Star Wars (WARNING SPOILER ALERT)

Quoner · December 22, 2015

I am not saying the SW flicks don't have issues, they always do (except for ESB which I almost consider a perfect movie). I love them warts and all. To me though, people largely underrate the prequels and overrate the originals. The originals were more "fun", but I think the prequels were more interesting from a narrative perspective.

Agree, and since we're sharing perspectives, I've never made it through the Phantom Menace all the way. I have watched it with booze 4 times and never stayed awake for the whole thing, but have definitely seen enough and picked up what I needed. I thought the second movie wasn't bad and somehow ended up watching it 3 times in the theater with different groups of friends. You're also write on the concepts being cool, which is why, with a less serious tone, better dialogue and some tweaks, 2 and 3 could have been great. There are snippets of greatness, but you have to dig through so much crap to ferret them out that I get why the majority of people just gave up. It's frustrating to see what could have been with those - but you also had to watch them knowing exactly where they led. Even if parts of TFA felt recycled, it's not like we have to get somewhere by the 9th movie, so I'm going to cling to that freedom as long as I can - just like with the, siiigh, Matrix trilogy.

CMJ · December 22, 2015

I think my favorite thing in TPM is John Williams telling the audience at the end that Palpatine has actually won. Most people did not, and still haven't picked up that the music during the final celebration scene is his theme in major key, sped up, and sung by kids instead of a male chorus.

Actually I think Williams was at the top of his game for the prequels. It's a shame he was not nominated for any of them. Of course he has like 50 some odd Oscar nods, so I am not gonna lose sleep over it.

UNT Five&Dime · December 22, 2015

It took me a while to get into it, but at the end I feel like I enjoyed it. I'm not sure what was holding me back more, my own reservations, the (what I thought was) obnoxious in-your-face plot recycling and homages or the way the movie was filmed - call me crazy, but I love me some still cameras and all the moving around bothers me and is a totally different style. I felt like the movie tried too hard to appeal to fans of the originals. That's expected though, as Star Wars fans are very susceptible to groupthink and feel like they are owed something. Looking forward to seeing it again with my kids, a second viewing will do me good.

The Phantom Menace wasn't that bad.

Episode IV is the true #1.

Why are there only X-Wings and Tie Fighters now?

Cerebus · December 22, 2015

Why are there only X-Wings and Tie Fighters now?

Y Wings where ancient POS they had to pull out of retirement. A wings where specialists fighters. The new T70 X Wings supposedly can take on both roles as a fighter/bombers. Still to me it would have made sense to take that bombing mission on with B Wings, which were the newest tech at the time of RoJ. However i guess they can say that B Wings would all have been based on capital class ships which got wiped out (PS: That wasn't Coruscant).

As far as the prequels...

1) They didn't have the classic (IV, V, VI) Star Wars tone. They did not "feel" like Star Wars movies. So much of the symbology, Hero's Journey, desires to belong, etc just didn't play out well in them. VII DOES have that feel.

2) Dialogue. Ok, none of this is Coriolanus, but the dialogue in the prequels was AWFUL. It was what the first True AI would think human dialogue sounds like. An uncanny valley of words instead of images.

3) Uneven. It had jarring transitions. Deep trade negotiation, next scene someone steps in poo. Terrible love scene, fart jokes. There is an art to transitions, Lucas had no idea what it was.

4) Jar Jar Binks. Holy shit, what more do I have to say? He was for kids? I guess kids loved Stepin Fetchit too.

BTW: If you want to see great dialogue, with great acting Oscar Isaac Hernandez (Poe Dameron) plays Nick Wasicsko in HBO's Show Me a Hero. That is probably the best thing I saw in 2015.

UNTcrazy727 · December 22, 2015

The fact the movie COMPLETELY negates to show how Poe got from the crashed TIE-Fighter on Jakku to suddenly showing up in an X-Wing on Takodana was very jarring and lazy. Though the sequence showing him taking out like 5 TIE-Fighters and some Storm troopers was amazing.

Harry · December 22, 2015

I agree that ESB was the gold standard of all of these movies, but even it needed a good setup episode. I think this one hit the mark for that and the ending really gets you extremely excited for what the next installment holds (at least me).

Cerebus · December 22, 2015

The fact the movie COMPLETELY negates to show how Poe got from the crashed TIE-Fighter on Jakku to suddenly showing up in an X-Wing on Takodana was very jarring and lazy. Though the sequence showing him taking out like 5 TIE-Fighters and some Storm troopers was amazing.

