7 Of The 10 Eleven-Man 2015 Texas State Champions...

MeanGreenZen · December 23, 2015

We already experimented with implementing the offense that worked best in TX high schools (Dodge). That failed, so now let's stick with running an offense that is PROVEN to work in college (Littrell).

Edited December 23, 2015 by MeanGreenZen

UNT Five&Dime · December 23, 2015

10 of the 10 outscored their opponents.

10 of the 10 gave up less points than their opponents.

Think that had anything to do with it?

BillySee58 · December 23, 2015

Yeah,..those same programs thought that about Kyler Murray and Kyle Allen too.
That reminds me..how many "Elite" athletes did Portland Stste have?

Can't tell if you're being serious or not. But it looks like you honestly believe Kyle Allen is this clear example of P5 coaches misevaluating a QB prospect. He has who won a bowl against a P5 school, beat the defending national runner up on the road as a true freshman, and has thrown 33 touchdowns against 14 interceptions as a true freshman and sophomore combined.

You're just all over the place though. I never said every P5 recruit ends up a great player. But if a player is getting P5 offers for his athleticism (like a back or wildcat-type QB), then he is elite on the high school level. How a player like that's college career ends up does not change that fact. You have transformed that point so much, and so ridiculously.

It will be interesting to see if Littrell recruits any better than DMac. I know you will say a tree stump could recruit better, but it still wil be interesting to see how Littrell's first real class (2017) stacks up against Mac's first real class (2012, which was pretty awful, as I recall).
I don't buy that Littrell will out-recruit Mac simply by stepping on (or off, for that matter) campus. I think the perceived culture of UNT is going to be a huge hurdle for Littrell with kids with multiple offers.
Popcorn ready.

He's clearly the better recruiting head coach. You can wait and see, but it's not even close.

That being said, Littrell hasn't done anything thus far, or shown signs of doing things that coaches shouldn't be able to do here. Or even shown that he can pull off more in recruiting than a guy like Brad Smiley, who we could've gotten for half of Smiley's projected salary. Mccarney really was that bad. There was a big gap between Mccarney's recruiting and getting players good enough to win CUSA championships. The question with Littrell is will he fall in that gap or be better.

Edited December 23, 2015 by BillySee58

Eagle-96 · December 23, 2015

Can't tell if you're being serious or not. But it looks like you honestly believe Kyle Allen is this clear example of P5 coaches misevaluating a QB prospect. He has who won a bowl against a P5 school, beat the defending national runner up on the road as a true freshman, and has thrown 33 touchdowns against 14 interceptions as a true freshman and sophomore combined.
You're just all over the place though. I never said every P5 recruit ends up a great player. But if a player is getting P5 offers for his athleticism (like a back or wildcat-type QB), then he is elite on the high school level. How a player like that's college career ends up does not change that fact. You have transformed that point so much, and so ridiculously.
He's clearly the better recruiting head coach. You can wait and see, but it's not even close.
That being said, Littrell hasn't done anything thus far, or shown signs of doing things that coaches shouldn't be able to do here. Or even shown that he can pull off more in recruiting than a guy like Brad Smiley, who we could've gotten for half of Smiley's projected salary. Mccarney really was that bad.

Mac simply had NO incentive. He wasn't coaching for his next gig. He wasn't worried about his financial future. He was already a god in Iowa. If I don't recruit well then eff it. Still got a whip-ass bank account and pension and I never have to buy my own drinks in Ames. Littrell has incentive that Mac never did.

Mean_Green09 · December 23, 2015

Just because your high school offense was a triple option or power run base and you were successful in it doesnt mean a kid wants to play in that kind of offense at the next level.

What stood out the most this past weekend was defense and not the style of offense. The teams that played with spread offenses were overwhelmed at times with the play of opposing DLs and speed in the back end. The elite athletes on defense won this year.

There were also a lot injuries to key offensive weapons too.

