How Do You Recruit to UNT?

[Mike Jackson]

I have been monitoring the board more frequently now that we are getting really close to signing day and I am confused.  I am confused because I am reading all these posts from disappointed fans.  When I superficially evaluate FBS programs I look at this like brands.  The most powerful factor in recruiting in my humble option is a combination of the school's athletic/academic brand and the head coach's brand.  I have seen criticism of every coach we have had since 2000 including Darrell Dickey.  UNT will always be able to get players but how do you get some players to choose UNT over our geographical G5 level rivals?  Cause simplistically that is what it comes down to:  Can you get the recruit with offers from Tulsa, UTSA, SMU and/or Texas State to come UNT?  I think is clear to this point that Seth does not have a unique brand that winning over recruits with multiple FBS level offers.  That is no shot at Seth because you can count those coaches on your hands.  And you have to offer those guys an insanely high salary to even accept an interview here.  No one has really knocked our socks off here when it comes to recruiting since maybe Hayden Frye?  Everyone else has been bad or at best respectable.  We don't have athletic department that seems to have the first clue about building a brand or making the game day experience at Apogee unique.   So until then I will judge recruiting classes by season that preceded them.   This is not a defense of Seth but a serious question, if you were Seth what do you think you could do better?  I want to know and hopefully if it is good Seth or someone on his staff will read it.

 

[UNT90]

8 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

if you were Seth what do you think you could do better?  I want to know and hopefully if it is good Seth or someone on his staff will read it.

 

If I were Littrell, I would demand my immediate supervisor be fired. 

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Its up to Littrell to figure out the how. This is why I wanted someone who had been successful as a head coach in this situation before. Insead we got a guy that has always had a P5 edge. 

Another problem is the athletic department plays a huge roll in recruiting (especially during player visits). Anyone really comfortable that Littrell gets any type of edge there? I would think not.

He will either sink or swim with little to no help from his AD. I really really really hope he is a quick learner.

[Got5onIt]

If I were Seth, I'd continue to heavily hit areas outside of DFW. UNT football has been a laughingstock in DFW for over a decade. Even during the SBC bowl runs, respect was hard to come by. Throw the success of TCU into the mix and T-shirt fans have a 3rd shirt in their rotation to wear behind UT & aTm. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Got5onIt

[GrandGreen]

I'll answer your question, there is no reason that NT should not be more than competitive against those mentioned schools.  

[eulessismore]

I think that one thing that might help would be for us as alumni to be more informative as to how UNT contributed to whatever success we claim in life; honestly, I'm glad I studied geography at UNT, even if it was at a time before the technology evolved to make it a marketable career path for GIS professionals.  I'm sure that many who studied music, visual arts, and emergency planning, as dismissively as some of those standout programs have been mentioned even here on this board lately, could pass along something positive.  Hell, think of what going to UNT has done to improve your life and pass along a little useful information to others who may be considering the place.

Edited January 28, 2016 by eulessismore

[Green Lantern]

Beyond the football side of things, they have to learn how to sell Denton to a kid. Most of us that had great experiences in an awesome college town like Denton understand why it's such a desirable choice for young college students. Many of the members of our recent staffs didn't seem ingrained in the community and I don't think knew how to seperate ourselves in regards to other strengths that we do have over G5 peer programs in much less desirable locations.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Green Lantern

[Mike Jackson]

40 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I'll answer your question, there is no reason that NT should not be more than competitive against those mentioned schools.  

I have a reason for you I very long history of losing at the FBS level.  Losing records against almost every other FBS program mentioned on this board.  There less than 15 team we have played more than 4 times and have an above 41% winning percentage against. 

 

"So you are considering UNT son?  Well let me tell you we usually beat them"  

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Mike Jackson

[Withers940]

I'd hire Jamie Foxx as my HS cordinatore and then the skies the limit. 

[TheWestie]

52 minutes ago, Withers940 said:

I'd hire Jamie Foxx former UNT football player and alum Stone Cold Steve Austin as my HS coordinator and then the skies the limit. 

 

[GrandGreen]

1 hour ago, Mike Jackson said:

I have a reason for you I very long history of losing at the FBS level.  Losing records against almost every other FBS program mentioned on this board.  There less than 15 team we have played more than 4 times and have an above 41% winning percentage against. 

 

"So you are considering UNT son?  Well let me tell you we usually beat them"  

 

 

I doubt history means much to an eighteen year old past the last 5 years or so.   NT must recruit  against their recent record, just like any other team; so it is a disadvantage shared by most teams with new coaches.  

There are a lot of fans on this site that seem to think NT is doomed by tradition, culture, branding or a lot of other excuses for continued poor performance on the football field.  I don't believe that and I have suffered through a lot more bad NT football than the vast majority who post here.  

Football can be turned around rather quickly.  A good example is that Arkansas State, ULL and NT all had similar records of years of losing in the Belt and changed coaches at the end of 2010.  ULL hired Mark Hudspeth, Arkansas State hired Hugh Freeze, and NT McCarney.  Both ASU and ULL who had much worst Belt histories than NT, almost immediately turned around their programs.  This was not history or resources, they made good hires and NT did not.  