My understanding is that part of the story will be told in a comic book. Disney is nothing if not a genius at making money.

CMJ · December 22, 2015

My understanding is that part of the story will be told in a comic book. Disney is nothing if not a genius at making money.

It'll probably be made into an anthology movie too. I'm only sort of kidding. :-)

TheTastyGreek · December 25, 2015

I have added "Spoiler Alert" to the title of the thread.

Snoke kills Dumbledore.

CMJ · December 26, 2015

Was reading to this thread and planned on writing a well thought out response, and then I saw Attack of the Clones rated above #7 in someone's response. Yoda is ruined as a character in that movie and The Room has better dialogue. I then assumed this thread was not worth a well written response to. Other than that, TFA is the 3rd best SW film behind ESB and the original.

Well, it was obviously a decent thread until you decided to come in and reveal your pettiness.

You want a well thought out response?

I'll divide this up in pursuit of fairness.

THE GOOD:

-- The outdoor photography, particularly on Jakku, looked fantastic. Tangible, tactile. Many great epic images, and props to Abrams to
keeping the camera still often enough to give some iconic visuals in the vein of Lucas's classical style. It's nice not to have as much CG
backgrounds.

-- Daisy Ridley/Rey: She was great...perhaps one of the best characters in the entire saga. A lot of spunk, she does border on "is there anything this girl can't do?" territory, but she's a fun and sympathetic hero to follow. There has to be an explanation on why she is so advanced with Force capability for such a newbie, we have to get that or I'll be seriously annoyed. I's a nice (perhaps unintended)
connection to the prequels that she works with junk just like Anakin did though.

-- John Boyega/Finn: great comic relief and energy, and a refreshing flip of the well-known faceless stormtrooper. I wasn't sure about him
being somewhat adept with a lightsaber (Kylo Ren should have cut him down immediately), but I did like that the final battle he was clearly outmatched in left him in a pretty serious medical condition, felt more realistic as opposed to him just dusting himself off afterwards.

-- Ford/Solo: A ton of fun to see But he really engaged here and was both funny and dramatic when he needed to be. One could question if
someone who's made a living out of surviving would put himself so blatantly in harm's way (approach a villain with a lightsaber who's also
standing on a catwalk over a chasm??) but the emotion of seeing him die was real.

-- BB-8. I was bummed about the lack of R2-D2 screentime, but the new droid was really easy to like without getting too cutesy. Looked a lot
cheesier going in than it turned out to be. His "thumbs-up" with the lighter probably got the biggest laugh of the movie in my theater.

-- Chewbacca: really got much more varied work to do this time around. How can one not love Chewie?

THE BAD

-- Well, it's pretty obvious. This story was so ridiculously recycled from A New Hope, it ceased to become amusing early on. It's bad enough
they ran out of ideas and had a second Death Star in Return of the Jedi, and now we get a THIRD planet-destroying battle station? I really don't understand how anyone can be ok with this and have any kind of self-respect w/r/t critical objectivity.

-- In addition to the "Starkiller Base", so much just felt like a checklist intended to press certain nostalgia centers in people's brains. Desert planet? Check. Snow planet? Check. Forest planet? Check. Alien bar? Check. Secret plans placed in droid? Check. Captured woman
who needs to be rescued? Check. There just wasn't much new here. This is really where the touch of Lucas is missed the most.

-- Kylo Ren: this is a mixed bag because I like the genesis of the character and the family connection, as well as the design and physical
presence of the character. The biggest problem is how easily Rey beats him in their duel. Even considering that he was injured from a blaster wound from Chewbacca.

When Luke faced Vader, he had legitimate training from Yoda, even if it was brief. But he was completely in over his head with Vader, and paid a very serious price. While Ren is obviously not at Vader's level, he certainly has enough Force training to be able to freeze laser blasts in mid-air, throw people, extract information from their minds, etc. So how does a girl who never picked up a lightsaber before take him down with barely a scratch on her? Especially when Ren just killed Solo which theoretically should have given him greater resolve and intensity with the dark side powers he was playing with? The main problem isn't even logic...how is this guy a good villain if he's defeated that easily by a novice?

-- The film is a little too busy location-wise for the first film in a trilogy. In A New Hope, we got Tatooine, the Death Star, and Yavin. In
The Phantom Menace, we got Naboo, Coruscant, and Tatooine. Here we have Jakku, an extended number of scenes on the Star Destroyer, the Rebel base planet, the Coruscant like world that is destroyed, the Starkiller Base, and finally whatever planet Luke is on.

