UNT is Now a Carnegie Doctoral University: Highest Research Activity (R1)

Cerebus · February 2, 2016

Just now, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

I'm just saying that R1 is one part of the equation in determining who is a Tier One, Top Tier, or Nationally Competitive Research University.

What I am trying to clarify is that IN TEXAS there is now a way for institutions to access a small part of the Permanent University Fund (PUF, ~$13 BILLION). In order to do so an institution has to reach certain qualifications set in HB 51,

$400M Endowment
200 PHDs awarded each year on a rolling average
$45M in Restricted Research Funds on a rolling average
"Freshman class with High Academic Achievement"
"A commitment to high-quality graduate education"
(this one is important to our discussion) Membership in the Association of Research Libraries or having a chapter of the honor society Phi Beta Kappa on campus OR an "equivalent"

You HAVE to hit the restricted funding average, and then get 3 out of the remaining 5. What UH has argued to the Leg is that R1 is equivalent to the sixth criteria, but so far they have no luck with that argument.

So for right now R1 has zero bearing on "Tier One."

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Right. But for all intents and purposes, when UNT says we're striving for "Tier One" status, it's the one Cerebus is referring to regarding State PUF funding.

Yes, because to paraphrase Zero Mostel in The Producers: "We. WANT. THAT MONEY."

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 2, 2016

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Right. But for all intents and purposes, when UNT says we're striving for "Tier One" status, it's the one Cerebus is referring to regarding State PUF funding.

9 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

What I am trying to clarify is that IN TEXAS there is now a way for institutions to access a small part of the Permanent University Fund (PUF, ~$13 BILLION). In order to do so an institution has to reach certain qualifications set in HB 51,

$400M Endowment

200 PHDs awarded each year on a rolling average

$45M in Restricted Research Funds on a rolling average

"Freshman class with High Academic Achievement"

"A commitment to high-quality graduate education"

(this one is important to our discussion) Membership in the Association of Research Libraries or having a chapter of the honor society Phi Beta Kappa on campus OR an "equivalent"

You HAVE to hit the restricted funding average, and then get 3 out of the remaining 5. What UH has argued to the Leg is that R1 is equivalent to the sixth criteria, but so far they have no luck with that argument.

So for right now R1 has zero bearing on "Tier One."

Exactly, I never mentioned those benchmarks. I was discussing what is generally regarded NATIONALLY to be considered a Tier One University or whatever you want to call it. The Texas PUF funding legislation derives it's name from this national recognition, which currently only has 3 schools that are designated nationally as "Tier One" from the State of Texas. In their discussions and committee meetings they mention that California has 9 nationally, so the entire point is to propel more Texas schools to this national designation. One part of that national designation is generally considered the R1 Status combined with other requirements. The Texas funding, obtained by meeting those benchmarks, helps schools try to reach these requirements.

I don't know what we are arguing about :O

Edited February 2, 2016 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

MeanGreenTexan · February 2, 2016

2 minutes ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Exactly, I never mentioned those benchmarks. I was discussing what is generally regarded NATIONALLY to be considered a Tier One University or whatever you want to call it. The Texas PUF funding legislation derives it's name from this national recognition, which currently only has 3 schools that are designated nationally from the State of Texas. In their discussions and committee meetings they mention that California has 9 nationally, so the entire point is to propel more Texas schools to this national designation. One part of that national designation is generally considered the R1 Status combined with other requirements. The Texas funding, obtained by meeting those benchmarks, helps schools try to reach these requirements.

I don't know what we are arguing about :O

Not arguing. You're presenting more facts. These are good.
I'm just trying to bring it back to gmg.com standards. We can only understand one "Tier One" as evidenced by the same question being asked a few times already. Just baselining.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 2, 2016

Just now, MeanGreenTexan said:

Not arguing. You're presenting more facts. These are good.
I'm just trying to bring it back to gmg.com standards. We can only understand one "Tier One" as evidenced by the same question being asked a few times already. Just baselining.

I know, I'm just kidding. This is great news though. Cerebrus probably knows more on the subject than I do but I just wanted to throw in that the R1 status is also considered 1/3rd of what would make a school considered "Tier One" nationally. We are just getting mixed up in terminology and such.

Cerebus · February 2, 2016

1 minute ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

I don't know what we are arguing about :O

You keep saying "Nationally Tier One." I have no idea what the heck that means. Texas does not say there are 3 "national tier one" universities in Texas, Texas says there are three "Texas Tier One" institution based on the criteria in TEXAS House Bill 51. When they mention 9 universities in California they mean those 9 universities have reached 4 out of those 6 criteria, but as they are not in Texas they have no access to the PUF. They are just setting a baseline.