FirefightnRick · December 23, 2015

It will be interesting indeed. Kids just don't hold UNT in high regard right now and haven't for some time. One way into their minds is through their coaches. Texas high school coaches have big egos and they need to be stroked. Littrell is out there pressing the flesh with the guys that can influence decisions. I realize that kids are going to choose colleges based on their own criteria(playing time, TV time, winning, education quality). One of the factors is the opinion of the high school coach and some coaches have considerable sway over where these kids end up. For some of these kids their high school coach is one of the main male influences in their life and they value their opinion. I've seen statements that Mac simply stopped contact with high schools. Just stopped coming around. Stopped calling. High school coaches remember that. Recruiting to UNT needs ALL the help it can get and I like the fact that Littrell is out there letting coaches know who he is and what UNT is about. Will this help our classes? Time will tell.

Agree.

Rick

GMG24 · December 23, 2015

Agree.

Rick

couldn't double quote, but I agree 1,000% one place we can look at is Houston. Herman does it right. He's constantly on Twitter blowing everything about Htown up. The kids love it and him. Sure he probably has a GA make all the stuff he send out up, but great. We can do the same stuff. We need to really take advantage of all the "Free" recruiting we can do and Twitter is one of the quickest easiest ways. Snapchat also. Too many social media outlets to let $ be an issue. Sure I realize we aren't going to be able to mail 30 letters a week like some big boy schools, however mailing one or two really nice pieces would be HUGE.

JUST PLEASE KEEP RV OR THE AD AWAY THEY WILL PROBABLY SPELL THE KIDS NAME WRONG!!

I saw a kid tweet a picture of TCU's Mail they sent him ( a recruit) a fake NCAA 17 game and his picture was on the cover in a TCU uniform. Creative and the kid loved it so did Twitter. I can't find the tweet wish I could because it was very slick. Anywho rant over, I just hope Littrell does what needs to be done to change kids minds and their coaches, and the communities. Two excellent classes and this ball will begin rolling.

FirefightnRick · December 23, 2015

Can't tell if you're being serious or not. But it looks like you honestly believe Kyle Allen is this clear example of P5 coaches misevaluating a QB prospect. He has who won a bowl against a P5 school, beat the defending national runner up on the road as a true freshman, and has thrown 33 touchdowns against 14 interceptions as a true freshman and sophomore combined.
You're just all over the place though. I never said every P5 recruit ends up a great player. But if a player is getting P5 offers for his athleticism (like a back or wildcat-type QB), then he is elite on the high school level. How a player like that's college career ends up does not change that fact. You have transformed that point so much, and so ridiculously.
He's clearly the better recruiting head coach. You can wait and see, but it's not even close.
That being said, Littrell hasn't done anything thus far, or shown signs of doing things that coaches shouldn't be able to do here. Or even shown that he can pull off more in recruiting than a guy like Brad Smiley, who we could've gotten for half of Smiley's projected salary. Mccarney really was that bad. There was a big gap between Mccarney's recruiting and getting players good enough to win CUSA championships. The question with Littrell is will he fall in that gap or be better.

Your the one that made the leap from successful High School offenses in the state championships last week to Westlake didn't win because they only had one Elite player.

Rick

Just because your high school offense was a triple option or power run base and you were successful in it doesnt mean a kid wants to play in that kind of offense at the next level.
What stood out the most this past weekend was defense and not the style of offense. The teams that played with spread offenses were overwhelmed at times with the play of opposing DLs and speed in the back end. The elite athletes on defense won this year.
There were also a lot injuries to key offensive weapons too.

And it doesn't mean they want to play in a spread offense, either.

Good point about the spread getting shut down. That was fun to watch. But to me it looked like the defenses chose to cover the WR's in a 1 Pressing hard at the LOS as much as the DL play. Other than the kid from Canadian the other QB's had no where to throw the ball,

Rick

Edited December 23, 2015 by FirefightnRick

BillySee58 · December 23, 2015

Your the one that made the leap from successful High School offenses in the state championships last week to Westlake didn't win because they only had one Elite player.

No I didn't. You said Westlake had several "'ELITE ATHLETES' and couldn't beat the run teams with them." You made it sound like they lost despite having elite athletes because they tried to throw the ball instead of power run it. They just lost. With Westlake's roster it made sense to run the offense they did, because they didn't have a player like Darius Anderson to hand the ball to 35 times.

