Another Mass Shooting

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

let's hope those sales don't lead to the death of even one American citizen, though. especially since you're more than 100 times more likely to die from gun shot than a terrorist attack.
the bolded sentence is by far my favorite. such insight. please tell me more about the cultures of the world.
and here...you can quote this so you can just cut and paste it for your future responses...it'll save you a lot of time and probably keep the north texas roads a bit safer

"I operate under the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists. I don't like/respect/trust them and would prefer they not be in my country. I place a greater emphasis on creating a false sense of security for myself by scapegoating an entire group of people than I do for any sense of morality."

Ah, there it is, folks. The leftist trump card. Calling people racists. And a default to gun control. It's really the only thing in the left playbook.

But you are right, bringing them to a country that many of them have been taught to hate means I don't have the hippie knowledge of CBL of Islamic affairs. Ok.

Same question to you: Are you willing to sacrifice the person dearest to you so 10,000 refugees can enter this country?

Censored by Laurie · December 8, 2015

Ah, there it is, folks. The leftist trump card. Calling people racists. And a default to gun control. It's really the only thing in the left playbook.
But you are right, bringing them to a country that many of them have been taught to hate means I don't have the hippie knowledge of CBL of Islamic affairs. Ok.
Same question to you: Are you willing to sacrifice the person dearest to you so 10,000 refugees can enter this country?

I've already answered your ridiculous question:
yes.

there would be immeasurable sadness. and ya...I imagine a good deal of anger, but it would be directed at that individual, not at refugees or Syrians on the whole. in fact, I could envision finding some solace in the knowledge that 9,999 individual's lives were changed for the better by mine and my loved one's decision to not let fear and hatred dictate our morality.

you're going to die. and unless you chose to live your life as a shut-in, swaddled in bubble-wrap...there's a risk that it's gonna happen before your "time"

the fact that you and your so deep, thought-provoking and OMG-so-emotional question operate under the assumption that it's a foregone conclusion that someone's loved one will die if we accept refugees simply confirms that fear and/or prejudice are the root of your stance,

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

I've already answered your ridiculous question: yes.
there would be immeasurable sadness. and ya...I imagine a good deal of anger, but it would be directed at that individual, not at refugees or Syrians on the whole. in fact, I could envision finding some solace in the knowledge that 9,999 individual's lives were changed for the better by mine and my loved one's decision to not let fear and hatred dictate our morality.
you're going to die. and unless you chose to live your life as a shut-in, swaddled in bubble-wrap...there's a risk that it's gonna happen before your "time"

the fact that you and your so deep, thought-provoking and OMG-so-emotional question operate under the assumption that it's a foregone conclusion that someone's loved one will die if we accept refugees simply confirms that fear and/or prejudice are the root of your stance,

I'm not assuming it will happen. I'm asking if it's worth the risk to you personally. And you answered.

A feel good, naive answer that is complete B.S., but an answer just the same.

I think you should run that answer by the person dearest to you and see how they feel about said answer...

Edited December 8, 2015 by UNT90

foutsrouts · December 8, 2015

Note: I am not a gun owner and it is unlikely I ever will be.

That said, I am not at all against folks being able to purchase them. Not even the really heavy duty stuff (though maybe in depth psychological background checks might be nice). I know plenty of gun owners. My grandfather, a truly sweet man, owns them. I understand most gun owners are perfectly safe.

My earlier point was that I also think these refugees are safe by and large as well. I know it is beyond cliche, but we should strive to the poem on the Statue of Liberty - which really was a mission statement of sorts for the country 120-ish years ago. I ask we live up to it with refugees from a war torn area. Those are the very definition of huddled masses.

"Give me your tired, your poor,Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I don't think the sonnet was really intended as anything close to a mission statement for the country as a whole, since its eventual inclusion on the statue was really the result of one wealthy woman's efforts to have it placed on the statue in honor of her deceased poet friend who wrote it in a fund raising effort. Now it may have evolved into something more in the minds of many, but even the statue itself was not intended to have anything to do with immigration.

