Campus carry policy under review, restrictions pending

[Skipper]

Evan McAlister | @evan_McAlister

Haley Yates | @haleysocoollike

The university’s campus carry policy is under review by the Board of Regents and could set up restrictions for those visiting the campus.

But it acknowledges concerns from those opposed to the Texas law.

The preliminary policy establishes gun-free zones, allowed by the Texas Legislature. People will not be able to carry at the UNT Police Department, nor will there be weapons where minors are present, like McConnell Hall or the UNT Kristin Farmer Autism Center.

The university hopes guns will not be allowed at sporting events, but CHL holders will be able to carry at sports arenas when games are not being played. UNT does not want CHL holders to carry at the University Union.

“I would prefer not having CHL on campus, but that’s not an option,” UNT president Neal Smatresk said. “That said, I think we have done the best we can, and after this is applied, like many other things in life, it’ll just become part of the background and we won’t really be thinking about it a lot.”

Based on the current draft, students with a CHL who live on campus will be required to keep their handguns in a safe inside their room. Parents and non-residents must keep their firearms on them at all times and handguns in the room safe.

Universities in Texas must aim to comply with the law while ensuring the public’s safety concerns are met. Smatresk and the Task Force are developing an internal policy based off the legislation’s suggestions on how to execute campus carry.

“While most people perceive strong negatives associated with this in universities, we should be aware that if there are situations that arise, we should be ready to use them to our advantage, as well as any other means available to us,” Smatresk said.

The Task Force is currently working on a series of trainings on crisis and conflict management in the event of a CHL-related emergency. Smatresk hopes students will take advantage of programs that will allow them to be proactive about their personal safety and awareness.

“We hear students cry for help and sometimes that’s more serious,” Smatresk said. “Sometimes it’s whimsical, and sometimes it’s urgent and should be attended to. How we deal with a student that is experiencing that crisis is something that I feel every campus in the United States needs to get better at.”

Some students are concerned about the new law and are fearful about weapons being allowed on campus.

“I’m personally not a fan of campus carry,” converged broadcast media junior Olivia Flores said. “When I found out that it passed, I was terrified. No guns on campus, except for those on policemen, would make me feel safe.”

Smatresk also believes more officers visible on campus will enhance the community’s sense of security.

“We want to make sure that our campus officers are visible,” he said. “I believe that chief Reynolds runs an incredibly professional and very good organization for college students.”

Featured Image: UNT biology freshman Austin Rodgers asks a prepared question during the first town hall style forum on campus carry at the Gateway Center. Kristen Watson | DRC

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[Cerebus]

NT: 04.001 Carrying Concealed Guns on Campus

Quote

Policies of the University of North Texas  
 Chapter 04 
Administration 
 
 
04.001 Carrying Concealed Guns on Campus 
 

 
Policy Statement.  The University of North Texas is committed to providing a safe environment for students, faculty, staff, and visitors, and to respecting the right of individuals who are licensed to carry a handgun where permitted by law.  Individuals who are licensed to carry may do so on campus premises except in locations and at Activities prohibited by law or by this policy.   
Application of Policy.  All faculty, staff, students, guests, and visitors; and individuals and organizations doing business on or on behalf of the University of North Texas.  This policy does not apply to commissioned peace officers as defined in article 2.12 of the Texas Code of Criminal Procedures. 
Definitions.   
1. Activities.  “Activities” means all functions, events, and programs on the University of North Texas campus premises.   

2. Biological Hazard.  “Biological Hazard,” for purposes of this policy, means a biological substance used in research or experimentation that poses a threat to the health of a living organism, primarily that of a human, and is classified as biosafety level (BSL) 3 or 4 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.  Biological hazards can include medical waste or samples of microorganisms. 

3. Campus Premises.  “Campus Premises” means all land, buildings and portions of buildings owned or leased by the University.   

4. Campus Housing.  “Campus Housing” means a residential facility owned or leased and operated by the University and located on the campus premises. 

5. Collegiate Sports.  “Collegiate Sports” means intercollegiate, club, and intramural athletic activities occurring on the campus premises. 

