Confirmed Keith Frazier headed to UNT

[Harry]

19 minutes ago, Andrew said:

Carful. People around here don't use logic and are very inept when it comes to sports. Generally people like you post and end up leaving because of the trash that's posted. 

That's a broad brush Drew and I think an unfair statement to make to a new visitor.  There are a lot of folks on here that know a fair bit about hoops.  Not saying it is perfect here by any means but we try to keep it honest. 

[Andrew]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

That's a broad brush Drew and I think an unfair statement to make to a new visitor.  There are a lot of folks on here that know a fair bit about hoops.  Not saying it is perfect here by any means but we try to keep it honest. 

NT03 doesn't post anymore and Cooley rarely if ever does. Only CMJ is left and he just keeps everyone posted on the games. Lately it's the firefighting Rick and NT90 complain fest. Other than that's it's just people googling statistics. Where did NT03 go anyway!?!?

[MeanGreenEx2003]

24 minutes ago, outoftown said:

Five years? in football sure. But in Basketball? I need to see those numbers that back that up. Particularly with a coach who has not exactly a great player retention rate. And it is not exactly like Benford arrived last season and had no time to prove himself.

I am not saying I don't see improvement. There probably was some on the job learning after all. But it feels very incremental and we are still a good bit behind where we were under UNTs last BBall coach.

Out of town.

Let's not forget the past so quickly. They wanted to run Johnny Jones out of town as well. Coach Jones won in the last year of his contract, made, the tournament. And now everyone loves some Johnny Jones (which we should).

So I think Benford should have the same situation, and yes when you haven't been a head coach, it takes a little time to figure it out.

And yes Five years in Basketball as well, once again we are UNT, not Duke.....

Edited January 16, 2016 by MeanGreenEx2003

[Army of Dad]

31 minutes ago, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

Out of town.

Let's not forget the past so quickly. They wanted to run Johnny Jones out of town as well. Coach Jones won in the last year of his contract, made, the tournament. And now everyone loves some Johnny Jones (which we should).

So I think Benford should have the same situation, and yes when you haven't been a head coach, it takes a little time to figure it out.

And yes Five years in Basketball as well, once again we are UNT, not Duke.....

Since you bring up the past, what was the state of the program when JJ took over and what was it like when Benford arrived? What was the difference in records compared to the previous season in their first years?

[TheTastyGreek]

Frankly, if we have to pull a UAB to get rid of Benford, I'd be fine with it. 

If Frazier comes, great. If he sticks around to play next year under a different coach, even better. Ditto for everyone else on the roster. But anyone we lose, so be it. If they're chained to Benford, they can go overboard with him. 

And yes, the next guy probably needs 3-4 years to get us back to something respectable.

[CMJ]

Unless Benford wins out or something crazy like that, I don't see how anyone can take his side right now.

Edited January 17, 2016 by CMJ

[MeanGreenEx2003]

I'm not sure what the state of the program was before Johnny Jones because I wasn't a UNT before Johnny. I followed UNT, because coach Jones was an LSU Alumni/Coach.

But if your saying you would wait 3-4 fours years for a new coach. Right? If Benford gets Frazier, why not wait for another year, since it's going to take awhile to build the program up anyway.

And I seriously doubt Keith Frazier sits to play for another coach that he doesnt know.

So Fraizer can go overboard with Benford? Wow. We possibly have a chance to get a McDonald's all american, that could be a program changer.

 

#Patience

[THOR]

16 minutes ago, Andrew said:

What's is your problem? Benford like affect your life or something? The hate you hold for him is ridiculous.

Or the fact that he has destroyed the program from where it was...can't coach for shit...looks lost on the sidelines...generally has no idea what he is doing, except for some recruiting. 

[outoftown]

Just for the record, I don't advocate we go UAB in basketball (I assume like they did in football TTG means) for any reason.

Alas If we let him stay another year, then we almost have to extend him by a year for recruiting purposes or the contract situation will be used against him. In other words it might not really get cheaper. Unless you believe we are close to a big turnaround there is not really a reason to wait with firing beyond this season.

Edit: Army of Dads point about improving the program from how you found it is spot on. it may not be the only factor but it should count for something. As for the MacDonalds All American: Benford already had an NBA draft pick once. It was not quite the game changer we all hoped it would be.

