Good Luck to Monica at Baylor

[Reb UT '70]

I am very sorry to see Monica go to Baylor, although I'm glad to see that she seems to be able to start right away. Baylor has been going down hill for the last three years in the soccer world, but they are still in the top half of the Big XII. That Monica can walk in and start there speaks well for our program.

The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that she is able to play this year and our replacement goalie who was a student at UNT last year can not. I don't know how Baylor has been able to pull this off, but if there is anything that is not above board I'd like to at least see their hand slapped. If it is somehow okay then I hope we can learn how they did it so we can get Buchanan on the field. I've heard that she might be better than Monica.

Link to Baylor Soccer story on Monica

[LoveMG]

Someone previously posted that transfer rules for soccer and some other sports are different than for football where they have to sit a year. My question is, what caused her to want to leave? She seemed like a star and had records at UNT, what made her transfer?

[Reb UT '70]

She was certainly a star and was going to be the sole captain on the team two days before 'two-a-days' started. I thought it was because her play with the Mexican National Team made it impossible to play here.

I'm glad she is going to continue in school, even if to be frank I would rather see her at any school other than Baylor. I just don't like Baylor or the coach there. If her transfer did have to do the the Mexican team, the little comment at the end of the Baylor coach's write-up about Baylor being proud to have a player on the Mexican National team is a poke in the eye by someone to someone.

[UNTLifer]

Why did she transfer???

[Reb UT '70]

See the above reply that's my long winded way of saying I don't have a clue, but I don't like it. I guess times are changing, I talked to may son who is 28 and he thought it was just fine to change schools and to play for another team if it worked out better at that moment for you. I think that's another reason I don't like pro sports, it destroys the whole concept of loyalty to a team, and loyalty to a player for that matter.

I do wish Monica good luck, but wished she'd stayed at UNT.

[ascchamp]

well i really don't know what to say about this whole thing it is a surprise to mekind of! well bree can't play because she broke her national letter of intent in transfering at mid year last year! maybe there are time specific rules or maybe not?? however i haev to say that monica was very smart in doing what she did obviously she knew what was ahead and didn't just transfer to baylor 2 weeks ago she has probably been enrolled throughthe summer! so she knwos something is up ! hey, yo ugo wher eit is the best situation adn that has nothing to do with loyalty! loyalty only gets you so far ! plus at this age and level sad to say it is a business! not a friendship! she made a business decision! good luck to her!

[Cerebus]

ascchamp,

nothing personal, but your posts are almost impossible to read. I never liked stream of consciousness writing.

In other words, some punctuation would be nice. But thanks for posting, you sure do seem to have an inside view of the soccer situation.

[Reb UT '70]

ASCChamp do you know for certain that the reason that Bree can't play is the NLI issue? I think I remember it being said that she never played for the other team, but that still doesn't make sense that staying a full year ... I would like to understand how that works.

"Doing what is best for you" is the antipathy of team play. I know of lots of reasons why a player should leave a university for another team. I don't have a problem with a player who isn't going to get playing time for example moving to a different school. That's almost always done with the coach's blessing.

However to leave a Captain's spot on a Championship team for a team that is not as good, and Baylor is not as good a team IMNHO as UNT doesn't meet that test. I don't know Monica's reasons, and if I did I might approve of them, however, loyalty is a virtue that calls for sacrifice of "what is best for me" for the greater good. One needs to be very careful where you give your loyalty, because of that sacrifice.

Loyalty to UNT football right now means that you haven't had a winning season in a while. However unless you are willing to give that loyalty you don't receive the rewards of it either. A lot of institutions have demanded loyalty in the past that didn't deserve it or earn it. Loyalty is a two way street and I think it is foolish to be loyal to an institution that is not loyal to you. Nevertheless, the idea that each individual should always and only be concerned with what is best for themselves will result in a society that is good for no one.

I want to say again that I don't know why Monica left, I don't like Baylor Soccer and that colors my opinions of her actions, but if her reason was simply "that this was better for me" then I think she was wrong and I have no respect for her decision.

[Green92]

I have a real problem being so hard on kids and they decisions they make. Why does it matter why this girl transferred? A person’s right to choose is the building block of this country. It’s ridiculous to speculate or condemn this girl for choosing another school over UNT. Baylor is a fine school. So what if their soccer program is not good in someone’s opinion? Reb, I usually enjoy your posts, but this one is questionable.

[LoveMG]

It matters in that we need to know if the decision was based on boredom, coaching, what the competing school offered, or what UNT lacked, etc. Athletes don't just leave a starting position and school-records on a whim. It does matter why!

