Billboard anyone?

flyonthewall · November 15, 2015

I have looked at the attendance numbers. We are already sitting in an empty stadium. We are not poo pooing on anyone, you are poo pooing on us. We are already paying for everything ourselves. It's not like 15000 people are walking away from an attendance average of 30000.

Thats my point. You guys for the most part have been a non factor financially. I know some of you have given money, yourself, Barone, Denny Caulk to name a few. But the financial impact of most of you leaving will be minimal, and when we get a dynamic coach in here because we, (meaning donors that can help and the top leadership above the athletic director) have realized that we have to open up our wallets this time, then you guys will be back.

Just because the people that support the university, the chairman of the board of regents, and the president and athletic department aren't saying anything on internet boards, doesn't mean they don't exist.

You keep saying that we are not supporting the program, that is just BULLSHIT, and not fair. I dare you to say that anywhere besides behind a computer screen 85 miles away. I may load Kuehne up in my golf cart and bring him over November 28th and let you say that to him. That will be fun.

greenit · November 15, 2015

I have looked at the attendance numbers. We are already sitting in an empty stadium. We are not poo pooing on anyone, you are poo pooing on us. We are already paying for everything ourselves. It's not like 15000 people are walking away from an attendance average of 30000.
Thats my point. You guys for the most part have been a non factor financially. I know some of you have given money, yourself, Barone, Denny Caulk to name a few. But the financial impact of most of you leaving will be minimal, and when we get a dynamic coach in here because we, (meaning donors that can help and the top leadership above the athletic director) have realized that we have to open up our wallets this time, then you guys will be back.

Just because the people that support the university, the chairman of the board of regents, and the president and athletic department aren't saying anything on internet boards, doesn't mean they don't exist.
You keep saying that we are not supporting the program, that is just BULLSHIT, and not fair. I dare you to say that anywhere besides behind a computer screen 85 miles away. I may load Kuehne up in my golf cart and bring him over November 28th and let you say that to him. That will be fun.

I've witnessed the results of your driving skills. Please don't do that to Ernie.

UNT90 · November 15, 2015

I have looked at the attendance numbers. We are already sitting in an empty stadium. We are not poo pooing on anyone, you are poo pooing on us. We are already paying for everything ourselves. It's not like 15000 people are walking away from an attendance average of 30000.
Thats my point. You guys for the most part have been a non factor financially. I know some of you have given money, yourself, Barone, Denny Caulk to name a few. But the financial impact of most of you leaving will be minimal, and when we get a dynamic coach in here because we, (meaning donors that can help and the top leadership above the athletic director) have realized that we have to open up our wallets this time, then you guys will be back.

Just because the people that support the university, the chairman of the board of regents, and the president and athletic department aren't saying anything on internet boards, doesn't mean they don't exist.
You keep saying that we are not supporting the program, that is just BULLSHIT, and not fair. I dare you to say that anywhere besides behind a computer screen 85 miles away. I may load Kuehne up in my golf cart and bring him over November 28th and let you say that to him. That will be fun.

Every public appearance is that you support a man, not a program. If the 17 large donors wanted RV out, he would be gone quicker than Dan McCarney, A guy with a better performance record than RV. He isn't. He is knee deep in the next coaching hire, which history shows will be another disaster. That inaction says way more than words.

I'd love to have a chat with Ernie. You know where my tailgate is. I don't, and never have, hidden behind anything. And you of all people know that. Maybe you guys can tell me in person that the public perception of your support of RV is wrong. But then why is he still AD at UNT? Since I don't own a golf cart for tailgating, I'll let you guys make the ride over.

If you have forgotten where I tailgate, look for the flags flying in distress.

rcade · November 15, 2015

We have been funding a huge portion of it on our own already. So how is a couple of thousand bucks when some walk away going to change things? I just spent 5 minutes reviewing every donation level of mean green club membership. I could not find the name "Rogers Cadenhead" anywhere. So you are a shining example of what Ward White (wardly) was asking. Seriously, have you ever donated to the athletic department? Because you didn't this year, or excuse me if you were left off of the list.
So thanks for the help Rogers, and keep lobbing rocks from afar in Florida while giving no financial help. That will change things.

After joining the Mean Green Club in 2006, I stopped giving money a few years ago. I got tired of funding so much losing, and on the rare occasion that I got a mailing from the athletic department, they got my name wrong. I could never get them to fix that stupid mistake. In all the years I was a member, I got one response from an athletics department employee to a communication I sent.

