Developing: One dead after shots fired on Fry Street

[Cr1028]

What we spending dollars on things like tasers if they aren't going to be used in situations like this?

Do the facts show that non lethal tactics were attempted?  If so, great. If not, then that is the crux of the issue. 

I think tasers were brought about to subdue someone who is resisting without resorting to the baton beatings of the past.

How far does a taser actually shoot with any accuracy? Would you be willing to stand within that range of a crazed man carrying an axe knowing you only have one shot and if you miss or the taser fails, you will be maimed or dead?

I'm not a cop but if were a CHL holder and a dude with an axe continued to come at me after I pointed my gun and told him to stop, I'd probably empty the clip at him as quickly as I could pull the trigger.

The only less-lethal method I can think of that may have stopped this dude is those bean bag rounds they shoot sometimes and I'd be surprised if UNT police even had those.

[Censored by Laurie]

He's likely made a statement by now, with the consultation of his attorney. However, the investigation is still ongoing. And I do put faith in the officer. In not going to hide that fact. I know what he goes through and the training he has. So I'm going to have faith in him. I would think the public should have faith in him that he knows how to do his job and be did it well, just like any other professional, you have faith that they did their job until you have reason to believe otherwise.

for the record...in this situation, it seems the officer(s) was justified. that said...perhaps some of this "training" should also include a lesson that your judgement isn't beyond reproach simply because you wear a badge. you accept the risks and you accept the higher standard that you'll be held to as a police officer...so when someone ends up dead you must also accept that there will be criticism. 

The only less-lethal method I can think of that may have stopped this dude is those bean bag rounds they shoot sometimes and I'd be surprised if UNT police even had those.

[Rudy]

The probes fired from a teaser will travel until they hit their target, or until they reach the end of their cord. The actual distance depends on the type of cartridge. There is no guaranteed accuracy. If you miss or if the taser us ineffective or the cartridge is bad, it takes several seconds to reload. 

 

No one said police view themselves as "beyond reproach". But no other profession receives such Monday morning quarterbacking by people who have zero clue.  

Edited December 14, 2015 by Rudy

[Censored by Laurie]

No one said police view themselves as "beyond reproach". But no other profession receives such Monday morning quarterbacking by people who have zero clue.  

could you share your thoughts on Rick Villareal?

[Rudy]

This board knows more about his job than law enforcement, fire fighting, medical services, and the military. 

[Censored by Laurie]

This board knows more about his job than law enforcement, fire fighting, medical services, and the military. 

oh? based on what?

[LongJim]

I'm curious as to what folks on the board would do if they were in the vicinity of someone who was wielding an axe, acting strangely, and advancing toward them, assuming they were armed, and could defend themselves.  If you had repeatedly told the axe-wielder to stop, and/or put down the axe, what would you do?

Option 1--Provided I thought I could escape, I would probably run away. 

Option 2--However, if I felt I could not get away, I would keep firing until the threat was eliminated.

Unfortunately, a police officer does not have Option 1 when others are potentially in harm's way.

[Rudy]

For one, based on the sheer nature of the job. But also, no one is protesting in the streets calling for dead athletic directors. The Department of Justice doesn't send investigators to every college to try and find a reason to put ADs in prison. The nature of the job is a factor. I'm not going to go to Boeing and scrutinize the mechanic building a 747. I think criticism of a college football schedule is a different beast. 

 

But you asked my opinion on Villarreal. I think he's a good guy. He has, at the very least, had a hand in improving our facilities. He has improved donations. We are in a better conference, although I think we need to start aiming for the Mountain West because CUSA I think is about to get more watered down. His track record for scheduling and for hiring coaches are not where they need to be. I think it's time to move on, but I don't support putting him in prison, or marching in the streets calling for him to die.

 

This thread's been, interesting. Mom just got out of surgery, so I'll try to keep up.

[EagleMBA]

I'm curious as to what folks on the board would do if they were in the vicinity of someone who was wielding an axe, acting strangely, and advancing toward them, assuming they were armed, and could defend themselves.  If you had repeatedly told the axe-wielder to stop, and/or put down the axe, what would you do?

Option 1--Provided I thought I could escape, I would probably run away. 

Option 2--However, if I felt I could not get away, I would keep firing until the threat was eliminated.