[Reb UT '70]

A classic case of poor writing. I can see how anyone would assume that I was down on Monica, I put words in her mouth and then disapproved. Since I don't know Monica's reasons for leaving, I should have left her name out of the post. What upsets me is the concept that ASCChamp posits as a possible motive for her move, that

you go where it is the best situation and that has nothing to do with loyalty! loyalty only gets you so far ! plus at this age and level, sad to say it is a business! not a friendship! she made a business decision! good luck to her!

I should have quoted that line because I very much disagree with it. I have real problems with what I consider a self centered view of life. I thought I made it clear that I was only using her as a example but it was poorly written. I'm afraid this post caught me looking concepts and not the individual. Freedom is one of the things that has made this country great, but so has personal and cooperate responsibility. Perhaps I should say communal responsibility rather than cooperate since that word is generally associated with business establishments.

I can think of literally thousands of valid reasons for a player to leave a college team. Getting a better 'deal' is not one of them. One reason I have stopped watching pro sports is that it is a business and players have no loyalty to teams or teams to players or to cities. It is self centeredness at its worst. I do not want to see that at the college level. I think college athletics is about loyalty, it is one of the big reasons we have it. It helps keep alumni loyal to their school... and the list goes on. My previous post could be read to say that I thought Monica was being dis-loyal, that was poor writing. My position is that college athletes owe something to their school, and that the schools owe something to them.

Let me put it this way, I know nothing about Scott Hall, but I'm certain that he could find a spot now on a team that has a higher profile than does UNT. He has done well and the team is being structured around his talents. If he were to announce that he had decided to go play for Mega U. because it would give him a better shot at the pros I would condemn him for his decision.

The point I was trying to make was that the exercise of personal choice without regard for the consequence of that choice on others is ultimately damaging to the person making the choice, because it damages the fabric of society. I keep trying to come up with a different way to say that because it sounds like hyperbole, but I believe it. I believe that there are responsibilities that go with privileges. I think citizenship requires service, so I did my time in the military, and in politics.

Let me once again make clear I'm not throwing stone at Monica, because I don't know her reasons. What I am saying is that any college athlete who grabs for a 'gold ring' at the expense of his team is disloyal, and is doing the University, the sport and ultimately themselves and society a disservice.

[Green92]

Reb, very nice explanation of your feelings. I understand now what you are getting at. Yes, student/athletes do owe something back to their university. What that is, I don’t know, but I see how hard it is to describe. I think I took offence because I transferred during undergrad from Baylor to UNT. Baylor is a fine school, my brother has two degrees and my wife graduated from there in August, but it wasn’t for me. I transferred to UNT after my sophomore year and fell in love with the diversity and laid back feeling at UNT. I guess I realize that I made a mistake to go to Baylor at 18 and I don’t want to hold others to a higher standard than I hold myself.

As far as loyalty to the university… We have a retired city manager that volunteers where I work. He told me several months ago that he felt obligated to support vocally and financially his alma mater because that school gave him a lifestyle that he could not have had otherwise. That statement really shook me. I graduated from UNT in 92 and will finish my masters this May. After I graduated and up until a few months ago, I never participated in anything “UNT” other than going to grad classes the last two years. I griped about parking and book prices and everything else. When that retired city manager spoke those words, it completely changed my viewpoint. I’m going to try to make up for those years of ignoring UNT and support the university with all my might.

I don’t know why I chose to go on and on, but I guess I just needed to get it off my chest. Reb, thanks for your support of our university and your updates of the soccer program. My daughter, age 7, plays soccer. I’m not sure she will make it through college on a soccer scholarship but she sure enjoys it.

[ascchamp]

I personally feel that monica made a good choice! i don't blame her at all!

After Monica informed the coaches of what she was going to do she also tried to seek and audience with the team so she could let them knwo what she was doing and why! The coaching staff at that timne told her not to show up that she is no longer part of the team and they didn't want her around! the coaching staff also told the players that should they come into contact with monica not to speak with her and to avoid her at all costs! not to divulge any information concerning the team to her!

so a month later guess what she is able to still play college ball and if she had wanted to go back to UNT now show won't! and taht is probably why she went to Baylor! i mean come on, would you have wanted to go back and play for a team that treated you in that manner and you were never given a chance to speak to the team! she was taking responsibility for what she was doing! she was being mature about it and acting like a captain should! but the coaching staff is the one that si tooblame for her not returning ! not her leaving, but not returning! they burned a bridge and now it might come back to haunt them!