HarringtonFishSmeller · December 23, 2015

....threw the ball 16 times or fewer, 8 of them threw it 20 times or fewer, and of those 8 teams all but one utilized a dominant,..option and/or triple option ground game to win their championship. Most of these teams always had lead blocking inside and out. Outside blocking seemed to use at least a pulling lineman if not two. Katy was the exception. They run a version of the veer out of the "I" formation and straight up pound it down your throat. And three other losing teams were run oriented as well.
So considering the thinking around here is that "Today's high school recruits only want to play for college teams that run the "fun"..spread and throw it all over the place offenses"...as opposed to the triple option and multiple option from the pistol,...I wonder where all these state champions are going to play in college? I mean..they all can't play for the academies and Ga.Tech, New Mexico and Georgia Southern? AMIRIGHT?

Rick

You are right. But, we failed once trying to throw the ball 40-50 times a game...so, we're going to do it again. As posted before, I think people here are dreaming the same dream they did in 2007: offensive coordinators around FBS college will somehow be surprised by our version of the spread.

Again, it's athletes that make the best of spread offenses succeed. You have to get the best to out-athlete your opponents' defense. We are not getting the best spread quarterbacks in the state. Nor are we getting the best receivers. Or, even the second, third, or fourth best.

So, while I'm excited that we got something new coaching-wise for Christmas, if it fails quickly, it will be something else to put at the back of my closet with the rest of the toys.

By the way, what kids like is winning, whether by way of running, throwing, or both. If we don't win, we stay on the mouse wheel of fighting the SMUs and Texas States of the world for whatever two-star, one-star, and no star players available after the bigger schools sweep the best away.

FirefightnRick · December 23, 2015

No I didn't. You said Westlake had several "'ELITE ATHLETES' and couldn't beat the run teams with them." You made it sound like they lost despite having elite athletes because they tried to throw the ball instead of power run it. They just lost. With Westlake's roster it made sense to run the offense they did, because they didn't have a player like Darius Anderson to hand the ball to 35 times.

Oh so now since they didn't have an ELITE running back to go along with their ELITE QB is why Wedtlake lost? Interesting.

BTW.....Anderson Decommitted from Missouri last night.

Rick

UNTLifer · December 23, 2015

This thread is an ass whipping.

FirefightnRick · December 23, 2015

This thread is an ass whipping.

You NOT being forced to read something then whining like a 6 year old about reading it anyways......is an ass whipping.

Rick

BillySee58 · December 23, 2015

Oh so now since they didn't have an ELITE running back to go along with their ELITE QB is why Wedtlake lost? Interesting.

BTW.....Anderson Decommitted from Missouri last night.

Rick

Also not what I said. Just said they don't have an elite athlete to hand the ball to (like Anderson, as my example) but they have an elite passing QB (not running QB) so running the offense they did was in their best interest. Regardless of whether they won a state championship or not.

Edited December 23, 2015 by BillySee58

untjim1995 · December 23, 2015

It will be interesting indeed. Kids just don't hold UNT in high regard right now and haven't for some time. One way into their minds is through their coaches. Texas high school coaches have big egos and they need to be stroked. Littrell is out there pressing the flesh with the guys that can influence decisions. I realize that kids are going to choose colleges based on their own criteria(playing time, TV time, winning, education quality). One of the factors is the opinion of the high school coach and some coaches have considerable sway over where these kids end up. For some of these kids their high school coach is one of the main male influences in their life and they value their opinion. I've seen statements that Mac simply stopped contact with high schools. Just stopped coming around. Stopped calling. High school coaches remember that. Recruiting to UNT needs ALL the help it can get and I like the fact that Littrell is out there letting coaches know who he is and what UNT is about. Will this help our classes? Time will tell.