As far as huddled masses are concerned, the world is full of huddled masses, and if we open our gates to all we will burst at the seams. This country has far too many problems on the horizon to be so short-sighted IMO. Especially when we're talking about potentially adding to this seemingly never ending terrorism problem. The Wild West has been settled and it's time to think about solving our own problems.

Ah, there it is, folks. The leftist trump card. Calling people racists. And a default to gun control. It's really the only thing in the left playbook.
But you are right, bringing them to a country that many of them have been taught to hate means I don't have the hippie knowledge of CBL of Islamic affairs. Ok.
Same question to you: Are you willing to sacrifice the person dearest to you so 10,000 refugees can enter this country?

It will be a lot more than 10,000 if Obama has his way.

Censored by Laurie · December 8, 2015

someone check UNT90s house for loose door-knobs

Approximately 1,000 Americans die each year from autoerotic asphyxiation. So you’re 59 times more likely to kill yourself doing weird, kinky things than at the hands of a terrorist

MeanGreenTexan · December 8, 2015

I'm not assuming it will happen. I'm asking if it's worth the risk to you personally. And you answered.
A feel good, naive answer that is complete B.S., but an answer just the same.
I think you should run that answer by the person dearest to you and see how they feel about said answer...

This is the kind of conversation-killer my wife uses on me when she's PMS'ing. You know, overly-emotional. The ones where all you can do is just throw your hands up and walk away, because you cannot logically talk to her.

I imagine as you typed this, you have anger-tears welled up in your eyes and you're likely bobbing your head around, maybe you're even wagging your finger around as well.

jennifer-lawrence-angry-gifs-wallflower-

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

someone check UNT90s house for loose door-knobs

Approximately 1,000 Americans die each year from autoerotic asphyxiation. So you’re 59 times more likely to kill yourself doing weird, kinky things than at the hands of a terrorist

Tell that to the family members of the dead in San Bernadino... Or New York... Or Kileen... Or Boston... Or Paris...

Isnt it interesting that your exact same argument could be used for death by gun violence when compared to other methods of death...

This is the kind of conversation-killer my wife uses on me when she's PMS'ing. You know, overly-emotional. The ones where all you can do is just throw your hands up and walk away, because you cannot logically talk to her.

I imagine as you typed this, you have anger-tears welled up in your eyes and you're likely bobbing your head around, maybe you're even wagging your finger around as well.

Point is he is full of shit. He only says that to show his Faux-intellectualism.

If his fiancé, wife, life partner were killed, his reaction wouldn't be "that's ok, because we have helped 9,999 other people."

You know it.

He knows it.

FirefightnRick · December 8, 2015

Killers Were Long Radicalized, F.B.I. Investigators Say

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/us/fbi-says-san-bernardino-assailants-were-radicalized.html?referer=http://www.bing.com/search?q=new+York+times..Killers+were+radicalized&a=results&MID=2500

Obviously they were two of the more than 270,000 American Muslims who support violent Jihad that PEW Research linked to earlier pointed out.

Rick

Censored by Laurie · December 8, 2015

1. Tell that to the family members of the dead in San Bernadino... Or New York... Or Kileen... Or Boston... Or Paris...
2. Isnt it interesting that your exact same argument could be used for death by gun violence when compared to other methods of death...
3. Point is he is full of shit. He only says that to show his Faux-intellectualism.
If his fiancé, wife, life partner were killed, his reaction wouldn't be "that's ok, because we have helped 9,999 other people."
You know it.
He knows it.

1. I gave you numbers. you gave me an emotion-provoking response.

2. it seems CMJ was making that exact same point in this thread. a point you readily dismissed.

3. no. faux-intellectualism is presenting an asinine question as though it were extremely thought-provoking...and then mis-interpreting and dismissing the answer because it's not what you want to hear. I never said "that's ok". I don't think anyone would ever respond to the death of a loved one with such flippancy. I told you where my anger would be directed....not at Syrians or Muslims or refugees, but at the individual responsible.

if it happened to you...where would your anger be directed?

would you blame Obama?
would you take your rage out on a local refugee population?
beat up a Syrian?
burn a Koran outside a Mosque?