Now! Reb, you say UNT has better program then Baylor?? i am not so sure about that! first Baylor is ranked regionally when UNT is not !denver is and they are in same conference where is UNT???? plus Baylor is in na much stronger conference and plays a tougher schedule! Texas, Tech, A&M, Nebraska, Missouri, SMU, OKlahoma, Kansas, Iowa are either ranked regionaly or nationaly! 10 out of theeir 19 games scheduled opponents are with people nationally ranked or regionally! UNT doesn't have that kind of schedule, playing TWU twice, Nicholls State, SFA?? need i say more!! and at thsi point in the season the combined records for the teams that UNT plays is 22-33-7, baylor combined records of its opponents is 38-27-6! every body has their cream puff games but at strength of schedule just with conference games baylor is looking better on paper maybe not field , but paper! you have to wait till end of season to see what happens! i think now that she is at Baylor it will be harder for her, however is she shines at baylor, it could be big time what she can do!

oh a little extra something! out of 9 teams in UNT conference, only 3 teams

combine to play four nationally ranked teams all year long?? 3 teams and only four games out of 180 possible season games within the conference! what is wrong here?????? not enough exposure---denver, unt, and fiu play ranked teams!

so it wasn't a bad decision hey, if she had to go somewhere and stay in texas where would it be?? Baylor isn't a powerhouse but there aren't slouches only way to see how UNT and baylor are different is to play them! and will it happen? not likely cause if UNT plays Baylor and lose to them it would be humiliating, adding insult to injury and you would only prove Monicas decision making correct! i would just forget about her, what's done is done move on and look towards the future! coaching needs to make sure after this year to have more keepers that actually play and have experience should anything else ever happen we all learned from and lets keep this lesson close to heart so next time it won't happen!

[GreenMachine]

Please learn how to spell. It is annoying reading your posts.

[ascchamp]

do you ever have anything nice to say ! if it bothers you , don't read the damn post!

[Reb UT '70]

i mean come on, would you have wanted to go back and play for a team that treated you in that manner and you were never given a chance to speak to the team! she was taking responsibility for what she was doing! she was being mature about it and acting like a captain should! but the coaching staff is the one that si tooblame for her not returning ! not her leaving, but not returning! they burned a bridge and now it might come back to haunt them!

I want to start by saying that I feel free to criticize this coaching staff about everything they do or don't do with one very notable exception. I say that so that no one thinks that my support for this staff is anything other than genuine or that I feel any need to support them. There are many decisions they have made that I disagree with, but I also have the brains to understand that I'm a fan and they are professionals. I see the play on game day and they see it every day, and have to look at the whole season which I don't. Even if I didn't I would have to recognize that Hedlund is brilliant coach and has amassed a record of wins that is exceeded only by A&M in Texas.

What you are presenting in your post is what appears to be one side of a story, which may not even be correct from that side. I don't have all the facts, however if I had to evaluate the judgment of proven adult coach and that of junior in college who is in the process of making a choice that I think is profoundly wrong, (playing for the Mexican team). I can tell you that I would support the adult. I would support that even if I thought the junior had a valid reason for doing what she is doing which I don't.

I was raised at a time when patriotism was more in fashion, but the choice of any young person to put their citizenship at risk for sport is repugnant to me in a time when we are asking young men and women her age to die for us. Like our Department of State I do not recognize 'dual citizenship' you are either one or the other, and since I don't believe that Monica is applying for foreign student status I just have to look upon her as disloyal. I say this as someone who has 'dual citizenship' as Panama considers me to be a citizen of that country and eligible to vote.

Now if I'm being unfair, and Moncia is indeed a patriotic Mexican then I have to apologize, and I mean that sincerely as I would not want someone to question my patriotism or loyalty, and I wish her success as she lives in her native country and raises her family there.

I'm going through all this to say that even if the situation is as you describe I would support the coaches in their decision not to let someone who has proven both their disloyalty to their team and their country to address the team and try to justify it. By her action she is showing that she is not mature, and any self serving statement she might have wanted to make might certainly have had an adverse effect upon the team.

I have stated my opinion that if any starer moved to different school for "a better chance" as part of your post implies then I think she is venial, but if the reason that Monica transferred to Baylor is that she was not going to be allowed to play here then I think that's a valid reason to move and I note that Hedlund must have released her, which I don't think I would have done since I so strongly disapprove of her stated reason for leaving the North Texas team, (to use a legal fiction to play for foreign country against her own.) Which just shows that Hedlund is a better man than I.