In my experience, the athletic department under RV has been half-assed about sustaining relationships with long-distance alumni. All the marketing I got assumed I was attending games in person. I found my money and time better spent supporting the program outside of official channels. I contributed money to the student campaign to get the student athletic fee passed, for instance.

If you think the exodus of long-time UNT fans will only amount to a couple thousand bucks lost, you might be out of touch with the common fan. All those empty seats at Apogee and the Super Pit should tell you something. The polls here running 90% or more for a change at AD should tell you something -- GoMeanGreen is full of people who have supported the school for decades, and we're as unhappy as we've been in the 13 years I've been a member.

Yet none of this disgruntlement has rated a response from Smatresk or a response from RV that is anything other than weak excuses and a dismissal of critics. Did you know Fouts Field attendance sucked when he took over? He's still talking about that 14 years into his tenure, as if we should never raise our expectations despite the new stadium, athletic fee and coaching salary upgrades.

I respect that you contribute big checks to the program. You don't seem to respect that we're a group of fans who matter too.

You are a lot better at criticizing other fans than trying to persuade anybody that RV has a record as AD worth extending another 3-5 years with the hiring of a new football coach. Instead, you don't even think the school president should say anything to fans that might change minds.

That boggles my mind. It's like you think there is zero requirement for accountability from Smatresk or RV.

P.s. Since you brought my name into this, what's yours?

Edited November 15, 2015 by rcade

UNT90 · November 15, 2015

Also Fly, your biggest fear should be that the billboard doesn't fund, which is looking likely at this point. That means that a lot of angry fans have given up and walked away from the program.

And you will get asked by your friend to write yet a bigger check.

flyonthewall · November 15, 2015

After joining the Mean Green Club in 2006, I stopped giving money a few years ago. I got tired of funding so much losing, and on the rare occasion that I got a mailing from the athletic department, they got my name wrong. I could never get them to fix that stupid mistake. In all the years I was a member, I got one response from an athletics department employee to a communication I sent.
In my experience, the athletic department under RV has been half-assed about sustaining relationships with long-distance alumni. All the marketing I got assumed I was attending games in person. I found my money and time better spent supporting the program outside of official channels. I contributed money to the student campaign to get the student athletic fee passed, for instance.

This is constructive criticism.

David and Julie Anderson, google it with "North Texas". You can even find pictures.

I encourage you to be part of the solution and renew your commitment to the Mean Green Club. It only, and I mean only, supports student athlete scholarships. For a gift to go anywhere else it has to be designated for something other than the Mean Green Club, Ie "capital campaign for basketball practice facility" or "golf practice facility".

Please don't stop funding scholarships for kids that might otherwise not have a way to pay for school.

FirefightnRick · November 15, 2015

My favorite question I have been answering over the last couple of years, "Rick, who are these fools that still keep your athletic director in his job?".."No other school in the country would ever tolerate such incompetence".....

I just smile, shake my head and say..."you answered your own question right there".

Rick

UNT90 · November 15, 2015

My favorite question I have been answering over the last couple of years, "Rick, who are these fools that still keep your athletic director in his job?".."No other school in the country would ever tolerate such incompetence".....
I just smile, shake my head and say..."you answered your own question right there".

Rick

I get that often. Usually from grads of successful programs.

Ben Gooding · November 15, 2015

Fly, you're being foolish. And you are being played like a drum I might add. We, the majority, may not be 15K walking away from 30K. We are though (and it will only grow apparent) 15K walking away from 20K. If you and your bad decisions are OK with that then so be it. Your arguments are invalid and have no substance. Also, you think saying nothing as the leader of this University is OK? I suppose that should come as no surprise coming from you. You don't want Smastrek to talk. I mean, why would you? This athletic program is pathetic and you are blind to it. We SUCK. Everything about this department is piss poor. Yet, you sit there and mock people on here. I don't give a damn about any of the current donors and their current giving levels. They could (and should) stop giving and I would not care. A new AD would replace all of them and add on many more. You are replaceable as are all of your buddies. Remember that.

Oh and the "mack truck" comment wasn't directed at you. Our fan base sucks because of all the losing our current AD has created. Apathy has engulfed this fan base in large part to losing. Losing was established and developed by you main man, Rick Villarreal.

