November 2010 to present; what has really changed?

[UNT90]

Maybe the locals don't come out because we have had losing seasons 10 of the last 11 years...

[rcade]

I still think you're coming from an insider's point of view.

You presume too much. I'm following the program from a long way off in Florida. Work doesn't let me travel to games. My interest is closer to the level of the casual fan than that of an Apogee tailgater.

You agree with me that other fans will razz us about the Portland State loss. You agree that we need to win to attract bandwagoners. So it's not like I'm seeing this much differently than you.

I tire of people saying "nobody cares anyway" when a statement is made that quantifies about how much our football team stinks under RV.

If you believe it doesn't matter when we suck, you're also saying it doesn't matter when we win. So why bother? We put a lot of money into Apogee and the salaries of the football coach and AD under the premise that it would benefit our school to succeed in this sport.

[Army of Dad]

Maybe we just need to accept the fact we were best off in the Sun Belt.  We will draw the same crowds as CUSA games and be able to compete on lower stage.  I just find it so hard to believe the locals dont support the local teams or universities.  Lets face the fact the universities are what make denton otherwise we would be gainesville.

What, exactly, has UNT done to inspire the residents of Denton to come out in droves for football games?

Large state universities typically rely on alumni to fill their stadiums on game day. The only reason you are bitching about Denton residents is because alumni do not care to go to games in significant numbers.

 

[MeanGreenTexan]

You presume too much. I'm following the program from a long way off in Florida. Work doesn't let me travel to games. My interest is closer to the level of the casual fan than that of an Apogee tailgater.

You agree with me that other fans will razz us about the Portland State loss. You agree that we need to win to attract bandwagoners. So it's not like I'm seeing this much differently than you.

I tire of people saying "nobody cares anyway" when a statement is made that quantifies about how much our football team stinks under RV.

If you believe it doesn't matter when we suck, you're also saying it doesn't matter when we win. So why bother? We put a lot of money into Apogee and the salaries of the football coach and AD under the premise that it would benefit our school to succeed in this sport.

You're still posting on a UNT fan message board.  You're an insider.

People will only razz you (if they know you're a UNT fan) for a few weeks, then forget.   We need to win *consistently* to attract bandwagoners, otherwise, it's just ebbing-&-flowing.  People will jump on and jump right back off.

Take, for instance Ball State's success under Brady Hoke.  They won quite a bit and got the attention of national media.  Then, had a breakout year in 2008 to the tune of a 10-2 season.  But then they didn't hire the right guy when Hoke left and they're back down to earth.   That is an example of ebbs-&-flows.   Same thing happened to the team Ball St. lost to in their bowl game that year: Tulsa, under Todd Graham.

The "nobody cares anyway" sentiment applies now, and it applies to the past, but there's no reason we should not strive to change it for the future.  It's critical to hire the right coaches and recruit the right players though.

[FirefightnRick]

Since the PSU game I've been asked by dozens of FF's on the job "Who are y'all going after" as Mac's replacement?  Every football fan I know is aware we have an opening and why.

 

Rick

[MeanGreenTexan]

Since the PSU game I've been asked by dozens of FF's on the job "Who are y'all going after" as Mac's replacement?  Every football fan I know is aware we have an opening and why.

 

Rick

...Because they know you're an ardent supporter of UNT.   If you weren't there, do you think NT football would be discussed at all?

[rcade]

You're still posting on a UNT fan message board.  You're an insider.

You post here too, yet you're claiming expertise on how much non-UNT fans care (or don't care) about this program.

Maybe you should just accept that this is a difference of opinion.

[rcade]

But do you think North Texas crosses their mind if it wasn't for having a visible fan nearby?

I think most college football fans have formed opinions on various programs, regardless of whether there's a fan of them around.

I thought Apogee would be a game changer for how we're perceived, because of the teams we brought in and the way we played with a bigger financial emphasis on football.

It would be interesting to take a survey where random college football fans are asked to share what they know about UNT. I wonder how much that would cost on Amazon Mechanical Turk.

[MeanGreenTexan]

You post here too, yet you're claiming expertise on how much non-UNT fans care (or don't care) about this program.

Maybe you should just accept that this is a difference of opinion.