6. Concealed Handgun.  “Concealed Handgun” means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly noticeable to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person. 

7. Days.  “Days” means business days. 

8. Employee.  “Employee” means an individual at any component of the University of North Texas System, who is hired in a full-time, part-time, or temporary capacity in a faculty or staff position or in a position where the individual is required to be a student as a condition of employment. 

9. Handgun.  “Handgun” means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand. 

10. Interscholastic Event.  “Interscholastic Event” means a function or program involving elementary or secondary schools. 

11. Large-scale Event.  “Large-scale Event” means a function or event, other than a classroom or academic program, where attendance is reasonably anticipated to exceed 200 individuals.   

12. License Holder.  “License Holder” means a person issued a License to Carry a handgun (formerly called a “Concealed Handgun License”) by the Texas Department of Public Safety under Chapter 411 of the Texas Government Code.   

13. Private Residential Room.  “Private Residential Room” means a room that is capable of being locked by the occupant to whom it is assigned, and no other access to the bedroom space is available through a suite bathroom or other shared space.   

14. Reviewing Official.  “Reviewing Official” means the University official designated by the President to review a decision to temporarily restrict the carrying of concealed handguns on the campus premises. 

15. Store.  “Store” means to take steps that a reasonable person would take to prevent the access to a firearm, including but not limited to placing a firearm in a locked container.  For purposes of this policy, a firearm that is temporarily rendered inoperable by use of a trigger lock or other means is not stored. 

16. Work Area.  “Work area” means the place or places an individual performs assigned duties as an employee of a component of the University of North Texas System.   

Procedures and Responsibilities.   
I. Open Carry Prohibited.  All persons, including License Holders, are prohibited from openly carrying a handgun on the campus premises, including on any public driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage or other parking area on the campus premises.   

II. Carrying of Concealed Handgun by a License Holder.   

A. Right to Carry.  A License Holder may carry a concealed handgun while on the campus premises (including public driveways, streets, sidewalks or walkways, parking lots, parking garages and other parking areas) and in University of North Texas passenger transportation vehicles, unless prohibited by state or federal law, or by this policy.  License Holders are responsible for knowing areas where carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited where notice is not required to be posted. 

B. Intoxication.  A License Holder may not carry a concealed handgun while intoxicated. 

C. Display of Concealed Handgun.  A License Holder may not carry a partially or wholly visible handgun, or intentionally or knowingly display a handgun in plain view of another person, even if holstered, on the campus premises, including public driveways, streets, sidewalks or walkways, parking lots, parking garages or other parking areas on the premises of the University of North Texas.   

D. Requirement to Display License.  A License Holder must display his or her License to Carry when directed by a law enforcement officer in accordance with section 411.205 of the Texas Government Code.  Otherwise, an individual is not required to disclose whether he or she is a License Holder in order to participate in any program or service offered by the University of North Texas, except as required by law.   

III. Carrying of Concealed Handgun by Employees.  An employee who lawfully holds a License to Carry may carry a concealed handgun into his or her work area, unless prohibited under this policy, but is not authorized to use the weapon in the course and scope of performing his or her duties.  An employee whose possession, storage, or use of a handgun results in personal injury or property damage is personally liable for the injury or damage, and is not entitled to immunity under section 411.208 of the Government Code or any other immunity to which the individual may be otherwise entitled as a University employee. 

IV. Locations and Activities where Concealed Handguns are Prohibited.  A License Holder is prohibited from carrying a concealed handgun onto the campus premises where prohibited by law and where prohibited by this policy based on the nature of the student population, specific safety concerns, and uniqueness of the campus environment.   