FirefightnRick · November 15, 2015

We have been funding a huge portion of it on our own already. So how is a couple of thousand bucks when some walk away going to change things? I just spent 5 minutes reviewing every donation level of mean green club membership. I could not find the name "Rogers Cadenhead" anywhere. So you are a shining example of what Ward White (wardly) was asking. Seriously, have you ever donated to the athletic department? Because you didn't this year, or excuse me if you were left off of the list.
So thanks for the help Rogers, and keep lobbing rocks from afar in Florida while giving no financial help. That will change things.

This is how I envisioned the athletic department would go on the offense against it's fans. Full blown dysfunction at it's best.

Wow...just wow!

Rick

KingDL1 · November 15, 2015

I was wondering how much do our big donor's get rewarded? Do they get school contracts?

UNT90 · November 15, 2015

But the financial impact of most of you leaving will be minimal, and when we get a dynamic coach in here because we, (meaning donors that can help and the top leadership above the athletic director) have realized that we have to open up our wallets this time, then you guys will be back.

I just re-read this and the above is really shocking in its arrogance and ignorance.

How many times have you seen me back at basketball games? Once a year is the answer.

Losing 5000 paying fans would be a big blow to this program. They just don't buy tickets. They buy merchandise, concessions, and talk others into attending.

But you don't care and are willing to pay the difference, blissfully believing RV will finally get a coaching hire right and draw myself and others back.

That will take years.

But hey, you keep getting to be the big fish in the little pond, and that's always been the biggest benefit of being a large donor at UNT.

Ben Gooding · November 15, 2015

I just re-read this and the above is really shocking in its arrogance and ignorance.
How many times have you seen me back at basketball games? Once a year is the answer.
Losing 5000 paying fans would be a big blow to this program. They just don't buy tickets. They buy merchandise, concessions, and talk others into attending.
But you don't care and are willing to pay the difference, blissfully believing RV will finally get a coaching hire right and draw myself and others back.
That will take years.
But hey, you keep getting to be the big fish in the little pond, and that's always been the biggest benefit of being a large donor at UNT.

Yeah, fly is gonna say fly things regardless of the lack of sense it makes.

oldguystudent · November 15, 2015

Who the hell just said nobody cares about girls' sports? Do none of us have daughters?

I look at the money I give (which as Fly has aptly stated is minimal in the grand picture, but it's marginally large relative to my income -- when I started, it was over 4% of my gross income. Now it's a tad over 3%), and I think I'm getting two separate things for my money.

1) I'm getting sports entertainment with some fancy schmancy seats in a shiny new stadium. That part of the picture isn't working out so well lately. Will it get better? I honestly don't know.

2) I'm giving money that's helping kids across ALL athletics, men's and women's, revenue and non-revenue, that's helping kids get an education that they may not have otherwise had opportunity to pursue.

Like I said, I received undeserved financial assistance when I was going to school here, and I feel an obligation to pay that back in perpetuity. If any of us are incapable of seeing the value of the second point above, then we are living our lives with some rather skewed priorities.

I think Fly nailed it when he relayed telling others in the group of large donors that a lot of the anger stems from nobody showing us little people what the vision is. The cloak and dagger operations of college sports has always perplexed me from day one. I think I have a relatively good idea of what's really going down right now, but I don't know for certain.

I do know that David and Julie made a decision years ago to be substantial supporters of the university, and let me tell each and every one of you, don't ever even hint that Julie is getting played like a fiddle. She's the most savvy among all of us. Knowing what I know of them, why they give, and how they operate, I do have faith that the big donors are doing things in support of the university that go faaar beyond the velvet rope perks we peons perceive.

I learned not to rage quit anymore some six years ago, and both sides of this entertaining little debate played significant roles in keeping me around.

Whatever happens with the football team (and to a lesser extent, the basketball team) is not nearly as important to me as the smiling faces from student athletes that we see from time to time, offering gratitude for their opportunity to represent the University of North Texas, and their opportunity to acquire a solid, quality education.

Meanwhile, my daughter, who doesn't play sports, but wields a pretty mean saxophone, begins her application process for TAMS this coming July. She's going to have her time as an Eagle. Nothing related to athletics is going to change our goals for that accomplishment. But even she has told me, "I can't wait to go to a football game on my own student ticket!"

FirefightnRick · November 15, 2015

I was wondering how much do our big donor's get rewarded? Do they get school contracts?

A well placed FOI would shine some light on some things, wouldn't it?