MeanGreenTexan · December 8, 2015

Tell that to the family members of the dead in San Bernadino... Or New York... Or Kileen... Or Boston... Or Paris...
Isnt it interesting that your exact same argument could be used for death by gun violence when compared to other methods of death...
Point is he is full of shit. He only says that to show his Faux-intellectualism.
If his fiancé, wife, life partner were killed, his reaction wouldn't be "that's ok, because we have helped 9,999 other people."
You know it.
He knows it.

He's a grown man. I'll take his word at face value. Just like I take yours.

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

1. I gave you numbers. you gave me an emotion-provoking response.
2. it seems CMJ was making that exact same point in this thread. a point you readily dismissed.
3. no. faux-intellectualism is presenting an asinine question as though it were extremely thought-provoking...and then mis-interpreting and dismissing the answer because it's not what you want to hear. I never said "that's ok". I don't think anyone would ever respond to the death of a loved one with such flippancy. I told you where my anger would be directed....not at Syrians or Muslims or refugees, but at the individual responsible.
if it happened to you...where would your anger be directed?
would you blame Obama?
would you take your rage out on a local refugee population?
beat up a Syrian?
burn a Koran outside a Mosque?

I would demand better from my government and wonder why they turned a blind eye to a PREVENTABLE homicide.

Another implication that I'm a racist. Do you know how to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without calling them a racist/sexist/homophobe?

He's a grown man. I'll take his word at face value. Just like I take yours.

But you don't take mine. You only take his because you are of like minds on this topic.

Censored by Laurie · December 8, 2015

I would demand better from my government and wonder why they turned a blind eye to a PREVENTABLE homicide.
Another implication that I'm a racist. Do you know how to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without calling them a racist/sexist/homophobe?

I made zero implication. I honestly wondered how your anger would manifest itself and since the topic at hand was Syrian, mostly Muslim refugees they seemed apt examples.

and I'd prefer my government (and frankly, people in general) value the lives of 10,000 in need over the hypothetical death of 1.

FirefightnRick · December 8, 2015

and I'd prefer my government (and frankly, people in general) value the lives of 10,000 in need over the hypothetical death of 1.

I think your good then considering the millions of people world wide the U.S. has gone to bat for over the years...right?

Rick

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

I made zero implication. I honestly wondered how your anger would manifest itself and since the topic at hand was Syrian, mostly Muslim refugees they seemed apt examples.
and I'd prefer my government (and frankly, people in general) value the lives of 10,000 in need over the hypothetical death of 1.

So you want an American Government to be more concerned about the lives of 10,000 non-American citizens, some who may even be terrorist, than the life of an American that they are sworn to protect?

Got it.

I made zero implication. I honestly wondered how your anger would manifest itself and since the topic at hand was Syrian, mostly Muslim refugees they seemed apt examples.
and I'd prefer my government (and frankly, people in general) value the lives of 10,000 in need over the hypothetical death of 1.

So you want an American Government to be more concerned about the lives of 10,000 non-American citizens, some who may even be terrorist, than the life of an American that they are sworn to protect?

Got it.

MeanGreenTexan · December 8, 2015

I would demand better from my government and wonder why they turned a blind eye to a PREVENTABLE homicide.
Another implication that I'm a racist. Do you know how to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without calling them a racist/sexist/homophobe?

But you don't take mine. You only take his because you are of like minds on this topic.

Sure I do. Regarding this topic, you're concerned about allowing Syrian refugees (people fleeing a situation we cannot even fathom here in America) due to the possibility of the enemy being in their numbers. In the ensuing conversation, you bring up emotions and assume people are reacting emotionally when their opinion differs from yours. I'm trying to point out that your reaction (of fear) is also emotional. I suppose any reaction is one of emotion, right?

Do you agree with Donald Trump's comments from yesterday around banning Muslims and surveilling Mosques?