Admittedly.   But I'm not over here citing my interactions with people about how the Portland State loss affects us.

Quick, without Googling, tell me about how Utah State is doing.   Unless you have some kind of tie to them, you probably dont know.   If you don't have a tie to them, yet you still know, kudos to you, I'm not nearly the college football fan you are.   Did you know they're responsible for Boise St's lone conference loss?  They hung tight with Utah?  They got embarrassed by San Diego St?

If you're like me, or most college football fans that are not fans of UTSt, or know someone who is, you only have a perception of UTSt based on their history.   North Texas is in the same boat regardless of who we beat or lose to.  The perception of us is that we are a terrible football team, based on our history.   The perception can only change with consistent winning and some kind of big bowl win.  If we could put that together, no one will remember the Portland St loss, and when it comes up as some kind of interesting factoid, people will say, "Really?  That happened to North Texas?", because the perception will be changed to NT being a 'winner'.

[southsideguy]

What, exactly, has UNT done to inspire the residents of Denton to come out in droves for football games?

Large state universities typically rely on alumni to fill their stadiums on game day. The only reason you are bitching about Denton residents is because alumni do not care to go to games in significant numbers.

 

I disagree with you, i have lived in other cities with universities and people who never attended the school come to the games and own season tickets.  You need some local help to fill a stadium.  Yes the UNT alumni should show up for the games but they think it is to far to drive to denton for game.  I don't get why they are not here.  I don't care win or lose I go to the game.  I enjoy talking to the people around me and we have a very good band.

[untjim1995]

You guys are really ignoring the bigger problem of apathy regarding North Texas sports.   I don't think people will remember that loss any more than people will remember the HoD Bowl win.

Newsflash:  Outside of the people who post on this very forum, and maybe a couple-hundred other people, no one really cares about NT athletics.

I'll tell you who took notice of the PSU catastrophic crushing and will use it all day long for years to come--other coaches at G5s around here that we recruit against.  When we are recruiting a kid that has interest from SMU, Tulsa, Rice, UTSA, and La Tech, the absolute easiest thing to talk about is that our program sucks so bad we set a record for worst loss EVER by a FBS team against a FCS team. Then tell the recruit, his parents, and his high school coach that UNT's overall record in the last 10 years is truly pathetic, with an overall record of probably 34-87 at the end of the year, which covers 4 different head coaches and countless QBs. Our school might not be where we want to be, but we damn sure our farther along than UNT.

Recruiting here is about to be harder than it has ever been since Dickey was recruiting kids to come here to play at Fouts in the SBC in 2006. That PSU loss will be the easiest thing to sell to recruits that receive any interest from UNT going forward for this year and probably the next year or two after this. Because it perfectly encapsulates where this program has been allowed to fall to and to be continually led by an inept athletic director, all because the BOR won't dare hurt any chance that anyone in the UNT 17 will pull back their support for RV, I mean UNT...

[MeanGreenTexan]

I'll tell you who took notice of the PSU catastrophic crushing and will use it all day long for years to come--other coaches at G5s around here that we recruit against.  When we are recruiting a kid that has interest from SMU, Tulsa, Rice, UTSA, and La Tech, the absolute easiest thing to talk about is that our program sucks so bad we set a record for worst loss EVER by a FBS team against a FCS team. Then tell the recruit, his parents, and his high school coach that UNT's overall record in the last 10 years is truly pathetic, with an overall record of probably 34-87 at the end of the year, which covers 4 different head coaches and countless QBs. Our school might not be where we want to be, but we damn sure our farther along than UNT.

Recruiting here is about to be harder than it has ever been since Dickey was recruiting kids to come here to play at Fouts in the SBC in 2006. That PSU loss will be the easiest thing to sell to recruits that receive any interest from UNT going forward for this year and probably the next year or two after this. Because it perfectly encapsulates where this program has been allowed to fall to and to be continually led by an inept athletic director, all because the BOR won't dare hurt any chance that anyone in the UNT 17 will pull back their support for RV, I mean UNT...

Our new coach's answer to that recruit's concerns: "That was last year.  I'm here now, and we're going to win...  Here's how:<explain new strategy tailored to the strengths of the recruit you're talking to>.  You can help us."   Done.