Now for the rest of your post, there can be no doubt that Baylor had a fine program, after all they were Big XII champions 1998 and then lost their coach and have been going downhill ever since 1999 - 3rd , 2000 - 4th , 2001 - 7th. I would also note that those players from UNT who wanted to go pro have gotten pro contracts, I think that is a good as it gets, and says all that needs to be said about the quality of the UNT program. As to who is the better team this year we will be able to look at that this over the next seven days as we will play the two schools that Baylor played last week. I know that we have a couple of key injuries going into the next three games, but I still think we should be favored. As for strength of schedule, that is a coaching decision and I?m not in a position to question it. I do wish our schedule was stronger, but that?s a fan talking.

As for next year, I have heard that we will play Baylor, I know that I will be supporting UNT. This is a sports board and certainly those who support other schools are more than welcome, I think they are sought. Thus it is only a matter of curiosity as to whom you, ascchamp, support.

[ascchamp]

I am not a UNT fan as you are, but i am a fan of those that play for UNT soccer! i happen to be friends with many of the girls and i support the girls in their play, but not the team! I could care less what Baylor does as long as monica plays well! i coudl care less if UNT ever wins another game as long as those that i am friends with play well and do not get injured! many times people become fans of franchises and not those who play or represent them! look at all the big name schools, people are fans of the school, not the players because years later when the players are gone they still remain loyal to the team name and not those who go on??? can anyone tell me without looking up information where the most recent UNT grad in soccer is playing? what team, any accomplishments they have achieved, maybe some can but not many!

so i am a fan of the girls who work hard every day busting their butts of in hot afternoon sun, for the school to get a good name! bceause some of the best athletes are the quiet athletes that don't mak ebig plays and don't make there names well known but go out day in and day out and are consistent!

take for instance UT's football team! their third string quarter back last couple of years (has really weird last name and i can't remember it right now!) never saw the field as a QB but was on special teams and led special teams in tackles! when they won, they never said hey we won because this game he made 4 great open field tackles they will say we won cause ricky williams did this, or chris simms did that! so i am not a fan of the teams them selves but those for play for it and there is a difference!

i am friends with Randy Waldrum and he is currently head coach of notre dame i am a fan of his because he is a down to earth man and a very good coach! i was a fan of his when he was at Baylor! i will be a fan of his where ever he may go! so ?? i am a fan of no one except in basketball!!! I am a Duke Bluedevil fan and will be till i die! thatis why i only like to watch college sports, people play witha purpose and with passion not as in pros, cause if so,. they wouldn't seek those outrageous salaries that many do!

[ascchamp]

hey reb also, Alyssa Carrier told me that the coaching staff told them to do so in not speaking to her! that is stright from the horses mouth! however monica has never in my presence or in me speaking to her bad mouthed UNT ! so why drag this girls name through the dirt! we all know how sports communities works! i can start a rumor and say something about UNT and if i tell the right people it willget back to them things travel and you know that! so why do it and call her name or criticize her! don't knock her down for trying to not so much justify her self, but to inform! would you have wanted to people know your side of a story?? we know the coaches?? ?? but will they tell you everything taht maybe monica did?? no !!no system will! that is athletics and business! that is what i feel!

i am not sying the coaches are wrong or monica is right, but you automatically take ones side and do so with emotion cause she left the team and hey who knows why she really did it??? not the coaches only monica and certainly not us??!

[Reb UT '70]

i coudl care less if UNT ever wins another game as long as those that i am friends with play well and do not get injured! many times people become fans of franchises and not those who play or represent them! look at all the big name schools, people are fans of the school, not the players because years later when the players are gone they still remain loyal to the team name and not those who go on??? can anyone tell me without looking up information where the most recent UNT grad in soccer is playing?

That is an interesting way to look at sports, I doubt you will find any of the girls who don't care if their team loses as long as they "play well and do not get injured" at least I hope there aren't any. The ones I know, and I know most of them, would say just the opposite, that if they had to choose between their playing well and the team winning they'd choose the team winning. To me that is one of the most valuable lessons that team sports can teach both fans and players.

I do know what the 'most recent grads in soccer' are doing, and I didn't have to look it up. I was very sorry that I didn't get a chance to talk to more of the Alumni at that game, but I was most impressed with those I did get to visit with. By the Way, that is another example of what a great program UNT has that ex-players including professional players would return for a game like that.

so i am a fan of the girls who work hard every day busting their butts of in hot afternoon sun, for the school to get a good name! bceause some of the best athletes are the quiet athletes that don't mak ebig plays and don't make there names well known but go out day in and day out and are consistent!

