Issue with Vito's opinion

untjim1995 · November 20, 2015

B.S.

There were 40k Mean Green fans at the Heart of Dallas Bowl because the university as a whole marketed the hell out of the game. Hell even the alumni association were marketing the game to get people out there. And we only got 40K because the game was in Dallas and convenient for our apathetic fan base.

Winning will solidify the fandom of current students and recent grad who live close by. But that's not what we need to worry about. We need to worry about the tens of thousands of alums who graduated between 1978 and 1998.

There are three types of Mean Green fans that I can identify. They were students during the Missouri Valley Conference days when we were pretty damn good (and this includes the Mean Joe Greene era, students during the Hayden Fry years of the Flying Worm, and students during the last 15 years, the Dickey years until now. Notice a gap? Nobody but @FirefightnRicknRick talks about their love for the 1-AA years. (Ok there are a more than a few of y'all on here but you know what Im talking about). This university had a good 20 year stretch where football really WAS marginalized and was a complete afterthought in the grand scheme of things. These alums are at the age where their children are starting to enter college or will soon be and are going to be looking back at UNT for the first time in years. These are people we need to reach and be cheerleaders to. Can we reach every one of them and bring them back to the nest? No of course not, but every one that we can bring in is another butt in a seat at Apogee and dollar for the Mean Green Club that didn't exist before. And one less alum who will be a UT or TCU t-shirt fan.

Baylor and TCU were the whipping boys of the Southwest Conference for the better part of 50 years. Their recent surge in wins has happened concurrently with massive outreach to alums by their athletic departments and alumni associations, using a winning football team as a convenient reason to get people back on campus and reconnect with the school. That is where we have failed. Mac was out and about around town all the time acting as the #1 advocate of the program because he understood the first place to start was to get any and everyone in Denton who was in anyway connected to the school to get out to the games. Then you can work on the other 237,000 alumni in DFW.

You are so dead-on about the missing generations of UNT fans--its the killer for the program. You have thousands of alumni you pissed away when we went down to I-aa in 1983, thousands of students/alumni of that time who never got engaged at all, and now their kids of an age that they grew up as fans of UT, OU, A&M, etc...because we 1/4 assed it with athletics.

Baylor was actually a pretty good program under Grant Teaff from the mid 70s thru the early 90s, often ranked, and won a few SWC championships in that time. TCU was a piñata for the last 50 years of the SWC, except for a year or two here and there. TCU and Rice were the whipping boys, for sure. But what always helped both of them was that they had moneyed alumni, had civic partnerships with their cities that helped with attendance, and they played opponents, especially Baylor, that drew people to their games. Literally, not one of those three things have ever been on North Texas' side. We are a teacher's school and fine arts' school, as well as being a "value" school to get your degree with as little connection to the university as possible. Denton has been apathetic to us, at best, hostile, at worst, certainly nothing like what FW has been for TCU. And we have played "spares" in the media's eyes and casual fans' eyes for decades, meaning very few people ever came up to Denton to watch us play from those schools playing here or from casual outsiders that would rather stay at home and watch football on TV or drive to Waco to watch Baylor play A&M or TCU play Texas Tech.

The HoD Bowl drew thousands of MG fans, yet the very next season, after the best season we had seen here in a decade and an economy that had actually been improving, our season ticket bas DROPPED...WTF?? Denton doesn't care about who we play and if we don't give them a decent season or opponent, we don't get our stadium 2/3rd full. Just as we saw with the crowds in NO for the bowl games and the NCAA Tournament appearance, as well as the other NCAA appearance in Oklahoma City, we have people who show up to those events who couldn't identify the Super Pit or Apogee/Fouts on a map of the campus because they have never set a foot inside one of them. To be honest, after 25 years of watching all of this, I'm convinced more than ever that it probably won't ever change. Of course, we haven't really tried sustained winning over a stretch of seasons against teams people care about, so maybe that does change everything, support-wise. But the Fry years and the Dickey years of winning teams didn't move the needle other than a game a season that drew crowds that would fill the stadium at more than 2/3rds of capacity. Maybe Apogee finally changes this, as well as playing in CUSA, but people didn't show up to watch MUTS, WKU, or F_U when we were in the SBC, as well as so far in CUSA, so I don't see that changing very much in the future. I think we will continue to see SMU and Army as games that draw well at Apogee, as in over 20k, but that's about it, unless we are winning and playing a team like UTEP that also brings some fans with them.