I completely agree on your views on high school coaches having big egos and playing a very important role in their players' lives. So my question is this: how long does it take to change our school's perception with these coaches and the players and their families? In the last 11 years, these people have seen our school post 1 winning season, which covers 4 head coaches, not including Chico. In those eleven years, they have seen us post exactly one other year where we won as many as 5 games in one season. The other nine seasons in that 11-year stretch include two 4-win teams, two 3-win teams, three 2-win teams, and two 1-win teams. These people we are recruiting aren't steering players here because they don't believe in our commitment to becoming a winner--their egos want their kids to go somewhere else that isn't a perpetual loser. The younger coaches have seen us suck something fierce for the last 11 years, no matter the coach, the conference, or the stadium. When they look back at since we moved up to FBS in 1995, they have witnessed 4 winning seasons and 17 losing seasons, of which only 3 of them finished with as good as 5 wins in a season. And then there is the 1-aa debacle that older Texas HS coaches remember all to well, while the SWC was king of the state, from 1983-1994.

Its my belief that Littrell has major work ahead of him on the recruiting trail. He does offer playing time at a FBS university in a Metro area and a youthful energy, but he has never dealt with going into high schools and dealing with coaches that think his program is not where they want their kids to go or families that have no interest in North Texas. If he can overcome those realities by finding diamonds in the rough and under-recruited kids and develop them into bigger and better football players, that will be very impressive. I've been told that HS coaches liked McCarney and his staff, but they knew without a doubt that their kids didn't want anything to do with playing his plodding offense and that winning at UNT is looked at as very challenging. This is what they told their kids under an experienced college coach who had skins on the wall from previous stops to regale the coaches with. How will they react to a guy who looks the part of a Texas Football Coach and runs a offense that is much more like what they run today, but is extremely green in experience? My guess is that they will eventually warm up to him and his staff, but its gonna take awhile. I think his best bet is to hit the JUCOs hard for infusion of talent at QB and on defense until he can get more HS recruits to look our way. This is what happens when your program reaches the low point of its modern history--you have no talent on the roster and you have to go recruit to get those kids here when nobody has much interest in the program. But he has the advantage of three other Texas schools in very similar situations (Texas State, UTEP, and UTSA) dealing with a lot of the same problems. To me, Littrell's top priority in 2016 needs to be in recruiting wins over those three schools. If he does that, he can get us ahead of all three of them in a fairly significant way really soon, like by the 2017 season. Once that occurs, then he can take aim at kids that are going to Rice and SMU and the other AAC and CUSA schools in the region. Its why I think 2018 will be very telling around here. He will have his players here, a much easier schedule, and have more experience as a head coach. If 2018 goes well, he's probably coaching somewhere else in 2019. If it is an average year (4-6 wins), he's probably got one more year to get things right in 2019. And if 2018 is a disaster (3 wins or less), the UNT 17 will probably buy him out like they just did McCarney.

Eagle-96 · December 23, 2015

I completely agree on your views on high school coaches having big egos and playing a very important role in their players' lives. So my question is this: how long does it take to change our school's perception with these coaches and the players and their families? In the last 11 years, these people have seen our school post 1 winning season, which covers 4 head coaches, not including Chico. In those eleven years, they have seen us post exactly one other year where we won as many as 5 games in one season. The other nine seasons in that 11-year stretch include two 4-win teams, two 3-win teams, three 2-win teams, and two 1-win teams. These people we are recruiting aren't steering players here because they don't believe in our commitment to becoming a winner--their egos want their kids to go somewhere else that isn't a perpetual loser. The younger coaches have seen us suck something fierce for the last 11 years, no matter the coach, the conference, or the stadium. When they look back at since we moved up to FBS in 1995, they have witnessed 4 winning seasons and 17 losing seasons, of which only 3 of them finished with as good as 5 wins in a season. And then there is the 1-aa debacle that older Texas HS coaches remember all to well, while the SWC was king of the state, from 1983-1994.
Its my belief that Littrell has major work ahead of him on the recruiting trail. He does offer playing time at a FBS university in a Metro area and a youthful energy, but he has never dealt with going into high schools and dealing with coaches that think his program is not where they want their kids to go or families that have no interest in North Texas. If he can overcome those realities by finding diamonds in the rough and under-recruited kids and develop them into bigger and better football players, that will be very impressive. I've been told that HS coaches liked McCarney and his staff, but they knew without a doubt that their kids didn't want anything to do with playing his plodding offense and that winning at UNT is looked at as very challenging. This is what they told their kids under an experienced college coach who had skins on the wall from previous stops to regale the coaches with. How will they react to a guy who looks the part of a Texas Football Coach and runs a offense that is much more like what they run today, but is extremely green in experience? My guess is that they will eventually warm up to him and his staff, but its gonna take awhile. I think his best bet is to hit the JUCOs hard for infusion of talent at QB and on defense until he can get more HS recruits to look our way. This is what happens when your program reaches the low point of its modern history--you have no talent on the roster and you have to go recruit to get those kids here when nobody has much interest in the program. But he has the advantage of three other Texas schools in very similar situations (Texas State, UTEP, and UTSA) dealing with a lot of the same problems. To me, Littrell's top priority in 2016 needs to be in recruiting wins over those three schools. If he does that, he can get us ahead of all three of them in a fairly significant way really soon, like by the 2017 season. Once that occurs, then he can take aim at kids that are going to Rice and SMU and the other AAC and CUSA schools in the region. Its why I think 2018 will be very telling around here. He will have his players here, a much easier schedule, and have more experience as a head coach. If 2018 goes well, he's probably coaching somewhere else in 2019. If it is an average year (4-6 wins), he's probably got one more year to get things right in 2019. And if 2018 is a disaster (3 wins or less), the UNT 17 will probably buy him out like they just did McCarney.