Edited January 17, 2016 by outoftown

[Army of Dad]

58 minutes ago, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

I'm not sure what the state of the program was before Johnny Jones because I wasn't a UNT before Johnny. I followed UNT, because coach Jones was an LSU Alumni/Coach.

But if your saying you would wait 3-4 fours years for a new coach. Right? If Benford gets Frazier, why not wait for another year, since it's going to take awhile to build the program up anyway.

And I seriously doubt Keith Frazier sits to play for another coach that he doesnt know.

So Fraizer can go overboard with Benford? Wow. We possibly have a chance to get a McDonald's all american, that could be a program changer.

 

#Patience

You should google the records of the school in the years prior to JJ and Benford then...

[UNTFan23]

42 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

You should google the records of the school in the years prior to JJ and Benford then...

I'll look it up when I get back home.

[Ben Gooding]

2 hours ago, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

Out of town.

Let's not forget the past so quickly. They wanted to run Johnny Jones out of town as well. Coach Jones won in the last year of his contract, made, the tournament. And now everyone loves some Johnny Jones (which we should).

So I think Benford should have the same situation, and yes when you haven't been a head coach, it takes a little time to figure it out.

And yes Five years in Basketball as well, once again we are UNT, not Duke.....

This post is littered with BS. 5 years to "figure it out" because we aren't Duke. Pitiful logic. 

[Rudy]

11 hours ago, Green P1 said:

He'll never play a second for Tony Benford. 

Does anyone ever REALLY play for Benford?

2 hours ago, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

I'm not sure what the state of the program was before Johnny Jones because I wasn't a UNT before Johnny. I followed UNT, because coach Jones was an LSU Alumni/Coach.

But if your saying you would wait 3-4 fours years for a new coach. Right? If Benford gets Frazier, why not wait for another year, since it's going to take awhile to build the program up anyway.

And I seriously doubt Keith Frazier sits to play for another coach that he doesnt know.

So Fraizer can go overboard with Benford? Wow. We possibly have a chance to get a McDonald's all american, that could be a program changer.

 

#Patience

Johnny inherited basically te same program Benford has turned us into.  You're right though, it is going to take a while to build the program up, because Benford destroyed it.

 

#benford'd

[Green P1]

2 hours ago, Andrew said:

What's is your problem? Benford like affect your life or something? The hate you hold for him is ridiculous.

Remember how badly you wanted McCarney gone?  He only sucked balls for like a year and a half.  You've been on board with Benny sucking balls almost half a decade.  

[TheTastyGreek]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

I'm not sure what the state of the program was before Johnny Jones because I wasn't a UNT before Johnny. I followed UNT, because coach Jones was an LSU Alumni/Coach.

But if your saying you would wait 3-4 fours years for a new coach. Right? If Benford gets Frazier, why not wait for another year, since it's going to take awhile to build the program up anyway.

And I seriously doubt Keith Frazier sits to play for another coach that he doesnt know.

So Fraizer can go overboard with Benford? Wow. We possibly have a chance to get a McDonald's all american, that could be a program changer.

 

#Patience

One of the things that we generally don't do very well here is retread ground when people join the forum. Especially in circumstances where things are going poorly. 

So, I'll do my best to do as brief but thorough a response as I can. Apologies in advance if any of this comes across as personal, that's totally not the intent. 

1) Shouldn't a coach get at least 2 (or 3, or 4, or 5) years to try and build a program?

Yes! Most people wouldn't disagree with that. IF, that is, you're talking about a program that needs building. Some folks will always demand immediate results (just wait for October on the football forum). But, for the most part, I think a lot of people here are largely patient, reasonable fans. HOWEVER, this is not a situation where you needed a coach to shake things up, rebuild a broken program, turn around a bad situation. The reason a lot of folks have already said to compare JJ and Benford's respective situations is because JJ took over the program at it's lowest point (until our next coach), and Benford took it over on a high note, with excellent talent and a history of sustained recent success. We weren't rebuilding. We were growing. We needed someone who could be ready immediately and sustain or build from there. 

I don't expect us to make the tournament every year, or win 20 games every year... But I can give you some examples of other schools at our (non-BCS, non historical powerhouse) level were able to manage under a transition of similar circumstance. What we should have gotten here is something like what Utah State saw in the transitions from Eustachy to Stew Morrill to Tim Duryea. Or UTEP going from Haskins to Rabedeaux to Gillespie to Sadler to Barbee to Floyd. In both of those examples, there were down years and occasionally rough transition years (meaning, one or one and a half), but none of those coaching changes put the program in a 4 year crater. 