Unfortunately, a police officer does not have Option 1 when others are potentially in harm's way.

I would do pretty much what you said. In my case (age 70+,arthritis, both hips replaced), Option 1 is possibly not available when matched against a younger man but I would try. Option 2, I would tap 3 and reassess unless he was clearly still coming and still armed.  Just to be real about this, even in my condition from a standing start I can close 21' in less than 4 seconds (measured and timed in my hallway). I shudder to think what time someone in peak physical condition could do. One clearly does not have time to do a lot of analysis in an event like this. Situational awareness becomes more than just a catch phrase, doesn't it?

[MeanGreenTexan]

This is easily the most successful thread Skipper has ever started.

[Censored by Laurie]

For one, based on the sheer nature of the job. But also, no one is protesting in the streets calling for dead athletic directors. The Department of Justice doesn't send investigators to every college to try and find a reason to put ADs in prison. The nature of the job is a factor. I'm not going to go to Boeing and scrutinize the mechanic building a 747. I think criticism of a college football schedule is a different beast. 

 

if this is how you want to shape your argument...ok...to my knowledge no AD has ever killed anyone (maybe Tom Stanton?)

the nature and severity of the job and the nature and severity of mistakes on the job are what warrant the nature and severity of scrutiny. 

[Rudy]

You're the one who wanted to draw parallels between the profession.  And there is a HUGE difference between scrutiny and automatically judging officers' actions, marching in the streets based on incomplete or false information, and calling for the murder of cops.  

Edited December 14, 2015 by Rudy

[UNTLifer]

I support our police officers/law enforcement officers and think everyone that second guesses what they encounter and how they react should ride along with these men and women for a week or two.

I also think those on here that keep questioning why non-lethal means were not attempted should go back and read Rudy's post on page 2 explaining how these do work, but are not 100% reliable.  People that think the police just shoot to shoot don't understand the process.  That is why the officer is on paid leave.  They will investigate what occurred, including the officer's actions prior to allowing him back on patrol.

Again, this is a sad situation.  My thoughts and prayers are with the McMillian family and with the officer and his family.  And to those of you that try to make a joke out of everything, this isn't the time, place or situation.

Edited December 14, 2015 by UNTLifer

[foutsrouts]

I support our police officers/law enforcement officers and think everyone that second guesses what they encounter and how they react should ride along with these men and women for a week or two.

I also think those on here that keep questioning why non-lethal means were not attempted should go back and read Rudy's post on page 2 explaining how these do work, but are not 100% reliable.  People that think the police just shoot to shoot don't understand the process.  That is why the officer is on paid leave.  They will investigate what occurred, including the officer's actions prior to allowing him back on patrol.

Again, this is a sad situation.  My thoughts and prayers are with the McMillian family and with the officer and his family.  And to those of you that try to make a joke out of everything, this isn't the time, place or situation.

I agree. Regardless of the SFA joke potential. Sad thing.  

This board knows more about his job than law enforcement, fire fighting, medical services, and the military. 

I've never fired a taser, and am wondering how practical they are in the winter from distance when most of the time people are wearing jackets/coats at night.

[EagleMBA]

I support our police officers/law enforcement officers and think everyone that second guesses what they encounter and how they react should ride along with these men and women for a week or two.

I also think those on here that keep questioning why non-lethal means were not attempted should go back and read Rudy's post on page 2 explaining how these do work, but are not 100% reliable.  People that think the police just shoot to shoot don't understand the process.  That is why the officer is on paid leave.  They will investigate what occurred, including the officer's actions prior to allowing him back on patrol.

Again, this is a sad situation.  My thoughts and prayers are with the McMillian family and with the officer and his family.  And to those of you that try to make a joke out of everything, this isn't the time, place or situation.

I'm with your sentiments, Lifer, especially where the McMillian family is concerned. I can't even imagine how they must be devastated.

Please do not take this as a joke, but I want to attach a video link.  For anyone who thinks an axe is not a deadly weapon in the wrong hands (or in the hands of someone in the wrong state of mind) you should see this. I stumbled on this video in a Christmas sale email I got from a reputable firm I have patronized at some time called Midway U.S.A.  When the page comes up, lower left of the weapon image you will see "Videos >1"; click on that, then the arrow on the video that comes up. It will open your eyes.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/123049/cold-steel-trench-hawk-tactical-tomahawk-3-1-2-1055-carbon-steel-blade-19-overall-length-polpropylene-handle-black

NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!