"National Tier One" is such a murky subject. I stay away from it. Some would argue getting R1 status would make you "nationally tier one", some would say that is not enough. I also have no idea how NT could ever get to "National tier one" status because we would never get anyone to agree what that means.

When I say "Tier One" all I mean is reaching the criteria set aside in HB 51. That is all I am trying to clarify. I don't think we have anything to argue about, just clarifying what I am saying because people asked SPECIFICALLY about "Tier One" as it relates to HB 51.

2 minutes ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Cerebrus probably knows more on the subject than I do but I just wanted to throw in that the R1 status is also considered 1/3rd of what would make a school considered "Tier One" nationally.

Based on whose standards? What are the other two criteria? What does it get us. "National Tier One" isn't defined by anything. "Texas Tier One" is, that is all I am trying to clarify.

DeepGreen · February 2, 2016

Does this mean we are not really a little teachers college?

Cerebus · February 2, 2016

Just now, DeepGreen said:

Does this mean we are not really a little teachers college?

We still have an incredible College of Education, it just means that college is apart of a prestigious Carnegie R1 level research university. Best of both worlds.

physics90 · February 2, 2016

3 minutes ago, DeepGreen said:

Does this mean we are not really a little teachers college?

We are a BIG teachers college.

bloodstunt · February 2, 2016

27 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Right. But for all intents and purposes, when UNT says we're striving for "Tier One" status, it's the one Cerebus is referring to regarding State PUF funding.

This is a big step in that direction.

MeanGreenTexan · February 2, 2016

3 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

We still have an incredible College of Education, it just means that college is apart of a prestigious Carnegie R1 level research university. Best of both worlds.

Think of UNT's College of Education on a national level like how you would think about our College of Music. Pretty darn prestigious.

greenit · February 2, 2016

A LOT of people refer to the USN&WR terminology of the top ~200 universities according to their ranking criteria. They refer to these universities as 'Tier One' and refer to anyone below that classification as RNP (ranking not published).

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 2, 2016

1 minute ago, Cerebus said:

You keep saying "Nationally Tier One." I have no idea what the heck that means. Texas does not say there are 3 "national tier one" universities in Texas, Texas says there are three "Texas Tier One" institution based on the criteria in TEXAS House Bill 51. When they mention 9 universities in California they mean those 9 universities have reached 4 out of those 6 criteria, but as they are not in Texas they have no access to the PUF. They are just setting a baseline.

"National Tier One" is such a murky subject. I stay away from it. Some would argue getting R1 status would make you "nationally tier one", some would say that is not enough. I also have no idea how NT could ever get to "National tier one" status because we would never get anyone to agree what that means.

When I say "Tier One" all I mean is reaching the criteria set aside in HB 51. That is all I am trying to clarify. I don't think we have anything to argue about, just clarifying what I am saying because people asked SPECIFICALLY about "Tier One" as it relates to HB 51.

It is murky, no one really has a definition for it. However, most sources say it is R1 status, American Association of University membership, and the other I can't remember. 3 schools in Texas meet that benchmark along with 9 from California. I think the goal in general is just creating more nationally prominent universities in Texas.

"Essentially, the name refers to the country’s top research-focused universities, also referred to as “national research universities.” But some of the benchmarks to be considered part of that group are not clear or rely purely on perception — which can be difficult to change."

" To gain access to the biggest chunk of money, the schools must meet certain criteria, which is the closest we have to what "tier one" means for Texas."

http://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/04/texplainer-whats-a-tier-one-university/

Cerebus · February 2, 2016

1 minute ago, greenit said:

A LOT of people refer to the USN&WR terminology of the top ~200 universities according to their ranking criteria. They refer to these universities as 'Tier One' and refer to anyone below that classification as RNP (ranking not published).

Actually the USN&WR rankings were discussed in committee while HB 51 was being hammered out, it was not part of the final bill.

1 minute ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

" To gain access to the biggest chunk of money, the schools must meet certain criteria, which is the closest we have to what "tier one" means for Texas."

http://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/04/texplainer-whats-a-tier-one-university/

Yes, those "certain criteria" are:

Quote

$400M Endowment

200 PHDs awarded each year on a rolling average

$45M in Restricted Research Funds on a rolling average

"Freshman class with High Academic Achievement"

"A commitment to high-quality graduate education"

(this one is important to our discussion) Membership in the Association of Research Libraries or having a chapter of the honor society Phi Beta Kappa on campus OR an "equivalent"

You HAVE to hit the restricted funding average, and then get 3 out of the remaining 5.