Rick

Ben Gooding · November 15, 2015

I guess people are now defending RV with women sports. Joy. That is called digging deep.

I don't even think RV hired the current women's soccer coach. And if he did...I DON'T CARE. If he didn't, no surprise.

UNT90 · November 15, 2015

A well placed FOI would shine some light on some things, wouldn't it?

Rick

Vito?

What was I thinking...

Sidway?

FirefightnRick · November 15, 2015

I just re-read this and the above is really shocking in its arrogance and ignorance.
How many times have you seen me back at basketball games? Once a year is the answer.
Losing 5000 paying fans would be a big blow to this program. They just don't buy tickets. They buy merchandise, concessions, and talk others into attending.
But you don't care and are willing to pay the difference, blissfully believing RV will finally get a coaching hire right and draw myself and others back.
That will take years.
But hey, you keep getting to be the big fish in the little pond, and that's always been the biggest benefit of being a large donor at UNT.

And you know where that is coming from too. Which explains a whole lot about what we have witnessed.

This was evident when RV's AD of Marketing told @Emmitt the time he approached them with help a couple of years ago regarding the first home game...telling him .."Home openers are self-promoters".

It's a..."Don't concern ourselves with those we've run off because each fall brings a new crop of freshmen" mentality.

These people couldn't promote the second coming I swear.

Rick

Army of Dad · November 15, 2015

I think @oldguystudent was right. This is getting to be too much like a war.

Everyone on both sides needs to tone down the rhetoric.

@flyonthewall we disagree, but I certainly respect your generosity and efforts for the program. With his more recent public comments RV took a deuce on the fanbase as the topping of a turd sundae. I'm not sure that the perceived ivory tower attitude that is being projected by RV and his defenders will ever result in anything positive.

laxtonto · November 15, 2015

There are two issues here.

1. Confusing the large donors previous ability to solely float the financial decisions of the AD in the past as a longterm positive for the future. In the past, that was the vehicle to be applauded as the sole primary driver of revenue for an AD, and therefore the large scale donors where the sole backbone of the funding arm. Unfortunately, with how the overall cost structure in college athletics has changed, cultivating the small pool of large scale donors is not enough anymore. The problem is both a sunk cost problem in facility and vendor per game fees the necessitate the absolute need for a dramatic increase in the low level MGC member base to break even as well as a much broader issue of a numbers game that eventually even with multiple deep pocket donors you will quickly outstrip how deep that funding pile goes. Athletic spending has rapidly increased across all sports and more importantly the growth in costs will continue to escalate at a rate greater the most robust estimates of any form of financial performance. At some point, sooner rather than later, the ability of the select few highend donors won't be enough. More than likely, for a school our size and with our overall athletic goals it is already rapidly approaching if not already have hit that ceiling.

2. Many of the concerns on both sides are heavily tied to the outcomes of the past and not firmly enough tied to the visions of the future. It is very easy to dismiss the MGC entry-level donors as being a limited cog in the funding arm because of the marginal overall proportional funding each right now provides. The problem though is that each small fish has the potential to become a big fish. The most effective way to continue to supplement the existing highend donor base is to cultivate the low level donor and let the highend numbers grow organically. By dismissing the lack of effort the AD has put into strengthening the low-level base as an insignificant quibble, you not only limit the numbers of butts in the seats, but more importantly you limit the potential of highend donors in the future. By not building those relationships starting out, it makes it that much more difficult to convince someone at the high level to donate to UNT athletics instead of earmarking those funds to other philanthropic outlets.

I come out of the business school and I literally know dozens of graduates that make 100k+ a year that never have had an active pursuit from UNT athletics. These are young professionals in their late 20's and 30's that over the next 30 years have the potential to easily move from a 1-2k year donation to a 10k or more a year donation. 2k a year isnt much in the grand scheme of things at the program level, but 1,000 of them is 2M in donation revenue, plus a major move towards the breakeven point at per game sunk cost level and then an added residual bonus from in game sales of apparel and concessions. The median business school undergrad starting salary is now around 53k, with around 5k students enrollment. So every 4-5 years there are 5k more alumni at can afford a 500-1k funding level donation (1-2%). These numbers add up quickly overtime and allow the small fish to eventually become big fish.