Edited December 14, 2015 by EagleMBA

[Quoner]

Again, this is a sad situation.  My thoughts and prayers are with the McMillian family and with the officer and his family.  And to those of you that try to make a joke out of everything, this isn't the time, place or situation.

I don't think anyone has and completely agree, but that was a close call - you almost missed a chance to preach at the air!

[rcade]

I also think those on here that keep questioning why non-lethal means were not attempted should go back and read Rudy's post on page 2 explaining how these do work, but are not 100% reliable.

I think we might learn something from cops in other countries who use lethal force far less frequently than we do, like this British cop who talks about how they handle it when encountering someone with a knife:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/02/british-disputes-us-police-claim-new-jersey

[Rudy]

I agree. Regardless of the SFA joke potential. Sad thing.  

I've never fired a taser, and am wondering how practical they are in the winter from distance when most of the time people are wearing jackets/coats at night.

The probes often can get caught in heavy clothing, which can limit or flat out negate their effectiveness.  

British police don't have the tools that American police have. Believe it or not, we are better prepared to handle a variety of situations than they are. Comparing the policies and procedures of British and American police is like comparing the coaching styles of middle school to FBS. I guarantee you that he would shit in his pants if he had to go on patrol in Chicago, South Dallas, or even if he had to stop a vehicle with 5 occupants on a rural Texas highway at 2am by himself. Conversely, there is no way in HELL I'd do this job without the proper tools, and that includes a vest and a gun.

And before anyone, including Kram, wants to make some snide comment about me being a cop in Mayberry, I do have experience, including domestic violence calls, entering a home of a man who had just cut his wife, recovering a stolen vehicle, and having to make a split second shoot or don't shoot decision. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Rudy

[EagleGreen]

It will be interesting to see how the story unfolds.  I feel terrible for this kid's family; just terrible.  

When I was in the military, I volunteered to get tazed, shot with a rubber bullet out of a shotgun, and pepper sprayed.  I can tell you one thing for sure: not one person moved much after being shot with the rubber bullet.  If you combine a subsequent spray to the eyes, you (as a shooter and sprayer) would certainly have an idea if deadly force was necessary.  It would take on amped up, BMF to keep trucking.

As trained, deadly force should be the last resort.  I hope it was in this case.

[UNTFan23]

On the flip side, I wonder how people would feel if not enough force was used and someone ended up getting hurt because the criminal was not adequately stopped.

[UNT90]

Yes, because it's always a good idea tactically to get close to an asshole with a big ass blade.

Correct, not to mention the fact that the guy could have taken one of their vehicles and become a much larger threat to population in general.

Terrible tactics. A fortunate outcome.

How so? It's a similar scenario.

And they're able to bring him down alive with shields rather than dead with bullets. I really don't see how ya'll find the latter outcome to be preferable.

Just because they had an EXTREMELY fortunate outcome doesn't mean they were safe in what they did, for themselves, and much more importantly, for the community they protect. 

There are two witnesses stating on social media that he was attacking people and had stated several times that he had wanted to die: "first 2 shots hardly phased him. His pupils were huge, idk what he was on, when he attacked me and my friends he said 'just shoot me in the head.'" 

I wouldn't believe anything you read on social media about this, one way or the other. 

[UNT90]

This is kind of the broader point I'm trying to make. I'd much, much rather police forces invest more in equipment that pacifies or effectively de-escalates a situation rather than deadly force be the go-to.

To the bit in bold, he had lots of opportunities to harm people but only committed property damage. Everyone who interacted with him indicated that he was making suicidal statements and outbursts. He sought suicide by cop and got his wish.

My wife and I along with several friends over for a Christmas party heard the shots from our backyard last night. It's just frustrating and sad when this can actually be handled differently if there were legitimate focal shifts in our policing.

The only thing you will accomplish is getting police officers hurt and/or killed. 

Tactics are there for a reason. Don't you think that many, many, many, many police personnel and agencies have attempted to get less lethal forms of force approved to save lives? You betcha. Don't you think they have reviewed force situations and ways to respond to those situations with the balance of officer safety and fairness in their minds? You betcha. 