-- I felt like this was the weakest of John Williams scores for the saga. Not one memorable theme. Did enjoy references to older ones. As an aside...his one moment of absolute brilliance gives a huge indication of who Snoke might be.

-- Why the hell does Leia hug Rey (who she's never seen before) but ignore Chewie, who's been her husband's closest companion for decades? Mystifying. Even if you believe, like my brother, that she knew who Rey was through the Force....her first reaction should have been the third wheel in her and Han's relationship. Chewie was probably the best man for God's sake! (it could have been Luke I know) He was already shafted in ANH when he didn't get a medal...I mean WTF.

-- The base attack at the end was completely lacking in any thrills, from the aerial attack by the X-Wing crew to the on-the-ground infiltration by Han & Co. The space battle was kinda blah, and Han and gang pretty much waltz in with no problems. If not for confronting his son, that would have been the easiest sabotage sequence ever. Here, it seems like the whole place was completely understaffed and under protected.

So ultimately, this was incredibly entertaining throughout, but I enjoyed the first half more than the second. The second was way much too
close to a New Hope remake. A lot funnier than any of the prequels, and obviously better acted. However, I was disappointed it was such a redo which reflect me ranking it at #5 for the moment. It could climb in future years as I see it more, but I've only grown more annoyed by the problems I had with it as I've reflected over the past week.

Edited December 26, 2015 by CMJ

CaribbeanGreen · December 26, 2015

So, when does this devolve into everybody calling everybody a bunch of idiots? I'd kinda like to see that.

Welp, there you go! /munthe'd

Quoner · December 26, 2015

Welp, there you go! /munthe'd

Festivus. Star Wars. All good is destroyed.

What's next? Steak? Blow jobs? Tacos?

CMJ · December 26, 2015

Sorry. If you're gonna type out that you enjoy Attack of the Clones, then you simply just have bad taste in movies. There is little redeeming about that film. Tbh, it's not even a matter of taste. On every level...from a pure cinematographic standpoint down to something as simple as the script, character development, basic pacing, even enjoyment...it's easily one of the worst movies ever. The CGI is unforgivably bad. Phantom Menace & The Clone Wars are also incredibly racist. It's like Star Wars directed by Tommy Wiseau or the dude who does all the Adam Sandler movies. Luckily Sith made the convoluted trilogy somewhat coherent, but Clones is just a flat out horrific film.

Yeah, alright insult my taste with no real comeback - awesome. I'll wait until you write out some sort of in depth analysis, but until then you are an emperor with no clothes.

But here are my top ten films of all time if we wanna compare taste. Or name a year...I've been doing top ten year lists since 1996 (and years before that I have gone back to try and at least decide on a favorite film...not quite the same doing top tens years afterward though)

1. Schindler's List (Steven Spielberg, 1993)
2. It's a Wonderful Life (Frank Capra, 1946)
3. Amadeus (Milos Forman, 1984)
4. Citizen Kane (Orson Welles, 1941)
5. The Right Stuff (Phillip Kaufman, 1983)
6. The Empire Strikes Back (Irvin Kershner, 1980)
7. Jaws (Steven Spielberg, 1975)
8. Vertigo (Alfred Hitchcock, 1958)
9. The Shawshank Redemption (Frank Darabont, 1994)
10. Lawrence of Arabia (David Lean, 1962)

Would you like an in depth analysis on any of these? I could provide one. In other words...debate me on film but don't act like some holier than thou person in regard to taste, because I will not put up with that crap. I probably love film and write about it more than you.

Edited December 27, 2015 by CMJ

oldguystudent · December 27, 2015

1. Schindler's List (Steven Spielberg, 1993)
2. It's a Wonderful Life (Frank Capra, 1946)
3. Amadeus (Milos Forman, 1984)
4. Citizen Kane (Orson Welles, 1941)
5. The Right Stuff (Phillip Kaufman, 1983)
6. The Empire Strikes Back (Irvin Kershner, 1980)
7. Jaws (Steven Spielberg, 1975)
8. Vertigo (Alfred Hitchcock, 1958)
9. The Shawshank Redemption (Frank Darabont, 1994)
10. Lawrence of Arabia (David Lean, 1962)

Interesting that there's nothing more recent than 1994. I admit I struggle to add to that list with anything since 1994, but for 40s movies, I'd add The Best Years of our Lives.

TheTastyGreek · December 27, 2015

Yeah, alright insult my taste with no real comeback - awesome.

You said "Mystery Men" was camp.