A. Concealed handguns are prohibited: 

1. at a location where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place as prohibited under section 46.035(b)(2) of the Texas Penal Code, or where a sports club or intramural athletic competition is taking place; 

2. at a location used as a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship as prohibited under section 46.035(b)(6) of the Texas Penal Code; 

3. at a location designated as a polling place on the day of a federal, state, or local election, including while early voting is in progress as set out in section 46.03(a)(2) of the Texas Penal Code; 

4. at a location where the campus premises is used by a court unless the handgun is carried pursuant to written regulation or written authorization of the court in accordance with section 46.03(a)(3) of the Texas Penal Code; 

5. in a nonpublic, secure portion of the University of North Texas Police Department used to conduct official business as prohibited under section 411.207(b) of the Texas Government Code; 

6. in a location where substances designated as “immediately dangerous to life and health” are present, access is restricted to individuals who perform research or duties, and a sealed and filtered environment is essential, specifically the Clean Room located at Discovery Park; 

7. in a laboratory where biological hazards, as defined by this policy, are present; 

8. in an area where equipment that is incompatible with metallic objects is present, (such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) machines); 

9. where state or federal law or contract, at the sole discretion of the state or federal government or organization with whom the contract is entered,  requires exclusion of a handgun in a specific location and the exclusion does not generally prohibit or have the effect of generally prohibiting License Holders from carrying concealed handguns on the campus premises; 

10. at a location where medical, health, or clinical services are provided, specifically Chestnut Hall, Life of Purpose in Chilton Hall, the Psychology Clinic in Terrill Hall, Speech and Hearing Clinic in the Speech and Hearing Building, and the Welch Street Complex B; 

11. at a location where services to minors are provided, specifically the Child and Family Resource Center in Matthews Annex, Child Development Lab, Kristin Farmer Autism Center, and McConnell Hall;  

12. at a location where special student services are provided, specifically, Goolsby Chapel and the University Union Meditation Room;   

13. at a location where intercollegiate, club, and intramural athletic events occur on the campus premises, specifically the  Physical Education Building, Ken Bahnsen Gymnasium building, and Pohl Recreation Center; and 

14. at a location where large-scale events occur on the campus premises, specifically the ballrooms and Lyceum in the University Union, ballroom in the Gateway Center, Coliseum, Main Auditorium in the Auditorium Building, and Murchison Performing Arts Center.   

B. Concealed handguns are prohibited at the following Activities: 

1. where intercollegiate, club, and intramural athletic events occur on the campus premises, specifically Apogee Stadium, Fouts Field, fields used for intramural activities, Lovelace Softball Stadium, Sand Volleyball Courts at Mean Green Village, Soccer Stadium at Mean Green Village, Volleyball Complex at Mean Green Village, and Warranch Tennis Complex; and 

2. university and high school graduations. 

Responsible Party:  Chief of Police 
V. Obligation to Provide Notice Where Concealed Handguns are Prohibited.  The University shall provide notice at all locations and Activities where concealed handguns are prohibited under this policy and may post notice where handguns are expressly prohibited but where notice is not required to be posted by law.  The language of the notice, which is set out in section 30.06 of the Texas Penal Code, shall not be altered in any way unless revised by state law.  Any individual who without authorization, tampers with, defaces, modifies or removes a notice provided pursuant to this policy is subject to disciplinary action, including trespass from campus, suspension, termination of employment or a business relationship, and is subject to criminal prosecution. 

A. Notice required under this policy must read:   

Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun. 
B. Notice must be provided in writing and on a card or other document in both English and Spanish. When notice is posted at a location, the sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one (1) inch in height, displayed in a conspicuous manner that is clearly visible to the public, and at a sufficient distance from the location or Activity to inform a License Holder that entry on the property or presence at the Activity with a concealed handgun is prohibited.   

C. The University shall publish this policy annually in the policy manual and student handbook, and on a webpage dedicated to the carrying of concealed handguns on campus premises.   

D. Contracts for use of the campus premises shall include pertinent provisions of this policy.   

Responsible Party:  Chief of Police 
VI. Campus Housing.  A concealed handgun may be carried or stored in campus housing as set out in this policy. 

A. Residents.   

1. A License Holder who resides in campus housing may carry a concealed handgun into campus housing and may store the weapon in his or her assigned room except during periods between the spring and fall semesters when the facility hosts summer camps attended by minors.   

