass and putting anyone to guard the shooter making him at least have to work it up court would have really helped too.

Rick

Ben Gooding · March 16, 2016

11 minutes ago, Green P1 said:

Right? If only that awful X's and O's coach could have drawn up the defense that prevented a guy from hitting that last second 3 with a guy in his face... He could have gotten us to 3 of 4 instead of just 2 of 3 of our school's tournament appearances... AIM HIGHER AND QUIT ACCEPTING NEVER SEEN BEFORE LEVELS OF SUCCESS

I see what you're doing defending JJ. He has been exposed as a coach in a conference not all that great. And levels of success? I believe Fairley Dickinson has 5 appearances to our 3. FGCU has like 4 times as many NCAA WINS to our 0.

Green P1 · March 16, 2016

RIGHT GUYS??? WE NEED TO EXPECT MOAR!!!

TheTastyGreek · March 16, 2016

35 minutes ago, Green P1 said:

RIGHT GUYS??? WE NEED TO EXPECT MOAR!!!

The only thing I know about anything is that if someone did it here, and it happened when I wasn't 20 years old... It wasn't worth a shit. And any other jackwad could come in and do even better, even if none has in 5 or 10 or 30 years.

That's just the way it is.

- - - - - - - - -

Serious request: I would like @DeepGreen or @FirefightnRick, who have mythologized Danny Kaspar (who I think is a good coach!) and complained about him not getting hired here, to explain to me why Kaspar is objectively such a good coach and JJ is an overrated underachiever.

Please explain to me why JJ is a lousy coach because he only made two NCAA tournaments in 11 years here, but Kaspar is a good coach because he made one in 13 years at SFA.

Please explain to me how JJ sucks for stuffing his schedule with lower conference teams and his records are hollow, while Kaspar is a good coach... Even though when you take away his non D1 wins, five of his seven 20 win seasons disappear.

Please explain to me why JJ is an underachiever for taking six years to make the postseason, when Kaspar didn't even make the NIT until year eight at SFA.

Please explain to me why JJ sucked against the Sun Belt, even though Kaspar plays an objectively diminished Sun Belt schedule and has as many sub .500 seasons in conference through three years as JJ had in his entire 11 year run.

Kaspar is a good coach. JJ is a good coach. Both have their flaws, both have their limitations, but I don't see how the case for one being an underachiever or a "low bar" doesn't completely invalidate any possible praise for the other. And at least two guys in this thread have talked up the successes of Kaspar (who is good! he's good! not saying he's not good!) while shitting on the achievements of Jones.

- - - - - - - -

It baffles and disappoints me that four years after the guy is gone, there still exists this need to denigrate what he achieved here. I'm not saying he's the greatest coach in NCAA history, but he's pretty damn good, way better than the average bear, and what he did here was something very, very special. At this point, my only hope is that I see something else like it again at least once more before I die of old age.

He took a program that had lost 20+ games again and again and again, and he won. Right away. And then he took us to the NCAA tournament, which had only happened once before in school history. Sure, we won our conference tournament to do it... But only one time out of the 30-odd chances to do that before and get there automatically worked out for us. And then, 3 years later, he did it with only one (one-legged) guy left over from the first time.

It didn't matter if we only had 6 guys even marginally healthy, it didn't matter if we had to start a freaking white walk-on for half the season, it didn't matter if two of the best three players on the team didn't make their grades. For five straight years, we had a fun, fun run. And that sixth year was pretty damn fun, too. We went to the tournament twice, we were five seconds away a 3rd time, and we were 58 seconds away a 4th time.

We hit six numbers out of seven on our lottery ticket, and we had a jackpot that our leadership immediately squandered after he was gone. Johnny Jones wasn't a billion dollar Powerball winning ticket, but that doesn't mean what he was here isn't a small miracle on its own.

You don't have to love the guy, though I don't know why anyone doesn't. But what he did here was special. Anyone who won't let themselves appreciate it for what it was should probably resign themselves to a lifetime of sports disappointment, because what we had, coming from where we were, playing in the league we were stuck in... It's amazing. Flat out amazing. And when you look around the college basketball landscape... Chances are much, much higher that we'll never get back there again than they are of ever consistently doing more.

TheTastyGreek · March 16, 2016

I got my "JJ wasn't really very good" threads confused.

I thought this post:

Was in this thread. Deep did post in this thread, too, but I got all the "JJ was an underwhelming guy" posts from the past few days smashed together.

Apologies, but the point still stands across threads.

oldguystudent · March 16, 2016

I think @TheTastyGreek needs to roll out his analysis of just how hard it is to get to the tournament again. It's not like going to a bowl game where 90% of the teams get to go play in a participation trophy game somewhere in the diesel fuel soaked outskirts of rural BFE. The tournament is 68 out of 351 teams, the vast majority of those from the big P5 (or basketball equivalent therein) conferences.