In short, a coach taking over for someone fired? Yes, they probably deserve 2-4 years to get a fair shake. But a coach taking over a successful program from someone hired away to a bigger job? If it's been 4 years of losing, you've already seen what you're going to get. 

2) But, if we get a 5 star talent like Keith Frazier, shouldn't we give Benford another year just to see what he can accomplish with that type of player?

Opinions can vary here. In my opinion... I already saw what Tony Benford could do with a 5 star talent already proven to be capable at the college level and a supporting roster of exceptionally talented other players. He lost 20 games and dropped one to a D-2 school. And that was with a 5 star center. 

I'd be delighted to get someone like Frazier here. But if I have to choose between Benford + anyone or moving on and getting the rebuild started, even if it means losing our entire lineup... Farewell, Benford. Feel free to let the door hit you, coach, because I don't much care if you get hurt on the way out. 

3) #Patience?

#Patience was waiting this thing out to the 4th year because we weren't willing to buy out the contract sooner. A program that was serious about basketball would have ended this thing two years ago. Frankly, the fact that a lot of people are still hanging around here hoping for a change is patience in action. Patience is all that's kept this entire sub-forum from turning into nothing but UNT90-style screeds and bomb threats against the Super Pit. 

4) But why not wait one more year if we already think the next guy needs potentially 3 or 4 years to rebuild anyway?

Because one more year won't do anything but move us further away from when we were good, and move us no closer to getting good again. If Combs, Brice, Frazier, or whoever decide to stick around and play for the new guy... Then maybe he can do something special in a year or two. But if Benford could do anything with 5 star talent, or a team of his own players in his own system... He would have figured out how by now. Benford is only moving further and further away from the advantages he was gifted, and every year he stays is just another round of digging, deepening the hole for our next coach. 

Also, and you weren't here for this... But "maybe he can turn it around next year" is what we've been hearing for the last 3 years, both on this forum from an ever shrinking group, and from our athletic director whenever he gets pinned down on when he's finally going to make the change. 

[Andrew]

15 minutes ago, Green P1 said:

Remember how badly you wanted McCarney gone?  He only sucked balls for like a year and a half.  You've been on board with Benny sucking balls almost half a decade.  

1-11 was pretty bad. I wanted Mcnulty gone first haha. I was torn with Mcarny because when he left I lost some nice benefits. Until maybe just maybe we can get with Litrell. I don't think Benford will be back next season and I'm ok with that to be honest. I would also be ok if he stays for the last year of his contract and then parts ways. It might help retain some good players.

[Army of Dad]

2 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

One of the things that we generally don't do very well here is retread ground when people join the forum. Especially in circumstances where things are going poorly. 

So, I'll do my best to do as brief but thorough a response as I can. Apologies in advance if any of this comes across as personal, that's totally not the intent. 

1) Shouldn't a coach get at least 2 (or 3, or 4, or 5) years to try and build a program?

Yes! Most people wouldn't disagree with that. IF, that is, you're talking about a program that needs building. Some folks will always demand immediate results (just wait for October on the football forum). But, for the most part, I think a lot of people here are largely patient, reasonable fans. HOWEVER, this is not a situation where you needed a coach to shake things up, rebuild a broken program, turn around a bad situation. The reason a lot of folks have already said to compare JJ and Benford's respective situations is because JJ took over the program at it's lowest point (until our next coach), and Benford took it over on a high note, with excellent talent and a history of sustained recent success. We weren't rebuilding. We were growing. We needed someone who could be ready immediately and sustain or build from there. 

I don't expect us to make the tournament every year, or win 20 games every year... But I can give you some examples of other schools at our (non-BCS, non historical powerhouse) level were able to manage under a transition of similar circumstance. What we should have gotten here is something like what Utah State saw in the transitions from Eustachy to Stew Morrill to Tim Duryea. Or UTEP going from Haskins to Rabedeaux to Gillespie to Sadler to Barbee to Floyd. In both of those examples, there were down years and occasionally rough transition years (meaning, one or one and a half), but none of those coaching changes put the program in a 4 year crater. 