2. A resident who brings a concealed handgun into campus housing pursuant to this policy must carry the weapon on his or her person at all times or store it in his or her assigned room. 

3. A handgun may be stored only in a private residential room as defined in this policy, and in a locked container installed or approved by the University.   

4. A resident may not intentionally or knowingly display a handgun in plain view of another person in campus housing except as necessary to properly store the weapon in his or her assigned room. 

B. Non-Residents.   

1. A License Holder who does not reside in campus housing may carry a concealed handgun into campus housing except during periods between the spring and fall semesters when the facility hosts summer camps attended by minors.   

2. The handgun must be carried on the non-resident’s person at all times and may not be stored in a campus housing room. 

C. Responsible for Personal Injury or Damage.  A resident or non-resident whose possession, use, or storage of a handgun results in personal injury or property damage is personally liable for the injury or damage.   

Responsible Party:  Vice President for Student Affairs 
VII. Temporarily Prohibiting Concealed Handguns on Campus Premises.   

A. The President or President’s designee may prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns for up to seven (7) days in order to promote safety on the campus premises:   

1. when the Activity has a history for violence; or 

2. where a large-scale activity, due to the presence of alcohol, uniqueness of the campus environment, specific threat of violence, or other safety considerations presents a reasonable threat to health or safety. 

B. The University Chief of Police may prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on the campus premises: 

1. when it reasonably appears there is threat of injury to human life, destruction to university property, or a threat of willful disruption of orderly operation of the university as defined in section 51.231 of the Education Code, or  

2. upon receipt of credible information of imminent injury to human life or destruction to university property.   

C. Review of Decision to Temporarily Restrict Carrying of Concealed Handgun  

1. A License Holder may request review of the decision to temporarily prohibit the carrying of a concealed handgun. 

2. The request must be submitted in writing to the Reviewing Official and describe why allowing concealed handguns at the location or Activity does not present a safety concern. 

3. The Reviewing Official may request additional information and must notify the License Holder of the decision no later than two (2) days after receiving the request for review.  The notice must provide the reason(s) for the decision.   

4. The decision of the Reviewing Official is final. 

Responsible Party:  Chief of Police 
 
VIII. Sanctions for Violating this Policy.  Any individual who violates this policy is subject to disciplinary action to include trespass from campus, suspension, or termination of employment or a business relationship, and is subject to criminal prosecution. 

Responsible Party:  Cabinet Level Executives 
IX. Report to Legislature.  The University of North Texas shall prepare a report for the Texas Legislature describing the campus rules adopted to regulate the carrying of concealed handguns on campus and the reasons for the rules not later than September 1, 2016 and every even-numbered year thereafter. 

The report will be submitted to the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor for Governmental Relations prior to submission to the Legislature.   
Responsible Party:  President 
X. Amending Policy.  The President may amend this policy as necessary for campus safety, to include permanently designating new or additional locations where the carrying of concealed handguns on campus premises is prohibited.  Any prohibition must be based on specific safety considerations, the nature of the student population, and the uniqueness of the campus environment and may not generally prohibit or have the effect of generally prohibiting License Holders from carrying concealed handguns on campus premises. 

A. A request to amend this policy to permanently prohibit the carrying of a concealed handgun must be submitted, in writing, to the University policy office. 

B. The request must describe the specific factual reasons for the permanent designation, including safety concern(s), the nature of the student population, and any unique features or circumstances related to the building, part of a building, or Activity that regularly takes place in the building.  The request also should identify other locations of the campus or Activities with similar characteristics where concealed handguns are prohibited. 

C. The request and proposed amendment must be posted on the University’s webpage dedicated to the carrying of concealed handguns.  Interested individuals must be given a reasonable time and opportunity to comment on the request.  Students, faculty, and staff must be given the opportunity to comment in person before the proposed amendment is submitted to the President for approval. 

D. Any amendment to this policy that has the effect of restricting the lawful carrying of a concealed handgun by a License Holder must be submitted to the Board of Regents within 90 days of the President’s approval, and will not take effect until reviewed by the Board. 