No question Littrell et al have a lot of work to do, but the fact is that he is doing the little, simple things that Mac didn't. Spending an hour at a high school shootin' shit with a high school coach can go a LONG way in improving our image. It shows them that we have enough respect to actually visit them and show them we are serious. Inviting staffs to practice to see how we do things make them feel important. High school coaches want to be wooed and Littrell is doing that.

UNTLifer · December 23, 2015

You NOT being forced to read something then whining like a 6 year old about reading it anyways......is an ass whipping.

Rick
If you would quit twisting everything Billy posts around to meet your agenda, it wouldn't be, but thanks for reminding me I don't have to read it Dad.

FirefightnRick · December 23, 2015

Also not what I said. Just said they don't have an elite athlete to hand the ball to (like Anderson, as my example) but they have an elite passing QB (not running QB) so running the offense they did was in their best interest. Regardless of whether they won a state championship or not.

1278 yards rushing..(99 in the state championship game)....20 rushing TD's on the season.

Imagine how many TD's and yards rushing he'd had if he were an "Elite" running QB?

Rick

I haven't twisted a thing. I simply made an observation about offenses in the state championships,..then suddenly that observation was dismissed over how many scholarship offers the players running those offenses have received.

Rick

Eagle-96 · December 23, 2015

BillySee58 · December 23, 2015

1278 yards rushing..(99 in the state championship game)....20 rushing TD's on the season.
Imagine how many TD's and yards rushing he'd had if he were an "Elite" running QB?

Rick
I haven't twisted a thing. I simply made an observation about offenses in the state championships,..then suddenly that observation was dismissed over how many scholarship offers the players running those offenses have received.

Rick

He's a good runner, but 5.7 yards/carry and 80 rushing yards a game doesn't mean he's elite athletically. He wouldn't have multiple P5 offers as a receiver or running back prospect.

Your observation on state championship offenses wasn't dismissed. You said Westlake had several elite athletes but still lost to a running team. I said no they didn't because elite athletes who get the college exposure that Westlake gives would have P5 offers. They don't. So lining up in the wishbone or power I doesn't make sense to increase their chance to win a state championship.

No, you've definitely been twisting what I say. If my sworn enemy UNTLifer is saying you're twisting my statements then it's obvious.