In short, a coach taking over for someone fired? Yes, they probably deserve 2-4 years to get a fair shake. But a coach taking over a successful program from someone hired away to a bigger job? If it's been 4 years of losing, you've already seen what you're going to get. 

2) But, if we get a 5 star talent like Keith Frazier, shouldn't we give Benford another year just to see what he can accomplish with that type of player?

Opinions can vary here. In my opinion... I already saw what Tony Benford could do with a 5 star talent already proven to be capable at the college level and a supporting roster of exceptionally talented other players. He lost 20 games and dropped one to a D-2 school. And that was with a 5 star center. 

I'd be delighted to get someone like Frazier here. But if I have to choose between Benford + anyone or moving on and getting the rebuild started, even if it means losing our entire lineup... Farewell, Benford. Feel free to let the door hit you, coach, because I don't much care if you get hurt on the way out. 

3) #Patience?

#Patience was waiting this thing out to the 4th year because we weren't willing to buy out the contract sooner. A program that was serious about basketball would have ended this thing two years ago. Frankly, the fact that a lot of people are still hanging around here hoping for a change is patience in action. Patience is all that's kept this entire sub-forum from turning into nothing but UNT90-style screeds and bomb threats against the Super Pit. 

4) But why not wait one more year if we already think the next guy needs potentially 3 or 4 years to rebuild anyway?

Because one more year won't do anything but move us further away from when we were good, and move us no closer to getting good again. If Combs, Brice, Frazier, or whoever decide to stick around and play for the new guy... Then maybe he can do something special in a year or two. But if Benford could do anything with 5 star talent, or a team of his own players in his own system... He would have figured out how by now. Benford is only moving further and further away from the advantages he was gifted, and every year he stays is just another round of digging, deepening the hole for our next coach. 

Also, and you weren't here for this... But "maybe he can turn it around next year" is what we've been hearing for the last 3 years, both on this forum from an ever shrinking group, and from our athletic director whenever he gets pinned down on when he's finally going to make the change. 

Yeah, one could take my advice to understand the difference between what we had then and what we have now, or we could just listen to Tasty.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Army of Dad

[UNTFan23]

6 hours ago, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

I'm not sure what the state of the program was before Johnny Jones because I wasn't a UNT before Johnny. I followed UNT, because coach Jones was an LSU Alumni/Coach.

But if your saying you would wait 3-4 fours years for a new coach. Right? If Benford gets Frazier, why not wait for another year, since it's going to take awhile to build the program up anyway.

And I seriously doubt Keith Frazier sits to play for another coach that he doesnt know.

So Fraizer can go overboard with Benford? Wow. We possibly have a chance to get a McDonald's all american, that could be a program changer.

 

#Patience

The coach before Johnny Jones was Vic Trilli (1997-2001 - 4 seasons). He finished with an overall record of 20-87 (.187%) and was fired after a 4-24 season in 2000-2001. While Tony Benford isn't that bad, he does have an overall losing record (49-63), at this point it might take a basketball miracle to see him make it another year.  If letting him goes we don't land a couple recruits/transfers, so be it. I see no way for this ship to get righted under the current staff.

[untjim1995]

So, here's how I see things past and future, regarding UNT Hoops, since 2001. JJ obviously took over the worst situation a coach could inherit, from a morale standpoint. The previous coach, Vic Trilli, was basically Todd Dodge at UNT, before Todd Dodge got to UNT. Just a terrible game coach and locker room leader. Johnny Jones takes over, immediately brings a new mindset to the locker room and to the entire program. As time goes on, his game management gets better, leading to several winning seasons, solid runs in the postseason tournament for the SBC, and two NCAA berths. Unfortunately, the NCAA Committee only rewarded us with 15 seeds both times, which history shows is almost a sure loss. But JJ got us going and it led to some awesome transfers of very talented HS kids who couldn't make the leap to a Power conference team, which eventually led to us getting Tony Mitchell, the most talented player we have ever been able to get here. We were set to make the next step up when LSU came back to get their long lost son and bring him to Baton Rouge for a load of cash. As mentioned, lots of talent on the roster, many choices available to interview and hire, and RV goes with the Marquette assistant coach with no head coaching experience and who was known solely as a recruiter, Tony Benford, who was also a Texas Tech alum. If somehow, miraculous to think about at this point, but if that first Benford team had done what it was supposed to do, which was win the SBC and get a postseason berth, Texas Tech would have hired him immediately--that alone makes the hire a poor one, knowing full well that his alma mater, flush with cash, would pull him away, causing even more instability in the program. But, if the unthinkable (at the time) occurred, and the assistant with no head coaching experience showed he was obviously not up for the job, you are stuck with him until you deemed him affordable to let go of, which is usually the 4th year of a 5 year deal. He showed us all, almost immediately, that by losing to Division 2 Alabama-Huntsville in the Preseason NIT, this job was too much for Benford. That has been continuously proven since then, yet each season ending has brought us the sad news from RV that Benford just needs more time, just like he said about Todd Dodge. As we enter his make-or-break season, Benford is rewarding us in a very similar vein as Dodge and Trilli did, by losing in an even bigger fashion.