[MeanGreen22]

3 hours ago, Got5onIt said:

If I were Seth, I'd continue to heavily hit areas outside of DFW. UNT football has been a laughingstock in DFW for over a decade. Even during the SBC bowl runs, respect was hard to come by. Throw the success of TCU into the mix and T-shirt fans have a 3rd shirt in their rotation to wear behind UT & aTm. 

That's actually not a bad idea. Recruit kids outside of the DFW as your base. The kids around Dallas only know UNT as a laughingstock of a football team, kids outside of Texas probably don't know enough to draw that strong of an opinion. You get the ship rolling in the right way, kids start taking the program seriously, and we start winning some of these battles we're losing. 

[FirefightnRick]

Respect was not hard to come by during our bowl years.  We recruited some of our best players during that time and had a player on the front cover of Dave Campbell's.  That same issue had a nice feature inside about our program and claimed that of the entire state of Texas Dickey was getting the most out of his program with the least tools to do it with.  

 

Rick

[GOMG2013]

These recruiting sites have made all us fans think we know something about recruiting.  We want kids that are rated and want to beat out other schools.  I haven't met a coach or college scout that puts a lot of merit in those sites and area top 100 lists though.  They mainly look at those sites to keep up with offers, but trust their own evaluation and board.

We look at it and say why aren't we going after this guy?  Well a good college recruiting staff should know a lot more about a recruit before his name even hits those sites.  

Schools like UNT are in a tough spot because even if they have a good read on a JR in high school, of he blows up, the big schools are coming.  The recruiting sites make it even harder for small schools to hide a diamond in the rough now.  Most of the G5 and low P5 scouts I have talked to would rather guys they are looking at to not even be ranked by those sites for fear of the big schools.

Pipelines are very important.  To get some kids that eventually become 3 stars, you have to be on them early.  The earlier and longer you showed intrest in a recruit, the better your chances of beating out a school in a bigger conference.  Some kids will appreciate that you been with them the whole time.

Seems like litrells strategy is to find diamonds in the rough for now.  Maybe it changes if he starts winning.  He would rather find a solid unknown prospect and establish a pipeline than to get the remaining scraps in a metro area.  He and his staff seem to have a lot of faith in their ability to coach and develop talent.  

[Sig381]

With our recent past records I am delighted that anyone whats to come a play for us.

[foutsrouts]

I'll play, but they'll have to give me a new identity. It might come to that if things don't pick up pronto.

[UNT90]

2 hours ago, GOMG2013 said:

These recruiting sites have made all us fans think we know something about recruiting.  We want kids that are rated and want to beat out other schools.  I haven't met a coach or college scout that puts a lot of merit in those sites and area top 100 lists though.  They mainly look at those sites to keep up with offers, but trust their own evaluation and board.

We look at it and say why aren't we going after this guy?  Well a good college recruiting staff should know a lot more about a recruit before his name even hits those sites.  

Schools like UNT are in a tough spot because even if they have a good read on a JR in high school, of he blows up, the big schools are coming.  The recruiting sites make it even harder for small schools to hide a diamond in the rough now.  Most of the G5 and low P5 scouts I have talked to would rather guys they are looking at to not even be ranked by those sites for fear of the big schools.

Pipelines are very important.  To get some kids that eventually become 3 stars, you have to be on them early.  The earlier and longer you showed intrest in a recruit, the better your chances of beating out a school in a bigger conference.  Some kids will appreciate that you been with them the whole time.

Seems like litrells strategy is to find diamonds in the rough for now.  Maybe it changes if he starts winning.  He would rather find a solid unknown prospect and establish a pipeline than to get the remaining scraps in a metro area.  He and his staff seem to have a lot of faith in their ability to coach and develop talent.  

^^^^

Typical post from a fan of a team with a crappy recruiting class. There were several of these in2014 and 2012.

Then UNT went 1-11 last year. 

This staff needs to do better, and they know it.

[outoftown]

Well, I want an 70-90% high school signee approach, even if you can't always get the talent level that you want. But it is crucial for long term building. If I have seen anything, then it is that the transfer, JC route doesn't really work out at a higher clip than the HS route, whether at NT nor anywhere else. And I want that for all positions: QB, WR, RB, OL, DL, LB and DB. Right now we seem to not be signing (or even recruiting) any linemen out of High school, not even the kind that has to be developed first. 

I am fine with going and taking players from smaller high schools that are not rated highly if you have to. But generally even at NT there should be no reason not get into battles with teams like ULM, La-tech, UTEP, UTSA, SMU and Tx State. When those teams are on a recruit we have interest in, it really should not be a deterrent. And then get on the denton talent early. You may not pull many, but a 4 star who want stay home may fall to UNT every other year or so, that would already be worth the effort

[Eagleisland]

1 minute ago, outoftown said:

Well, I want an 70-90% high school signee approach, even if you can't always get the talent level that you want. But it is crucial for long term building. If I have seen anything, then it is that the transfer, JC route doesn't really work out at a higher clip than the HS route, whether at NT nor anywhere else. And I want that for all positions: QB, WR, RB, OL, DL, LB and DB. Right now we seem to not be signing (or even recruiting) any linemen out of High school, not even the kind that has to be developed first. 