Our funding issues are actually a twofold problem; not enough big donors and not enough small donors. The small donors should be able to provide the base for annual operations and longterm funding growth goals. That would allow our big donors the ability to be there to provide that needed bump for capital projects, coaching decisions and the wide variety of other nontraditional funding needs. By neglecting the low level funding base it is heaping too much financial stress on the highend donors to have to provide for all the funding needs of the AD, which is both unfair to them and begins to drive a wedge between the two groups from a have vs have not perception.

The inability to grow the MGC is probably the biggest complaint I have RV. I was upset for a long time for his ineffectual hires, but from a big picture level the horrible efforts in growing the MGC as a funding arm is the more egregious issue.

Edited November 16, 2015 by laxtonto

oldguystudent · November 15, 2015

I literally know dozens of graduates that make 100k+ a year

Christopher Walker · November 16, 2015

This. This is the primary issue for me and the reason I cannot acquiesce to the argument from up high. It seems to be "your contribution is meager to the grand scheme of things, so we'll carry on without you" when the small-donor base should be cultivated aggressively so as to ensure an actually stable foundation with which to operate by.

----

The other half to my complaint is seeing how up and down dysfunctional the whole of the AD is, and to see individual departments on campus far excel anything the crew on Bonnie Brae can muster; from ticketing, marketing, programming, to live streaming or hell general media, and development. Rick Villarreal oversees all of that and he fails at it soooo hard.

----

@flyonthewall

David, hypothetical: since I know you feel this moment is finally, finally right and all the necessary pieces are in place for the right hire, what would your reaction be if four years from now we're looking at the same? A team with four-five wins at best per year, a coach at $1.2M per, and average attendance of 12,000?

What then?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Christopher Walker

Ben Gooding · November 16, 2015

This. This is the primary issue for me and the reason I cannot acquiesce to the argument from up high. It seems to be "your contribution is meager to the grand scheme of things, so we'll carry on without you" when the small-donor base should be cultivated aggressively so as to ensure an actually stable foundation with which to operate by.
----
The other half to my complaint is seeing how up and down dysfunctional the whole of the AD is, and to see individual departments on campus far excel anything the crew on Bonnie Brae can muster; from ticketing, marketing, programming, to live streaming or hell general media, and development. Rick Villarreal oversees all of that and he fails at it soooo hard.
----
@flyonthewall
David, hypothetical: since I know you feel this moment is finally, finally right and all the necessary pieces are in place for the right hire, what would your reaction be if four years from now we're looking at the same? A team with four-five wins at best per year, a coach at $1.2M per, and average attendance of 12,000?
What then?

Your last scenario can happen and with our current leadership and history under that leadership there is no reason as to think otherwise.

They should be soaking in every small donor that UNT can muster. They are the backbone of real athletic programs. Here, we are the "minute." It's such a dumb, stupid way of thinking and horribly bad for business. Yet, RV is just chillin'.

Cerebus · November 16, 2015

I come out of the business school and I literally know dozens of graduates that make 100k+ a year that never have had an active pursuit from UNT athletics. These are young professionals in their late 20's and 30's that over the next 30 years have the potential to easily move from a 1-2k year donation to a 10k or more a year donation. 2k a year isnt much in the grand scheme of things at the program level, but 1,000 of them is 2M in donation revenue, plus a major move towards the breakeven point at per game sunk cost level and then an added residual bonus from in game sales of apparel and concessions. The median business school undergrad starting salary is now around 53k, with around 5k students enrollment. So every 4-5 years there are 5k more alumni at can afford a 500-1k funding level donation (1-2%). These numbers add up quickly overtime and allow the small fish to eventually become big fish.

The AD's published goal was 3K MGC members by 2004. We are at less than 1000 members right now. Those missing 2000 donors means that millions, if not tens of millions, are missing from the revenue stream. Those people would not only pay their MGC dues, they would buy season tickets, they would buy merchandise, they would buy kettle corn, and perhaps most importantly they would bring friends to the games converting some % of them into new MGC donors.

We have somewhere between 300,000 to 350,000 living alumni, depending on whose estimates you believe, 3000 would be 1% (or less) of alumni and we aren't even a third of the way there.

greenit · November 16, 2015

While ultimately responsible, RV should not be spending his time on $2k and under donors. He has a senior associate AD whose job it is to run the MGC as well as ticketing as well as generating new donors.

His name is John Nittardy. He has done nothing but seemingly go backwards since he got here. I hope someone is reviewing his track record since he arrived. His seat should be extremely warm imo.