But here's the amazing silver lining for our program. Almost inconceivably, we keep getting talent here--probably because Benford can still recruit great, despite every possible reason that he shouldn't be able to get anyone to come here, freshman or transfer. That leads me to believe that the next coach has the chance to actually improve this thing fast. Now, does improvement mean winning the CUSA Title and going to the Tournament? Almost certainly no. But it does give us the chance to get someone in here that could rebuild this thing quickly to at least a level that is similar to where we were toward the very end of JJ's run, where competing for a conference championship in a weak league was possible. But you need a good coach, preferably one who has skins on the wall somewhere--IOW, not another Tony Benford-type coach. And there's the ultimate rub--we have the absolute worst AD in the country to do the picking and leading of this, a guy who might be able to pick out awesome Domino's managers, but can't pick out winning coaches in revenue sports. Literally, the man is kryptonite for this kind of coach. And he isn't going anywhere, so he gets yet another hire to make, that surely will get a 5-year deal, and then we have to deal with the reality that if he sucks as a coach, we are stuck--again--with a coach we have to watch just throw gas onto the fire. Its just a tough reality we face, mostly because we make it our own reality to not face it...

[UNT90]

On January 16, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Andrew said:

NT03 doesn't post anymore and Cooley rarely if ever does. Only CMJ is left and he just keeps everyone posted on the games. Lately it's the firefighting Rick and NT90 complain fest. Other than that's it's just people googling statistics. Where did NT03 go anyway!?!?

You are much more the reason 03 doesn't post here anymore, my friend. The lack of basketball knowledge on this board that accompanied a terrible coach is stunning. You might check the other "negative" board for his presence.

Anyone who thinks letting Benford serve out his contract just doesn't understand how college recruiting works. That would be 2 more years of recruiting sacrificed to save $375k. It would be an extremely stupid move, and one that I don't think even a sports stupid university like UNT would make. 

You either extend Benford or fire him after this season. Extending him may lead to a full scale revolt among the few that still care about UNT basketball, but I seriously don't put it past this AD and this university. 

[GangGreen]

No other coaches in the country know how to recruit good players?

[GMG24]

7 minutes ago, GangGreen said:

No other coaches in the country know how to recruit good players?

Just one he's at UTA but RV doesn't want him. 

[UNTLifer]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 10:16 PM, MeanGreenEx2003 said:

Keith Fraizer to UNT is a strong possibility.

The Connections are there: Benford and Snoop Johnson(Former Kimball Coach) are friends.

The DOBO (Sheldon) and Erven Davis (UNT Alumni) are friends. Sheldon supposedly helped with Ryan Woolridge transfer from San Deigo.

Think about this starting line for next year for conference:

1)J'Michael Reese/Ryan Woolridge

2) Deckie Johnson/J'Michael Brown

3) Keith Frazier/AJ Lawson

4) Jeremey Combs

5) Rickey Brice

Great potential with the right coach.  Let's pray that we get the right coach because Benford has ruined UNT basketball for me.

[Wag Tag]

7 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Great potential with the right coach.  Let's pray that we get the right coach because Benford has ruined UNT basketball for me.

I am amazed that he can still bring in talent! 

If we can't get Cross than who?

[Mean_Green09]

On 1/15/2016 at 3:26 PM, Harry said:

Yes - he has had his share of problems, but think about him and Combs playing together in the same lineup and it is hard not to be excited.

Excited the kid has talent, no doubt.

But,

Its hard to be excited about another transfer brought into a program with no system or direction.