I am fine with going and taking players from smaller high schools that are not rated highly if you have to. But generally even at NT there should be no reason not get into battles with teams like ULM, La-tech, UTEP, UTSA, SMU and Tx State. When those teams are on a recruit we have interest in, it really should not be a deterrent. And then get on the denton talent early. You may not pull many, but a 4 star who want stay home may fall to UNT every other year or so, that would already be worth the effort

I have no problem with any recruit from any level IF the coaches have a real eye for hidden and potential talent. Time will tell if our new staff has this ability. I certainly hope so, especially this year, when a somewhat late start means we may have to find "hidden" gems.

[bloodstunt]

Get in deep and tight with the High School coaches. Go after the guys who got looked over by the team they grew up wanting to play for because they are an inch too short, 10 lbs too light or 1 second too slow but play with an edge. Go after the guys who aren't heavily recruited at their playing position but have the talent to play another position. Do those things and you can build a competitive team, a competitive team will allow you to then steal a better recruit here and there.

[NTAlum09]

Find tough kids who need a college scholarship rather than the soft entitled ones.

[Got5onIt]

7 hours ago, FirefightnRick said:

Respect was not hard to come by during our bowl years.  We recruited some of our best players during that time and had a player on the front cover of Dave Campbell's.  That same issue had a nice feature inside about our program and claimed that of the entire state of Texas Dickey was getting the most out of his program with the least tools to do it with.  

 

Rick

Looking back, DD accomplished more at NT than Teflon Todd or Mac. I know that's a tough pill for some here to swallow. Was he RV's hire? 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Got5onIt

[Cerebus]

Dickey has a lot less to recruit to and he managed to pull in 12 DaMN State Top 100s.   At the time he did that we were in the Sun Belt, playing in Fouts, sharing the PEB weight room, had no meeting rooms big enough for the entire team to meet in, and our last winning season in the top division was the 6-5 mark IN THE 1980 SEASON.

Either Dickey was the greatest recruiter we have ever had, or the later coaches under performed.  

9 minutes ago, Got5onIt said:

Looking back, DD accomplished more at NT than Teflon Todd or Mac. I know that's a tough pill for some here to swallow. Was he RV's hire? 

He was hired by Helwig.  

Edited January 28, 2016 by Cerebus

[Got5onIt]

17 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Dickey has a lot less to recruit to and he managed to pull in 12 DaMN State Top 100s.   At the time he did that we were in the Sun Belt, playing in Fouts, sharing the PEB weight room, had no meeting rooms big enough for the entire team to meet in, and our last winning season in the top division was the 6-5 mark IN THE 1980 SEASON.

Either Dickey was the greatest recruiter we have ever had, or the later coaches under performed.  

He was hired by Helwig.  

I'll always have an appreciation for him. My years at NT started during his SBC bowl runs. Those teams were tough as nails and played smashmouth football.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

12 hours ago, Got5onIt said:

If I were Seth, I'd continue to heavily hit areas outside of DFW. UNT football has been a laughingstock in DFW for over a decade. Even during the SBC bowl runs, respect was hard to come by. Throw the success of TCU into the mix and T-shirt fans have a 3rd shirt in their rotation to wear behind UT & aTm. 

I'm with you on this, especially surrounding states. We've been trying to tap into the DFW talent for years and the myth that there is enough talent here for everyone just hasn't turned out to be true. I think you are more likely to find an overlooked kid in Oklahoma or another surrounding state than DFW. LaTech has been successful at getting Shreveport talent after LSU gets their share. We have to wait to get our share after every P5 in the country gets their share. 

[HarringtonFishSmeller]

What Rick said about Dickey.  But, like McCarney, he ran into a QB problem is final two seasons.

No matter how many losses you think about over the past 11 seasons, I still think there was none more shocking than the 54-2 beating we took from Tulsa in the 2005 home openers after having been to four bowl games in a row. 

At that point, and almost every year since then, offensive production has been a huge problem:

POINTS FOR SINCE DICKEY'S HIRE

414 - 2013, McCarney
358 - 2003, Dickey
326 - 2014, McCarney
319 - 2009, Dodge
309 - 2004, Dickey
298 - 2007, Dodge
298 - 2011, McCarney
287 - 2010, Dodge/Canales
275 - 2001, Dickey
251 - 2012, McCarney
249 - 2002, Dickey
240 - 2008, Dodge
182 - 2015, McCarney/Canales
173 - 1998, Dickey
162 - 2000, Dickey
157 - 2005, Dickey
154 - 2006, Dickey
118 - 1999, Dickey

 

Yes, it's true - only once during the Dickey/Dodge/McCarney/(Canales) Era covering 18 seasons, have we averaged more than 30 points per game:  McCarney's 2013.

Top Five
2013: 31.8, McCarney
2003: 27.5, Dickey
2014: 27.2, McCarney
2009: 26.6, Dodge
2004: 25.8, Dickey

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by HarringtonFishSmeller