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

Sure I do. Regarding this topic, you're concerned about allowing Syrian refugees (people fleeing a situation we cannot even fathom here in America) due to the possibility of the enemy being in their numbers. In the ensuing conversation, you bring up emotions and assume people are reacting emotionally when their opinion differs from yours. I'm trying to point out that your reaction (of fear) is also emotional. I suppose any reaction is one of emotion, right?
Do you agree with Donald Trump's comments from yesterday around banning Muslims and surveilling Mosques?

Stop listening to the media and listen to what trump actually said.

He said he would ban Muslims from entry until the government could properly vet them.

Was he talking about all Muslims? Was he talking about the Syrian refugees?

Context.

Syrian refugees? Yes.

All Muslims? No. It should be on a case by case basis whether the person can be properly vetted.

But then you will have government workers being accused of racism if they do their job (assuming they are the rare motivated government employee) letting questionable people through to avoid the accusation. Much like the neighbors not reporting suspicious activity at the radical Islamist terrorists house because they were afraid they would be called racist.

Censored by Laurie · December 8, 2015

So you want an American Government to be more concerned about the lives of 10,000 non-American citizens, some who may even be terrorist, than the life of an American that they are sworn to protect?
Got it.

I want an American government that isn't willing to cower to a minuscule and hyperbolic risk in the face of a moral responsibility.

one that can trust it's safeguards and intelligence to protect it's citizenry, yet recognizes that evil is inherent in anybody regardless of their background and won't scapegoat an entire group in need out of fear.

ColoradoEagle · December 8, 2015

Stop listening to the media and listen to what trump actually said.
He said he would ban Muslims from entry until the government could properly vet them.

So, suspending the first amendment is a temporary measure then.

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

So, suspending the first amendment is a temporary measure then.

Good lord... Take the joint out of your mouth... Non-US citizens outside this country are not protected by the constitution. Otherwise, why don't we have all kinds of ground troops in Syria?

Wow.

ColoradoEagle · December 8, 2015

The constitution/bill of rights applies to people entering the country, citizen or not, unless there is a superseding law.

MeanGreenTexan · December 8, 2015

Stop listening to the media and listen to what trump actually said.
...

To be honest, this is very difficult for me. Because the dude is so flippant by nature, yet the position he is striving for is grave. So to hear him address the potential responsibilities/issues with such callousness is a major turnoff. But, when I listened to him on this topic, I heard a bunch of people cheering wildly when the "ban" word came up... just wondered if you were one of those who would have been cheering.

UNT90 · December 8, 2015

To be honest, this is very difficult for me. Because the dude is so flippant by nature, yet the position he is striving for is grave. So to hear him address the potential responsibilities/issues with such callousness is a major turnoff. But, when I listened to him on this topic, I heard a bunch of people cheering wildly when the "ban" word came up... just wondered if you were one of those who would have been cheering.

Nice try. I wouldn't vote for Trump if I was a 120 year old dead democrat. He is a product of liberal political correctness, and he scares me.

foutsrouts · December 8, 2015

I wouldn't vote for Trump either, because I think he's a loose cannon who could even turn out to be borderline psychotic. That's not to say that I don't agree with some of his more moderate thoughts, and does anyone really believe that we haven't already been surveilling certain mosques since 9/11 and likely before?

Considering the competition and the current climate, he could very well win the nomination, but I don't see him as being electable in the general election due to his turning off too many moderates. Of course that could all change with a few more major terrorist events.

MeanGreenTexan · December 8, 2015

Nice try. I wouldn't vote for Trump if I was a 120 year old dead democrat. He is a product of liberal political correctness, and he scares me.

Do you mean 'by-product'? Because there's nothing liberal or politically correct about him. You have to admit, his support numbers are insanely high, so there is a possibility he actually gets the nomination, right?

FirefightnRick · December 8, 2015

NBC: ISIS Trail Of Death

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-trail-death-n475861

Since October 10, ISIS and its sympathizers around the world have killed at least 525 people in six attacks in six countries outside its so-called caliphate....

Rick

Edited December 8, 2015 by FirefightnRick