UNT90 · March 16, 2016

11 minutes ago, oldguystudent said:

I think @TheTastyGreek needs to roll out his analysis of just how hard it is to get to the tournament again. It's not like going to a bowl game where 90% of the teams get to go play in a participation trophy game somewhere in the diesel fuel soaked outskirts of rural BFE. The tournament is 68 out of 351 teams, the vast majority of those from the big P5 (or basketball equivalent therein) conferences.

You give great reasons for the superior level of product in college basketball than college football.

Quoner · March 16, 2016

On 3/14/2016 at 7:52 AM, Quoner said:

It's easy to forget, but there are lots of coaches not named Jones or Benford out there. I wish we had more reasons to talk about them.

/coughs in direction of Bonnie Brae

Ben Gooding · March 16, 2016

8 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

The only thing I know about anything is that if someone did it here, and it happened when I wasn't 20 years old... It wasn't worth a shit. And any other jackwad could come in and do even better, even if none has in 5 or 10 or 30 years.

That's just the way it is.

- - - - - - - - -

Serious request: I would like @DeepGreen or @FirefightnRick, who have mythologized Danny Kaspar (who I think is a good coach!) and complained about him not getting hired here, to explain to me why Kaspar is objectively such a good coach and JJ is an overrated underachiever.

Please explain to me why JJ is a lousy coach because he only made two NCAA tournaments in 11 years here, but Kaspar is a good coach because he made one in 13 years at SFA.

Please explain to me how JJ sucks for stuffing his schedule with lower conference teams and his records are hollow, while Kaspar is a good coach... Even though when you take away his non D1 wins, five of his seven 20 win seasons disappear.

Please explain to me why JJ is an underachiever for taking six years to make the postseason, when Kaspar didn't even make the NIT until year eight at SFA.

Please explain to me why JJ sucked against the Sun Belt, even though Kaspar plays an objectively diminished Sun Belt schedule and has as many sub .500 seasons in conference through three years as JJ had in his entire 11 year run.

Kaspar is a good coach. JJ is a good coach. Both have their flaws, both have their limitations, but I don't see how the case for one being an underachiever or a "low bar" doesn't completely invalidate any possible praise for the other. And at least two guys in this thread have talked up the successes of Kaspar (who is good! he's good! not saying he's not good!) while shitting on the achievements of Jones.

- - - - - - - -

It baffles and disappoints me that four years after the guy is gone, there still exists this need to denigrate what he achieved here. I'm not saying he's the greatest coach in NCAA history, but he's pretty damn good, way better than the average bear, and what he did here was something very, very special. At this point, my only hope is that I see something else like it again at least once more before I die of old age.

He took a program that had lost 20+ games again and again and again, and he won. Right away. And then he took us to the NCAA tournament, which had only happened once before in school history. Sure, we won our conference tournament to do it... But only one time out of the 30-odd chances to do that before and get there automatically worked out for us. And then, 3 years later, he did it with only one (one-legged) guy left over from the first time.

It didn't matter if we only had 6 guys even marginally healthy, it didn't matter if we had to start a freaking white walk-on for half the season, it didn't matter if two of the best three players on the team didn't make their grades. For five straight years, we had a fun, fun run. And that sixth year was pretty damn fun, too. We went to the tournament twice, we were five seconds away a 3rd time, and we were 58 seconds away a 4th time.

We hit six numbers out of seven on our lottery ticket, and we had a jackpot that our leadership immediately squandered after he was gone. Johnny Jones wasn't a billion dollar Powerball winning ticket, but that doesn't mean what he was here isn't a small miracle on its own.

You don't have to love the guy, though I don't know why anyone doesn't. But what he did here was special. Anyone who won't let themselves appreciate it for what it was should probably resign themselves to a lifetime of sports disappointment, because what we had, coming from where we were, playing in the league we were stuck in... It's amazing. Flat out amazing. And when you look around the college basketball landscape... Chances are much, much higher that we'll never get back there again than they are of ever consistently doing more.

You're comparing SFA and it's resources to UNT and it's resources as if the given is that all things are equal.

Mean_Green09 · March 16, 2016

2 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

You're comparing SFA and it's resources to UNT and it's resources as if the given is that all things are equal.

Id say when we are talking basketball resources they are pretty equal.

The Southland and the Sun Belt were pretty equal when it came to basketball competition too. The Southland had a couple of other really good teams during those 13 years. Sam Houston, UTSA, and Northwestern St.