[UNT90]

...Because they know you're an ardent supporter of UNT.   If you weren't there, do you think NT football would be discussed at all?

If no Texas A&M fan present, do you think A&M football gets discussed this year? No.

The fact that OTHER PEOPLE COMMENT ABOUT PORTLAND ST. means they KNOW about it. It isn't going to be a point of discussion when talking about the BCS playoffs.

Jeez.

Ive actually gotten "North Texas, didn't y'all get smoked by that D2 team?" I didn't bother to correct that it was an FCS because, really, what's the point? 

Edited November 11, 2015 by UNT90

[untjim1995]

Our new coach's answer to that recruit's concerns: "That was last year.  I'm here now, and we're going to win...  Here's how:<explain new strategy tailored to the strengths of the recruit you're talking to>.  You can help us."   Done.

Then the other team's coach asks the recruit, "Do you think Dan McCarney, Todd Dodge, and Darrell Dickey ever said the same thing to a player like yourself in the last 10 years?" Player: Yeah, probably...Other coach: "We don't schedule FCS games that we can lose by 59 points--nor does anyone else that I'm aware of...except, of course, for one school, who has lined up the murderers row of Incarnate Word, ACU, Lamar, and Bethune-Cookman in the years to come...it would sure suck to play on a team that lost to anyone like that by even one point, much less 59. Here at ______, we need you for our team right now. We will play teams you have heard of in OOC, many times at home in the future and I know you will help us to compete against (insert P5 team of your choice)..."

All I'm saying is that the recruiting game is stacked against the new coach because of this season's ridiculousness. The new coach will have playing time immediately to offer--and he better hope that someone who can be actually developed into his scheme will come aboard. Because if all things are equal, being dead-ass last in FBS won't really attract many people your way. Its been obviously difficult to get kids with talent to come here with much easier situations in the past 5 years to recruit them to Denton (new stadium, new coach, and new conference). To think its going to get magically easier now that we are below the ground right now to get decent recruits here seems pretty homer-ish to me. Its extremely conceivable that next year's record will be in the same 2 or less win vicinity that this year's has been. SMU's blueprint is what we will most likely follow with the next hire and endure in his first season here...

[MeanGreenTexan]

If no Texas A&M fan present, do you think A&M football gets discussed this year? No.

The fact that OTHER PEOPLE COMMENT ABOUT PORTLAND ST. means they KNOW about it. It isn't going to be a point of discussion when talking about the BCS playoffs.

Jeez.

Ive actually gotten "North Texas, didn't y'all get smoked by that D2 team?" I didn't bother to correct that it was an FCS because, really, what's the point? 

Probably. This is Texas.   Big12 and SEC talk, because those are storied programs with tons of followers who demand coverage by media.  The Longhorns, Aggies, Raiders & Sooners are going to be all the talk of casual fans around here.

 

This whole conversation has devolved from me trying to point out rcade's comments: 
"News of the worst FBS loss to an FCS school was reported all over the college football world. Fans of other schools will be hanging that albatross around our necks for a long time."  -  I'm saying it won't if we can start winning consistently, and it doesn't matter who we're beating, just ask  Boise St.
&
"If someone meets an alumnus of Appalachian State and they start talking about football, the Michigan win is going to come up quick.
That's one reason why the Portland State debacle matters. It reinforces our reputation as a terrible football program in the eyes of a lot of people."  -  This is apples:oranges.   At the time, App St was on Portland St's level.  We aren't on Michigan's level.

[UNT90]

Probably. This is Texas.   Big12 and SEC talk, because those are storied programs with tons of followers who demand coverage by media.  The Longhorns, Aggies, Raiders & Sooners are going to be all the talk of casual fans around here.

 

This whole conversation has devolved from me trying to point out rcade's comments: 
"News of the worst FBS loss to an FCS school was reported all over the college football world. Fans of other schools will be hanging that albatross around our necks for a long time."  -  I'm saying it won't if we can start winning consistently, and it doesn't matter who we're beating, just ask  Boise St.
&
"If someone meets an alumnus of Appalachian State and they start talking about football, the Michigan win is going to come up quick.
That's one reason why the Portland State debacle matters. It reinforces our reputation as a terrible football program in the eyes of a lot of people."  -  This is apples:oranges.   At the time, App St was on Portland St's level.  We aren't on Michigan's level.