Ben Gooding · December 23, 2015

Can't tell if you're being serious or not. But it looks like you honestly believe Kyle Allen is this clear example of P5 coaches misevaluating a QB prospect. He has who won a bowl against a P5 school, beat the defending national runner up on the road as a true freshman, and has thrown 33 touchdowns against 14 interceptions as a true freshman and sophomore combined.
You're just all over the place though. I never said every P5 recruit ends up a great player. But if a player is getting P5 offers for his athleticism (like a back or wildcat-type QB), then he is elite on the high school level. How a player like that's college career ends up does not change that fact. You have transformed that point so much, and so ridiculously.
He's clearly the better recruiting head coach. You can wait and see, but it's not even close.
That being said, Littrell hasn't done anything thus far, or shown signs of doing things that coaches shouldn't be able to do here. Or even shown that he can pull off more in recruiting than a guy like Brad Smiley, who we could've gotten for half of Smiley's projected salary. Mccarney really was that bad. There was a big gap between Mccarney's recruiting and getting players good enough to win CUSA championships. The question with Littrell is will he fall in that gap or be better.

So he's on par of throwing 16.5 touchdowns to 7 interceptions a year. That is not exactly going to get it done in the SEC. Sure, we would love to have that with how pitiful offenses have been here at North Texas, but playing vs the big boys that is not that large of an accomplishment. There needs to be more productivity from the QB position in a Sumlin offense and that is where the ATM struggles lie. There and defense, though there was an improvement in their overall defensive play with Chavis being the DC.

unt_rocket09 · December 23, 2015

Yeah...and in this case, a lot of losing non-State Champion teams do because all but two or three of the 10 state champions DON'T.

Rick
If asked I'd bet they'd believe they would get more hot chicks as winners than stat-building losers.

Rick

The wing t, slot t, flex bone etc are just formations. Spread teams still run the same plays it just looks different. Everyone wants to be able to run the football. It's nothing new. Please don't make me school you with your fan football knowledge.

Edited December 23, 2015 by unt_rocket09

BillySee58 · December 23, 2015

So he's on par of throwing 16.5 touchdowns to 7 interceptions a year. That is not exactly going to get it done in the SEC. Sure, we would love to have that with how pitiful offenses have been here at North Texas, but playing vs the big boys that is not that large of an accomplishment. There needs to be more productivity from the QB position in a Sumlin offense and that is where the ATM struggles lie. There and defense, though there was an improvement in their overall defensive play with Chavis being the DC.

He also only started like 16 combined games, so those stats are closer to one full season than two full seasons, and as a true freshman and true sophomore. But yeah, I wasn't saying the kid is some all-conference P5 QB, although he has the talent to be after he sits out next year. FFR just made it seem like he was an example of a misevaluation by P5 coaches.

Which was also about 3 FFR tangents away from the point I was actually trying to make.

FirefightnRick · December 24, 2015

He also only started like 16 combined games, so those stats are closer to one full season than two full seasons, and as a true freshman and true sophomore. But yeah, I wasn't saying the kid is some all-conference P5 QB, although he has the talent to be after he sits out next year. FFR just made it seem like he was an example of a misevaluation by P5 coaches.
Which was also about 3 FFR tangents away from the point I was actually trying to make.

No,...my point with that is I could care less about their ratings in high school. They are there for folks like you to enjoy and are not bullet proof in how they will turn out to be in college.. Murray was all world according to everyone but the coach who signed him. Now he's gone after proving to not have lived up to his hype.

Again, if you wanted to win a state championship this year run a power option game and chunk the shuck and duck.....(I keep trying to keep this thread on subject).

Rick

The wing t, slot t, flex bone etc are just formations. Spread teams still run the same plays it just looks different. Everyone wants to be able to run the football. It's nothing new. Please don't make me school you with your fan football knowledge.

If your going to captain obvious me like your first sentence above then spare me the effort.

Rick

Edited December 24, 2015 by FirefightnRick

BillySee58 · December 24, 2015

No,...my point with that is I could care less about their ratings in high school. They are there for folks like you to enjoy and are not bullet proof in how they will turn out to be in college.. Murray was all world according to everyone but the coach who signed him. Now he's gone after proving to not have lived up to his hype.

Murray is gone because he wanted out.

I never mentioned ratings once. Just offers. How a player turns out in college does not mean that they weren't elite athletically on the high school level. Signees don't pan out well at P5 college for many reasons, including off the field issues. But if they're getting P5 offers then they are elite high school athletes regardless of how their college career turns out. And that's what I've said the whole time. Elite high school athletes, not elite college players.