Do UNT officers carry tasers? Or has political correctness taken that tool from them? Not that a taser would have been effective or that the officer would have had time to deploy it in this situation, but if it was withheld for political reasons, those politics may have just cost a 21 year old his life. 

Chris, I would love for you to do some tactical simunition critical incident training. It would no doubt open your eyes to how things can become deadly in less than 1/4 of a second. All of the scenarios are pulled from real life critical incidents. 

We still don't know the facts on this. Let's wait and see what the grand jury investigation reveals.

Be patient. It will take a couple of months. 

 

Yes, he does. But why should we assume an officer is in the right if he does not give an account of what happened? You seem to be asking for the public to support a cop after a shooting no questions asked.

Police ask people questions all the time and they choose not to remain silent. The cop could make the same choice. If he did the right thing, there should be little risk for him in explaining what happened. He could give a simple statement to police that covers the basic facts of what occurred and that could be related to the public.

If McMillan was within 21 feet of the officer and charged the cop holding the axe -- a camping hatchet, by some accounts -- I think most people would reasonably conclude that the officer acted justifiably. But to assume that happened before the cop explains what occurred is not appropriate. It's jumping to a conclusion to suit an agenda, just like the people who already are convinced he did the wrong thing.

Actually, Rudy is wrong. The officer only has the right to remain silent for the criminal investigation. He will be read his Garitty warning and will have to answer questions for the administrative investigation. Failure to answer will assuredly lead to his termination. These answers cannot be used against him in a criminal trial.

You will not hear the officer's or an official version of the witnesses accounts of events until after the grand jury investigation is complete, AS REQUIRED BY TEXAS LAW.

As we all learned from the abortion that was Furgeson, witnesses will often say untrue things to the media to get attention. Same thing for social media. Don't listen to it.

Wait. For. The. Grand. Jury!

Edited December 15, 2015 by UNT90

[All About UNT]

The probes often can get caught in heavy clothing, which can limit or flat out negate their effectiveness.  

British police don't have the tools that American police have. Believe it or not, we are better prepared to handle a variety of situations than they are. Comparing the policies and procedures of British and American police is like comparing the coaching styles of middle school to FBS. I guarantee you that he would shit in his pants if he had to go on patrol in Chicago, South Dallas, or even if he had to stop a vehicle with 5 occupants on a rural Texas highway at 2am by himself. Conversely, there is no way in HELL I'd do this job without the proper tools, and that includes a vest and a gun.

And before anyone, including Kram, wants to make some snide comment about me being a cop in Mayberry, I do have experience, including domestic violence calls, entering a home of a man who had just cut his wife, recovering a stolen vehicle, and having to make a split second shoot or don't shoot decision. 

An eyewitness claiming to have been there at the last moment of the confrontation

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comments/3wsl1n/unt_police_kills_student_wielding_an_axe/

 

 

[UNT90]

What we spending dollars on things like tasers if they aren't going to be used in situations like this?

Do the facts show that non lethal tactics were attempted?  If so, great. If not, then that is the crux of the issue. 

There very well may have been no time for non-lethal tactics.

You don't know.

Wait for the facts. 

for the record...in this situation, it seems the officer(s) was justified. that said...perhaps some of this "training" should also include a lesson that your judgement isn't beyond reproach simply because you wear a badge. you accept the risks and you accept the higher standard that you'll be held to as a police officer...so when someone ends up dead you must also accept that there will be criticism. 

EVERY officer ABSOLUTELY understands this, especially in today's environment. Sometimes the hesitation because of these factors can cost them their lives:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/us/alabama-birmingham-police-detective-pistol-whipped/

This officer is lucky to still have his. 

So get off the high and mighty horse and realize that police are WELL aware of perceptions today. You need to also realize that the environment today (fostered by terrible leadership from the chief law enforcement officer in America) has encouraged physical attacks on police, thus greatly enhancing the chance of police shootings. 

Its sad, but it's the path many sheep have been led down recently. 

[rcade]

An eyewitness claiming to have been there at the last moment of the confrontation

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comments/3wsl1n/unt_police_kills_student_wielding_an_axe/

Here's that person's comment history on Reddit, which shows he had a history of talking about living in Denton that predates this incident:

https://www.reddit.com/user/BitchYouAintNoNerd

This also appears to be him, based on a username he includes in a Reddit comment:

https://www.instagram.com/raul.s92/