Mad Hatter · November 20, 2015

The key is beating schools people have heard about which isn't going to happen quickly, but HAS to happen. The Dickey era was nice, but we were always viewed as beating spares. Nobody gives a crap about beating a lower tier (perception) school like ULL, ULM, FAU, FIU, USA, ASU, MTSU, etc.... We are in the DFW market. We are surrounded by people that went to Big 12 and SEC schools. We need to be able to play them competitively. Ultimately the goal should be to win some of those games. As long as we're the whipping boy of the "Big Boys" you're not going to change public perception. Scheduling 2-3 pay check games a year kills your public perception. Facilities and conference killed the Dickey era success.

But - It all starts with winning. You have to win against the lower tier schools and not put yourself in a position of playing the 'Body Bag" games for a while. See TCU in the early 2000's. They kept winning. They won their conference, and played other similar level teams and kept winning those. Eventually they started to be noticed by the fans of big schools who would say "yeah but they haven't played anyone". That's when they started playing the "Big Boys" again, and being competitive and started winning those too.

Travis · November 20, 2015

The crowds dropped in 2014 from 2013 because WE ALL realized very very early that this wasn't a fun team to watch. It is that simple. From game 1 we realized this was a mess. And by the La Tech game, it was over. there was clearly no interest because only the die-hards would care to come back. I don't blame those fans, who would want to pay to watch the team we have seen the past two years?!

It aint rocket surgery.... Wins will fix almost all our ills. And by wins... i mean CONSISTENTLY. not some one-hit wonder like 2013 was when we played the weakest CUSA in probably ever...

risinggreen · November 20, 2015

UNT needs to focus on wins, that's it. Once the program starts winning, everyone will follow. I don't care if the head coach is worse than Bo Polini, we need a guy who can get wins first. Once you start winning, everything else will follow.
People have been told the same thing for 10+ years, come out and support. Guess what, they have and UNT has let them down every time. Until the university can put a consistent product out on the field, we're going to experience some heavy volatility.

So true. At least we are not alone in the fair weather fan category. It will obviously take several years of consistent winning for that to change for us. Like many, I was fooled into thinking we had finally begun to turn that corner two years ago.

LongJim · November 20, 2015

Denton doesn't care about who we play and if we don't give them a decent season or opponent, we don't get our stadium 2/3rd full. Maybe Apogee finally changes this, as well as playing in CUSA, but people didn't show up to watch MUTS, WKU, or F_U when we were in the SBC, as well as so far in CUSA, so I don't see that changing very much in the future. I think we will continue to see SMU and Army as games that draw well at Apogee, as in over 20k, but that's about it, unless we are winning and playing a team like UTEP that also brings some fans with them.

I agree with a lot of this. The "old" CUSA lineup would have been ideal, but IMO, you have to get teams in that the average Joe knows--AND/OR--get old SWC schools to come to Apogee on occasion. The Baylors, the OK States, the KSU's, Houston. You keep trying with Tech, aTm and Texas. Even someone like Vandy, Georgia Tech, etc. Why? Because those teams travel, and DFW fans will come watch. Even if for only 1 non-con game per year.

aztecskin · November 20, 2015

I love how Vito will engage the fans with the blog. It is great! Thanks for that.

I think the decline in attendance from 2013 to 2014 was obvious that by the half of the 2014 season we all knew it was a lost season. I do think winning will solve most every problem... but, mostly it is consistent winning. The flash in the pan in 2013 is simply not enough for us to get to BSU type numbers. We need to win, and keep doing it for more than just a 13 week time span.

Agree with you. Vito completely ignored the trend just to make a point.

Via CFBSTATS.

SMU 22, 398 - First home game.
La Tech 16,998 - Middle of week game.
Nicholls 21,323 - Homecoming
So Miss 19,127 - This after two straight weeks of shellackings to Indiana and UAB.
FAU - 20, 957 - After Rice blowout. Not bad still.
FIU - 14,824 - This really killed it. Week before Thanksgiving. Losing record.