I've never really forgiven you.

CMJ · December 27, 2015

Interesting that there's nothing more recent than 1994. I admit I struggle to add to that list with anything since 1994, but for 40s movies, I'd add The Best Years of our Lives.

I should note that my rule is to not add movies more recent than five years to the list because I need to see how they age in my mind. I do go back and reconsider films with some regularity, so perhaps I may knock off one of these for something else soon. I probably have over 100 films that I could make a case to include, but these have been my ten for a few years now.

Army of Dad · December 27, 2015

I should note that my rule is to not add movies more recent than five years to the list because I need to see how they age in my mind. I do go back and reconsider films with some regularity, so perhaps I may knock off one of these for something else soon. I probably have over 100 films that I could make a case to include, but these have been my ten for a few years now.

Love that part, kind of like Hall of Fame eligibility.

CMJ · December 28, 2015

Come on, you've gotta realize at this point I just post on here to troll.
Those are all great movies. Which makes it all the more baffling you like AOTC unless you're just being contrarian to be contrarian.

Ummm no...it's a quality flick that I feel has been unjustly criticized for years. If you want to debate merits then fine, just be respectful. If you come in firebombing, I'll give it back and then some.

KingDL1 · December 28, 2015

Why did they go back to Druidia? And crash land on Vega again? A robot with secret plans/map for the resistance lost in a desert? TOO Much!

I saw it today at Look on their Evolution screen in 2D, good but another damn death star? How about a doomsday machine? I would have rather had a fleet battle. Or an new weapon for a large class battle cruiser. Or the alignment of three super cruisers to lunch a control beam. Just something new.

Rey is Luke's daughter?

2D was awesome did not see anything 3D could do but distract. I did enjoy my recliner and large armrests.

I would say the first 3 are much better especially if you could upgrade the CG and modern techniques in filming with sound.

I liked the new lightsaber. The new R2D2 ball version. I don't understand the squealing beeping and not a real language.

Why does the federation/sith, the empire/emperor, and the 1st Order/Snook (Ha!) have the same ships, tie fighters, shuttles, plans and storm troopers? Can we get some new bad guys after while? Blowing up planets seems like no profit, less beings to control or tax.

Can the Jedi get their training together?

Rudy · December 30, 2015

I enjoyed it. I think it sucked ass they killed Han. I too did see some parallels from the books which they said would be an "alternate universe". Expect to find out that Rey and Ren are twins.

And CMJ, where would you put Heat?

TheTastyGreek · December 30, 2015

51 minutes ago, Rudy said:

And CMJ, where would you put Heat?

Couldn't stand it. Subsequently left the kitchen.

CaribbeanGreen · December 30, 2015

6 minutes ago, TheTastyGreek said:

Couldn't stand it. Subsequently left the kitchen.

You son of a bitch. You think that's the kind of material The Spleen would approve of?

CMJ · December 30, 2015

2 hours ago, Rudy said:

And CMJ, where would you put Heat?

Like on an all time list? It's a great flick, maybe in my top 100 somewhere but probably not. I mean think about how many thousands of movies you see over the course of your life. I wouldn't even wager a guess how many i've seen.

It's tough to crack lists.

Also...Tasty...that was awesome..I laughed for a good minute.

Edited December 30, 2015 by CMJ

Cerebus · December 31, 2015

On 12/26/2015 at 5:39 PM, CMJ said:

1. Schindler's List (Steven Spielberg, 1993)
2. It's a Wonderful Life (Frank Capra, 1946)
3. Amadeus (Milos Forman, 1984)
4. Citizen Kane (Orson Welles, 1941)
5. The Right Stuff (Phillip Kaufman, 1983)
6. The Empire Strikes Back (Irvin Kershner, 1980)
7. Jaws (Steven Spielberg, 1975)
8. Vertigo (Alfred Hitchcock, 1958)
9. The Shawshank Redemption (Frank Darabont, 1994)
10. Lawrence of Arabia (David Lean, 1962)

I work with a lot of college age students. These aren't film majors, usually they are engineering or CSCI students. The sad thing is that I think the above highlighted movies are unknown to them. I mean even if they have never seen Lawrence of Arabia or Vertigo they have heard of them.

Amadeus is one of my top movies also, I mean it's incredibly inaccurate, but it works as a movie.

PS: WHAT?! Nothing from Werner Herzog? What kind of plebian claptrap list is this?!*

*That is fake, sarcastic anger people, please don't start writing campfire songs about how the star wars thread should just get along and learn to love one another.