R1 status, AAU, USN&WR rankings have zero to do with it. Hit the restricted research finding average, hit 3 out of the other 5, that is what makes you a Tier One.

Tyler Maryak · February 2, 2016

I am Tier One.

Stix · February 2, 2016

About a year or so ago, UH was plastering Houston with billboards about becoming Tier 1. Perhaps this is what they were talking about.

I hope that NT does the same, plastering DFW with billboards.

Graddean · February 2, 2016

USN&WR are not as prestigious in the academic world as the Carnegie classification. This is great news for alumni and students. I agree with the assessment of the College of Education, but it is equally true of other programs on campus. After al my undergraduate degree had more hours in science than education.

Cerebus · February 2, 2016

Just a small correction. HB 51 created six criteria, four of which had to be met in order to be considered a Texas "Tier One" institution. Those six criteria were:

Have at least a $400 million endowment.
Award at least 200 doctorate of philosophy degrees per year.
Have high-achieving freshman classes.
Be recognized for scholarship and research.
Have a high-quality faculty.
Have excellent graduate education.

The first two are quantitative goals. The last four are qualitative. The Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board (THECB) was given the power to decide what those last four actually meant. For example: They decided that "Be recognized for scholarship and research" meant "Membership in the Association of Research Libraries or having a chapter of the honor society Phi Beta Kappa on campus OR an equivalent.

The only tie in Carnegie R1 has to Texas Tier One is that UH has tried to argue to the THECB that R1 status was a equivalent requirement to the ARL/Phi Beta Kappa criteria. So far the THECB has not agreed to that. Personally I think that is a little strange, since there are 125 members of ARL and almost 300 chapters of Phi Beta Kappa, but that isn't my decision.

Also, this is the last post I make about Tier One in this thread as we are derailing what should be a Carnegie R1 celebration. If anyone has any questions about it, PM me.

forevereagle · February 2, 2016

This is a fantastic achievement! Do we know if UNT is pursing AAU membership? I am hoping that we keep going to try to gain prestige by pursing other recognition.

oldguystudent · February 2, 2016

3 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

This is a fantastic achievement! Do we know if UNT is pursing AAU membership? I am hoping that we keep going to try to gain prestige by pursing other recognition.

AAU has 62 members. Considerably more exclusive. Membership is by invitation only.

Quote

AAU membership is by invitation only, which requires an affirmative vote of three-fourths of current members. Invitations are considered periodically, based in part on an assessment of the breadth and quality of university programs of research and graduate education, as well as undergraduate education. The association ranks its members using four criteria: research spending, the percentage of faculty who are members of the National Academies, faculty awards, and citations. Two thirds of members can vote to revoke membership for poor rankings.

Cerebus · February 2, 2016

Just now, forevereagle said:

This is a fantastic achievement! Do we know if UNT is pursing AAU membership? I am hoping that we keep going to try to gain prestige by pursing other recognition.

I don't know specifically if NT is looking into AAU membership. That is a tough nut to crack. Only sixty universities in the US and 3 in Texas (Rice, UT, aTm) are members.

I do know NT is pursuing a Phi Beta Kappa chapter. I know that NT Libraries had a master plan which included seeking membership in ARL, but I don't know if those plans were put into action or are just conceptional at this stage.

17 minutes ago, Graddean said:

After al my undergraduate degree had more hours in science than education.

A Computer Science degree is actually a Math degree. Don't tell the CSCI undergrads or they will panic.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 2, 2016

1 minute ago, oldguystudent said:

AAU has 62 members. Considerably more exclusive. Membership is by invitation only.

Yes, this should be a goal for our prominence nationally but will be difficult. The schools designated by Texas to be Tier One are also members of AAU and R1 which are national recognitions.. That's all I was trying to say.

I'll defer to Cerebrus though and say that we should just celebrate this achievement for now because it is great news. Hopefully USN&WR ranking follows suit because of applicant perception.

Ben Gooding · February 2, 2016

2 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

And after years of neglecting their alumni, this is a massive uphill climb. This is where something like fantastic football would act as a shot in the arm.

And I'd like to think that Smastrek is aware of this and changes at the right level happens next.

letsgiveacheer · February 2, 2016

Not surprisingly, about 33 of the R1 schools do not play FBS football.

oldguystudent · February 2, 2016

A glaring difference I'm seeing between UNT and the "Tier 1" schools (or more accurately, the top 100 in USN&WR) is acceptance rate. UNT is at 62%. It needs to shave about 20-25 points off that. This isn't a place that kids are competing to get into just yet.