For comparison's sake, our biggest attendance games in 2013 came later in the year after wins. Compare year to year -- FIU to UTSA. The 19K that we got on a cold ass day was pretty awesome and evidence that winning = attendance. r

Team Schedule 2013
Date	Opponent	Result	Game Time	Attendance
@ : Away, + : Neutral Site
08/31/13	Idaho	W 40-6	3:08	21,975
09/07/13	@ Ohio	L 21-27	3:10	24,511
09/14/13	Ball St.	W 34-27	3:54	14,747
09/21/13	@ Georgia	L 21-45	3:32	92,746
10/05/13	@ Tulane	L 21-24	3:23	20,734
10/12/13	Middle Tenn. St.	W 34-7	2:45	21,171
10/19/13	@ Louisiana Tech	W 28-13	3:11	20,317
10/26/13	@ Southern Miss.	W 55-14	3:17	23,203
10/31/13	Rice	W 28-16	3:04	22,835
11/09/13	UTEP	W 41-7	3:03	26,119
11/23/13	UTSA	L 13-21	3:10	19,335
11/30/13	@ Tulsa	W 42-10	3:18	17,792
01/01/14	+ UNLV	W 36-14	3:27	38,380

MeanGreenHoops · November 20, 2015

Agree with you. Vito completely ignored the trend just to make a point.
Via CFBSTATS.
SMU 22, 398 - First home game.
La Tech 16,998 - Middle of week game.
Nicholls 21,323 - Homecoming
So Miss 19,127 - This after two straight weeks of shellackings to Indiana and UAB.
FAU - 20, 957 - After Rice blowout. Not bad still.
FIU - 14,824 - This really killed it. Week before Thanksgiving. Losing record.
For comparison's sake, our biggest attendance games in 2013 came later in the year after wins. Compare year to year -- FIU to UTSA. The 19K that we got on a cold ass day was pretty awesome and evidence that winning = attendance. r

Team Schedule 2013
@ : Away, + : Neutral Site
Date Opponent Result Game Time Attendance
08/31/13 Idaho W 40-6 3:08 21,975
09/07/13 @ Ohio L 21-27 3:10 24,511
09/14/13 Ball St. W 34-27 3:54 14,747
09/21/13 @ Georgia L 21-45 3:32 92,746
10/05/13 @ Tulane L 21-24 3:23 20,734
10/12/13 Middle Tenn. St. W 34-7 2:45 21,171
10/19/13 @ Louisiana Tech W 28-13 3:11 20,317
10/26/13 @ Southern Miss. W 55-14 3:17 23,203
10/31/13 Rice W 28-16 3:04 22,835
11/09/13 UTEP W 41-7 3:03 26,119
11/23/13 UTSA L 13-21 3:10 19,335
11/30/13 @ Tulsa W 42-10 3:18 17,792
01/01/14 + UNLV W 36-14 3:27 38,380

The real problem with Vito's point and several others on here that say winning won't cure all is they use the Dickey years to prove it not true.

But go back and look at those seasons. We got off to awful starts in everyone of them.

2001 - 0-5
2002 - 1-5
2003 - 1-3
2004 - 0-4

Of course the attendance was bad. We seemingly were terrible, then whipped the Sun Belt. Each year the fans would think well maybe this year we'll be better, but then be terrible and then whip the Sun Belt.

2013 was different in that we started 2-2 and then kept winning. That could have been the start of something but it wasn't.

So saying winning won't cure all can't even be argued because we haven't done it since the 70's!

Rudy · November 20, 2015

Vito isn't going to get fired from the DRC if he asks those questions. He will get frozen out by the UNT athletic department, which will hurt his access to the programs. Belo won't fire Vito for that, they'll just ask him to cover more Denton County high school stuff and cover UNT almost like a correspondent.
And then we would have nobody to give us any decent coverage of this place.

That's not true. We have our own Baghdad Bob on the board. Surely he will tell us everything we need to know.

Now, whether or not its true or accurate is another matter.

Mean_Green09 · November 20, 2015

My issue is that he never took the time to listen to our podcast. That was quality stuff that doesnt get enough pub.

aztecskin · November 20, 2015

The real problem with Vito's point and several others on here that say winning won't cure all is they use the Dickey years to prove it not true.
But go back and look at those seasons. We got off to awful starts in everyone of them.
2001 - 0-5
2002 - 1-5
2003 - 1-3
2004 - 0-4
Of course the attendance was bad. We seemingly were terrible, then whipped the Sun Belt. Each year the fans would think well maybe this year we'll be better, but then be terrible and then whip the Sun Belt.
2013 was different in that we started 2-2 and then kept winning. That could have been the start of something but it wasn't.
So saying winning won't cure all can't even be argued because we haven't done it since the 70's!

Totally agree. And as great as four straight NO Bowls were, we went 1-3 in them.