This is one statement that we can agree 100% about. I also am a fan of the girls and especially those who work so very hard and get so little playing time. I think that is especiallly true of people like Bree who has been here for years, worked very hard and was 100% a team player. I'm so glad that she got some starts this year.

[denndann]

[1] GreenMachine - take a chill pill - that was tacky

[2] ascchamp - please get your facts straight before spouting off ... your good points lose some punch with so many factual errors - I though I was reading a post by Scott Murray there for a minute (sorry ascchamp!)

[Reb UT '70]

Please understand that I'm not "down" on Monica, I think that Monica has made a bad choice, to play with Mexico, and it is one that bothers me on many levels. I both like and admire Monica personally, but part of maturity is knowing that you can disagree on issues and still be friends or fans. I've been a congressional district chairman for a political party in Texas, my attorney and friend was the county chairman of the other party. We've had many hours of interesting discussions and it is my hope to convert him to the party of light and hope soon, as my conversion remains his forlorn hope.

I do wish Monica good luck, but I consider what she has done to be wrong. I've made enough mistakes in my life that I'm more than willing to be understanding of others mistakes. However there is a world of difference in being understanding and being unwilling to call a mistake a mistake.

I don't know what Alyssa said or what the coaches said, but in a free country no one can stop anyone else from speaking to anyone. What you can do is make it very clear that you are not speaking as/to a team. One of the things that I like and admire about Monica is her ability to inspire others, she was a key factor in getting the team 'up' several times last season. Knowing that I can certainly understand not wanting her to talk to the team in any forum. Even assuming that Monica had the best of intentions I can understand the coaches position. I'm making the assumption that you are a student aged person and that makes the action of the coaches harder to explain. Let me put it this way, I have fired people and would in the future who have gripped about my company on company time. I know there were others who gripped about the company and me 'off the clock' and I think that is both healthy and necessary, but you have certain obligations to act a certain way when you're getting paid. That's because negativity is contagious and can destroy a team or a company. Any manager who doesn't want or get honest opinions from his employees is in trouble, but there is a big difference in the two.

I am not kicking Monica while she is down, butt here is and should be a cost for making a bad decision, to try to lessen that cost is make it more likely that others will make the same bad choice. Part of the cost is the disapproval of others and we do no one a favor to try to shield them from that. I'm sure that Monica has seen friendships strained and probably doesn't want that, but her example makes it easier for others to understand the cost of doing things the wrong way. It is entirely possible, for example, that the coaches decided that allowing Monica to return to the team would be too disruptive and thus didn't allow the team to 'vote' on her return.

It sounds like Monica is your friend, and loyalty to a friend is a great virtue, but loyalty shouldn't be blind. If a friend is about to, or has made a mistake it isn't being a friend to pretend that it wasn't a mistake. A true friend is there to help you when you've made a mistake not to justify it or ignore it. We like to make "not being judgmental" a virtue, but generally it is uncaring and a lack of real compassion. That's why we say things like "friends don't let friends drive drunk!"

Enough of this! Do you know how Pina's knee is doing, and how do you think the girls will do in Houston?

[ascchamp]

i hear her knee isn't all the good and it is a week to week basis so far >>

who knows now a day with the way medicine is??

and another thing DENNDANN what was it in what i said that was not factual?? tell me and i might be able to prove you wrong but you have not given me anything to say i was false in what i said~????

[Reb UT '70]

I know that I've been astounded at what those trainers can do. Ascchamp, what do you think the girls will do in Houston?

[SNAKE3]

I do not follow soccer as religiously as most on this posting site. The main concern that I have is that athletes at this school leave and go to another school for what ever reason. This has been a problem or issue the past couple of years. Deginald Erskin's transfer to Texas in basketball, Jason Miller transfered to Oklahoma State. Now this soccer player - a team captain - to Baylor. I wish all of these and other athletes success and good luck in what ever changes they make.

However, I can't stomach the idea that a player comes to North Texas and uses this institution as a Junior College to get their grades or better their athletic ability to move on to some BIG NAME SCHOOL, or BIG TIME CONFERENCE. These schools did not have a slot open or that athlete was not - at the time - worthy of a scholarship. If an athlete - and all do - wishes to play for a BIG TIME program, but cannot get in than go the JUCO route and attempt again.

I realize that there are many reasons as Reb stated earlier to leave or transfer from a school. I can understand the above mentioned basketball players leaving. The program was not winning, and there were some other concerns. But for a team to lose a CAPTIAN from a winning program is really hard to understand.

Again, I wish these athletes the best of luck. However, I just wish that The University of North Texas could hold these players.