Responsible Party:  President 
References and Cross-references.   
Tex. Gov’t Code, Chapter 411 
Tex. Penal Code, Chapter 30 
Tex. Penal Code, Chapter 46 
Tex. Educ. Code, section 51.231 
Tex. Code. Crim. Proc., article 2.12 
 
Forms and Tools. 
campuscarry.unt.edu 
 
Approved: 
Effective: 
Revised: 

 

[UNT90]

Much ado about nothing.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/20160125/deputy-man-accidentally-shoots-self-in-leg

Are you sure you want open carry or any guns by students on campus... I fear accidentally shootings from careless people more than the need to have one... 

How many time have we had an incident in a classroom (ever) that would have been helped by having a gun.

 

[UNTFan23]

57 minutes ago, SCREAMING EAGLE-66 said:

http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/20160125/deputy-man-accidentally-shoots-self-in-leg

Are you sure you want open carry or any guns by students on campus... I fear accidentally shootings from careless people more than the need to have one... 

How many time have we had an incident in a classroom (ever) that would have been helped by having a gun.

 

I think if you had a gun in your car on campus you were in trouble with the law, that's how strict it was.  If you have a CHL, you've gone through at least one safety course.

I have yet to see anyone open carry, so the scariness of this change in the law seems have been over done, and by quite a bit.

[oldguystudent]

6 hours ago, UNTFan23 said:

I have yet to see anyone open carry, so the scariness of this change in the law seems have been over done, and by quite a bit.

I honestly thought I would have seen at least one person open carry by now, but I haven't.  I have seen a shiton of those 30.07 signs though, and they aren't subtle at all.  I forgot where it was, maybe a McDonalds, but they'd posted it big enough to cover the entire door at the entrance.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

16 hours ago, UNTFan23 said:

I think if you had a gun in your car on campus you were in trouble with the law, that's how strict it was.  If you have a CHL, you've gone through at least one safety course.

I have yet to see anyone open carry, so the scariness of this change in the law seems have been over done, and by quite a bit.

--- I have not seen one being carried either and they aren't legal on Campus until Sept.   I am not the crazy "left-wing- anti-gun-pagan " person UNT90** pictures me as... I often had a gun in my car at College Inn when in grad school (not sure it was legal or not.. not university owned then)  ... but I am pretty sure every policeman's training far exceeds any CHL course ... and yet he was careless and shot himself.... also Yawl have likely seen the video lately of a policeman that accidental fired his in a classroom (no one hit fortunately)... I'm not anti-gun ... just know there are way too many people that are too careless (or drunk) to be carrying one and even highly trained people sometimes screw up.... That is why I oppose carrying them on campus... in a car locked up ... no problem.  I also had one in my pickup in HS ... my family had cattle and we needed one to shoot rattlesnakes which were often under bales of hay at times..

I consider a CHL course about the level of a drivers ed course.... It doesn't make anyone an expert, just better than nothing.  

**I quit posting because he often he changed the meaning of what I said or implied I believed things I did not believe.. sometimes with profanity and nothing seemed to be done about it. True .. I am "the left" of him but I suspect 99% of people here are. . Anytime you disagree with him he yells "Liberal".  I am guessing financially I am much more conservative than most here.. I hate any debt..  personal or national which has increased greatly since 2001 under two presidents and usually under a supposedly conservative Congress (really??) .. . it is now triple what it was in 2000 after 210 years. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[LongJim]

10 hours ago, oldguystudent said:

I honestly thought I would have seen at least one person open carry by now, but I haven't.  I have seen a shiton of those 30.07 signs though, and they aren't subtle at all.  I forgot where it was, maybe a McDonalds, but they'd posted it big enough to cover the entire door at the entrance.

Believe it or not, a lot--I'm not going to say all, but all that *I've* talked to--don't personally want to open carry.  They prefer concealed, as it's less hassle, and LEO's who are not on the clock do not want to deal with the hassle/potential issues involved with open carry.

[UNTFan23]

13 hours ago, SCREAMING EAGLE-66 said:

I consider a CHL course about the level of a drivers ed course.... It doesn't make anyone an expert, just better than nothing.  