CMJ · March 16, 2016

Beautiful post Tasty. Unless you're in a power league, or someone like a Wichita State or Butler (who is now in the Big East - which is still a power player in basketball) or Gonzaga...even making the tournament is tough.

untjim1995 · March 16, 2016

What JJ built here, after taking over a program that is every bit of where McCarney left football, is damn near miraculous. Nobody--and I mean nobody--should denigrate anything he accomplished in his time here. Was he great x's and o's coach? Not great, but he was good enough at it as a mid-major coach here to build success. He was a very good recruiter, which is also why he built success here. Johnny Jones left here after a long successful run to go coach in a power conference. Nobody else has done that at UNT in the three main sports since Hayden Fry in the late 70s. He built us into a winner, a team that drew 3000-4000 a night at an arena that holds 10,000 people. Today, we are thrilled to see a real crowd of over 2000. And, of course, we are thrilled to see our team finish near .500, which that pesky level has been reached once, and only because the OOC was completely dumbed down to a level not seen here in a revenue sport in years.

RV took a flyer on an assistant from Marquette, with Texas ties, that had a pedigree for being an ace recruiter. He gave the keys to the nice sedan we finally were able to afford to drive and he quickly totaled it.

If a new coach was hired today, with the talent that Benford has been able to bring here, it wouldn't take years to rebuild this thing, like it will Littrell in football or how it did for JJ after Vic Trilli was fired. A real coach could get us back into a winning record very quickly--that's the beautiful nature of college basketball. But, instead, we will keep the bad driver on as head coach, because its affordable, and we are keeping the AD in place because he provides access and is friendly with the people in charge.

I laugh, only because it feels better than to cry about it...

UNT'd

DeepGreen · March 17, 2016

JJ did a lot for UNT basketball during his coaching tenure. Yes, taking UNT to the NCAA's was an accomplishment, and I'm very grateful to JJ for getting us there. Still, he was not the best game manager during the regular season. I think we should be able to hire better coaches. I'll say it again, RV would hire JJ back because it's the easy thing to do. And if JJ didn't work out, RV would have the ultimate excuse- "that's who the fans wanted".

i just think there are better coaches out there.

as for Kaspar, it is my understanding that he wanted to interview for the job but was put on ignore by our AD. In my mind you just don't do that to an Alum who happensed to be a good basketball coach and did a good job at SFA.

TheTastyGreek · March 17, 2016

At the risk of stealing @CMJ's usual opening line... It's been 1222 days since Alabama-Huntsville.

More importantly, It's been a week, we've had at least 3 or 4 "no comment" articles from Vito. That's very telling to me.

A year ago, Fly said this:

If Benford were coming back, someone would have sheepishly given us the Things Need To Change fake hardass interview with Vito (or Sidway, or whoever) already. Back in 2009, even Dodge got the confirmed return just 4 days after that shitshow of a season ended.

I really think that this is finally, wonderfully, blissfully going to end. We might just be playing men's basketball again next year.

If Benford were sticking around, someone would have taken off his blindfold, put out his last cigarette, and dismissed the firing squad already. But they haven't. And I think it's because, with spring break on one hand and the financial situation given McCarney's earlier buyout on the other, we're just getting everything dotted and crossed to make the firing official.

This is going to end, and I think it probably gets quietly released this Friday, buried in the news by NCAA tournament weekend.

I think I might just update the recruiting forum.

UNT90 · March 17, 2016

7 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

At the risk of stealing @CMJ's usual opening line... It's been 1222 days since Alabama-Huntsville.

More importantly, It's been a week, we've had at least 3 or 4 "no comment" articles from Vito. That's very telling to me.

A year ago, Fly said this:

If Benford were coming back, someone would have sheepishly given us the Things Need To Change fake hardass interview with Vito (or Sidway, or whoever) already. Back in 2009, even Dodge got the confirmed return just 4 days after that shitshow of a season ended.

I really think that this is finally, wonderfully, blissfully going to end. We might just be playing men's basketball again next year.

If Benford were sticking around, someone would have taken off his blindfold, put out his last cigarette, and dismissed the firing squad already. But they haven't. And I think it's because, with spring break on one hand and the financial situation given McCarney's earlier buyout on the other, we're just getting everything dotted and crossed to make the firing official.

This is going to end, and I think it probably gets quietly released this Friday, buried in the news by NCAA tournament weekend.

I think I might just update the recruiting forum.

I doubt the veracity of what you quoted, but everything else you said makes sense. I so so so so so hope you are right.

Of course, then there is the problem of the person who is going to make the next hire.

FirefightnRick · March 18, 2016

16 hours ago, UNT90 said:

I doubt the veracity of what you quoted, but everything else you said makes sense. I so so so so so hope you are right.

Of course, then there is the problem of the person who is going to make the next hire.

Tire deflates.....

Rick