People rarely take any refresher courses when it comes to driving, which kills more people than guns do.  Maybe more classes might make people better (and more considerate?) drivers?

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Get a traffic ticket and you may be sent to a driving school. ...  Driving seems to be a necessity (unless you live in a huge city with a lot of public transportation)  .. not sure carrying a gun everywhere is a necessity unless you live or go into  in a drug-infested or crime infested neighborhood. Many times more people drive than carry guns ...so expect more deaths... lousy argument.  Probably more people are killed crossing a street also .. so you suggest we should never cross a  street.??. 

 

[Army of Dad]

1 hour ago, SCREAMING EAGLE-66 said:

---Get a traffic ticket and you may be sent to a driving school. ...  Driving seems to be a necessity (unless you live in a huge city with a lot of public transportation)  .. not sure carrying a gun everywhere is a necessity unless you live or go into  in a drug-infested or crime infested neighborhood. Many times more people drive than carry guns ...so expect more deaths... lousy argument.  Probably more people are killed crossing a street also .. so you suggest we should never cross a  street.??. 

 

And more actual children (not 18 hang members that are often counted) die from drowning and their own doctors than from gunshots. Would you outlaw those too?

 

[Censored by Laurie]

2 hours ago, Army of Dad said:

And more actual children (not 18 hang members that are often counted) die from drowning and their own doctors than from gunshots. Would you outlaw those too?

 

to follow this logical path...the number of terrorism deaths is so minimal, I don't know why we concern ourselves with that either. 

[EagleMBA]

On 1/26/2016 at 7:13 AM, oldguystudent said:

I honestly thought I would have seen at least one person open carry by now, but I haven't.  I have seen a shiton of those 30.07 signs though, and they aren't subtle at all.  I forgot where it was, maybe a McDonalds, but they'd posted it big enough to cover the entire door at the entrance.

Not surprising. Law enforcement tells me that they are underwhelmed at the response from crybabies. You will not see me openly carry unless there is a need (ex: shoulder holster on a long drive, for comfort) because I prefer to maintain strategic advantage.

[EagleMBA]

I read the University policy that Cerebus graciously posted. What a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense! I would have to read it two or three times and make notes, then reference locations to a campus map, in order to make sense of it. And all of the overlapping jurisdictions! My dear mother would have politely smiled and said "And the farmer took another load away!".

There are some restrictions that make sense, such as on spaces containing bio-hazardous materials.

The eggheads will dither until one day the wolves decide to show up and kill a number of sheep. I pray to God that never happens at my University, or any other, but I fear it is just a matter of time.

Edited January 27, 2016 by EagleMBA

[Censored by Laurie]

2 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

Not surprising. Law enforcement tells me that they are underwhelmed at the response from crybabies. You will not see me openly carry unless there is a need (ex: shoulder holster on a long drive, for comfort) because I prefer to maintain strategic advantage.

on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your diet...10 being incredibly healthy (lean proteins, plenty of greens, good fats, non-smoker, non/minimal drinker)...1 being everyday is like the State Fair?

and

on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your exercise routine...10 being regular, coordinated work-outs with known targets and goals...1 being you struggle for breath when you "sit-up" from the couch?

[EagleMBA]

3 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your diet...10 being incredibly healthy (lean proteins, plenty of greens, good fats, non-smoker, non/minimal drinker)...1 being everyday is like the State Fair?

and

on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your exercise routine...10 being regular, coordinated work-outs with known targets and goals...1 being you struggle for breath when you "sit-up" from the couch?

Don't know where you're going with this but...OK, I'll bite. 3 and 4.

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, EagleMBA said:

Don't know where you're going with this but...OK, I'll bite. 3 and 4.

I just don't get the logic behind how obsessively some will "maintain a strategic advantage" against statistical anomalies on one hand while all but ignoring the things that will far likelier end their lives prematurely.

I don't think one can shoot a heart attack...but, full disclosure, I didn't go to med school.

[EagleMBA]

2 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I just don't get the logic behind how obsessively some will "maintain a strategic advantage" against statistical anomalies on one hand while all but ignoring the things that will far likelier end their lives prematurely.

I don't think one can shoot a heart attack...but, full disclosure, I didn't go to med school.

I appreciate your thoughts. Approaching 71, I have placed a lot more emphasis on eating correctly in recent years, and I have to ration the Shiner. Don't do enough exercise but I try. Regarding "strategic advantage", the cowards that prey on innocent people look for people with weapons and shoot them first to minimize their risk. That is the logic behind remaining concealed until you have an opening. And the attack may come out of the blue, like that damned heart attack out there with my name on it.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

3 hours ago, Army of Dad said:

And more actual children (not 18 hang members that are often counted) die from drowning and their own doctors than from gunshots. Would you outlaw those too?

 

I tell my class (college math) that some this material you may use and some of it you may never use ..... But some of you in this room are likely to fall  into a lake, pool, or river and need to know how to swim....which one of you will it be  ?? ..  .  it might be you ..... so learn to swim...... .. some of you in the class will need to use algebra/geometry regularly and some will almost never ... will it be you...you don't know.. so maybe you need to learn how to swim.....  

Odd part I was talking to one of my ex-student who performs/works on Broadway and I commented "I wasted my time teaching you algebra I suppose"... His response " Rarely does a week go by that he didn't use it building sets and other things ... he now is a producer.. I then accused him of just humoring me ... he claimed not.. that he really did use algebra and geometry a lot to get things to work right on stage..... 

Learn to swim .... but you don't have to swim every day.... nothing wrong with owning  guns or how to use one... you just don't need to carry them everywhere. 

.   

Open carry:    If a crook is robbing a store and discovers a person  with a gun in there ..... he is likely the first and maybe only person he would shoot..... the rest aren't much threat. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[EagleMBA]

It boils down to this for me...I have faith in licensed 21-year-old University of North Texas students. I do not have faith in scum that may walk onto campus and prey on unarmed students for whatever evil purpose may enter their deranged minds. People like that have respect for nothing and simply take the path of least resistance when they want something.

[Army of Dad]

1 hour ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I just don't get the logic behind how obsessively some will "maintain a strategic advantage" against statistical anomalies on one hand while all but ignoring the things that will far likelier end their lives prematurely.

I don't think one can shoot a heart attack...but, full disclosure, I didn't go to med school.

There are many little things people do every day to try and return home that night.

I may or may not carry a gun, but that is and should be my choice. I also do lots of other things, like check the amount of gas in my tank, keep jumper cables and a tire pump in my vehicles, carry a pocket knife, and many other things. I'll even take a small amount of time to prepare for very low order probability situations. I always wear lace up shoes and jeans (or long pants with natural fibers) and a cotton or other natural fiber shirt on every flight I take. In the extremely rare circumstance that I'm involved in a survive able crash I'm choosing to be prepared to give myself the best chance for survival. Taking these small steps costs me almost no time and yet I am still preparing for one of the more unlikely events. I'm not going to tell you or any one else they must take the same steps, and I'll thank you to do the same for me when it comes to carrying effective tools of self defense.

[UNTFan23]

5 hours ago, SCREAMING EAGLE-66 said:

---Get a traffic ticket and you may be sent to a driving school. ...  Driving seems to be a necessity (unless you live in a huge city with a lot of public transportation)  .. not sure carrying a gun everywhere is a necessity unless you live or go into  in a drug-infested or crime infested neighborhood. Many times more people drive than carry guns ...so expect more deaths... lousy argument.  Probably more people are killed crossing a street also .. so you suggest we should never cross a  street.??. 

 

Driving school is just one option to deal with a ticket. I haven't had a refresher course for driving a car/truck since around 1998 or so.  I'll bet there are plenty of other people who have gone longer without any type of additional "schooling" when it comes to driving.

Requiring a safety class for gun ownership, in my eyes at least, would do little to stop most accidental shootings because, to be quite honest, you can't really fix stupid.  Let Darwin thin the herd if people aren't going to make smart decisions.

[UNT90]

23 hours ago, SCREAMING EAGLE-66 said:

--- I have not seen one being carried either and they aren't legal on Campus until Sept.   I am not the crazy "left-wing- anti-gun-pagan " person UNT90** pictures me as... I often had a gun in my car at College Inn when in grad school (not sure it was legal or not.. not university owned then)  ... but I am pretty sure every policeman's training far exceeds any CHL course ... and yet he was careless and shot himself.... also Yawl have likely seen the video lately of a policeman that accidental fired his in a classroom (no one hit fortunately)... I'm not anti-gun ... just know there are way too many people that are too careless (or drunk) to be carrying one and even highly trained people sometimes screw up.... That is why I oppose carrying them on campus... in a car locked up ... no problem.  I also had one in my pickup in HS ... my family had cattle and we needed one to shoot rattlesnakes which were often under bales of hay at times..

I consider a CHL course about the level of a drivers ed course.... It doesn't make anyone an expert, just better than nothing.  

**I quit posting because he often he changed the meaning of what I said or implied I believed things I did not believe.. sometimes with profanity and nothing seemed to be done about it. True .. I am "the left" of him but I suspect 99% of people here are. . Anytime you disagree with him he yells "Liberal".  I am guessing financially I am much more conservative than most here.. I hate any debt..  personal or national which has increased greatly since 2001 under two presidents and usually under a supposedly conservative Congress (really??) .. . it is now triple what it was in 2000 after 210 years. 

Way to mischaracterize completely our political disagreements. You espouse liberal positions while claiming to be a moderate. You aren't. Be proud of who you are.

And yes, you violated the law by carrying a handgun in your vehicle when in college. You were a criminal. You should have been arrested. Because that's what you want for people who just want to abide by the law today.

You hate debt, except Obama's debt. So you really hate republican debt. Democrat debt is fine with you. 

Go find any "profanity laced post" of mine directed at you. You can't, because it doesn't exist. That's just an outright lie, Rick Villarreal (you knew I'd work it in).  

I haven't been disciplined because I haven't violated forum rules. I also have never ran crying like a baby to the mods because someone posted something I didn't agree with. As a matter of fact, the only time I've ever contacted a mod was to beg for leniency for a person who let loose a profanity laced rant at me. Apparently you consistently (by your own admission) whined to the mods about disagreeing posts in a political thread. Simply because you didn't like my views.

Quite telling. 

Please feel free to continue with your "I'll tell you I'm a moderate but will follow the democrat talking points verbatim" agenda. 

And don't forget to throw in the story of the friend who shot themselves. For the 500th time.

4 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I just don't get the logic behind how obsessively some will "maintain a strategic advantage" against statistical anomalies on one hand while all but ignoring the things that will far likelier end their lives prematurely.

I don't think one can shoot a heart attack...but, full disclosure, I didn't go to med school.

Don't forget that deadly automobile. Definitely need to ban that evil mechanical device.

23 hours ago, LongJim said:

Believe it or not, a lot--I'm not going to say all, but all that *I've* talked to--don't personally want to open carry.  They prefer concealed, as it's less hassle, and LEO's who are not on the clock do not want to deal with the hassle/potential issues involved with open carry.

A lot of law enforcement officers not on duty don't want to deal with the hassle of carrying.

Period. 

[Rudy]

6 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

Not surprising. Law enforcement tells me that they are underwhelmed at the response from crybabies. You will not see me openly carry unless there is a need (ex: shoulder holster on a long drive, for comfort) because I prefer to maintain strategic advantage.

I've only seen one person carrying openly, and even he had his shirt bloused over it, thus covering it up.

4 hours ago, SCREAMING EAGLE-66 said:

Learn to swim .... but you don't have to swim every day.... nothing wrong with owning  guns or how to use one... you just don't need to carry them everywhere. 

Many people would much rather have it and not need it than risk needing it and not having it.

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

Don't forget that deadly automobile. Definitely need to ban that evil mechanical device.

 

find where I've said "ban guns"