I'll agree with you. IF we start winning. Big if. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

I'll agree with you. IF we start winning. Big if. 

HUGE if.  no doubt.   We're in the best position to win that we've ever been, we just need to capitalize.

[UNT90]

HUGE if.  no doubt.   We're in the best position to win that we've ever been, we just need to capitalize.

If RV wasn't involved in this search, you may be right. He is. You aren't. 

[Ben Gooding]

Admittedly.   But I'm not over here citing my interactions with people about how the Portland State loss affects us.

Quick, without Googling, tell me about how Utah State is doing.   Unless you have some kind of tie to them, you probably dont know.   If you don't have a tie to them, yet you still know, kudos to you, I'm not nearly the college football fan you are.   Did you know they're responsible for Boise St's lone conference loss?  They hung tight with Utah?  They got embarrassed by San Diego St?

If you're like me, or most college football fans that are not fans of UTSt, or know someone who is, you only have a perception of UTSt based on their history.   North Texas is in the same boat regardless of who we beat or lose to.  The perception of us is that we are a terrible football team, based on our history.   The perception can only change with consistent winning and some kind of big bowl win.  If we could put that together, no one will remember the Portland St loss, and when it comes up as some kind of interesting factoid, people will say, "Really?  That happened to North Texas?", because the perception will be changed to NT being a 'winner'.

I'll play...Utah St beat the crap of out Boise earlier this year because Boise turned the ball over like 5 times in the first half. That win for Utah State made ESPN and had about 2 or 3 minute highlighted segment because of how bad they WON. North Texas received about a 15 second shout out for losing so bad to PSU, also on ESPN. 

North Texas is an over .500 program in their full history. In the last 10 years we have been bad. We live in a give it to me right now World. The "right now" for North Texas is really bad. That can easily change the other direction in a matter of 2 seasons with above .500 record in both and a notable win in one of the years. What propels a program past that is being consistent. That is an unknown.  

[untjim1995]

HUGE if.  no doubt.   We're in the best position to win that we've ever been, we just need to capitalize.

Its funny, I feel like we are in the exact opposite place. of where we were in 2011 when McCarney got hired and APogee was opening, as well as in 2014 after winning the HoD Bowl and having the coach get an extension for winning 9 games in 2013.

I feel like our position to win is as bad here as it was when Dickey left, talent-wise and reputation-wise. I know, Fouts and SBC make it look much worse, but Dodge came here with a strong reputation as a great offensive mind--only to find out that there was not much here to work with and quickly began changing out players. He failed miserably because of the high school coaches he was allowed to bring aboard because of salary limitations and ego. I'm afraid that the next hire will endure something very similar next season. I just don't see enough talent here to change that, especially if we go to an up-tempo offensive scheme with a roster full of guys built for 1970 Big Ten play. The poor recruiting class rankings from previous years are very telling to all of us now, which is how its almost miraculous at this point that we beat anybody this year.

 

[untjim1995]

In the last 10 years we have been bad. We live in a give it to me right now World. The "right now" for North Texas is really bad. That can easily change the other direction in a matter of 2 seasons with above .500 record in both and a notable win in one of the years. What propels a program past that is being consistent. That is an unknown.  

All I know is that since 1995, we have had 21 seasons now to compete at this level. We are a whopping 84-163, probably headed to 84-167. We did have three seasons, from 2002-2004 where we had winning seasons and won conference championships, even beating teams like Cincinnati and Baylor, as well as close losses to TCU, Arizona, and Memphis during that timeframe. We even gave teams like Texas, Oklahoma, and Colorado games to fight thru for 3 or 4 quarters. And it didn't propel else anywhere but to the basic equal, record-wise and talent-wise, to where we are today. Texas HS coaches, recruits, and their parents only know us as the absolute laughingstock of Texas FBS football. No NFL draftees, no team that finished ranked, and no media coverage in our own state, so little actually that many people think we are on the level of schools like SFA and SHSU or are still called North Texas State...

This is a fanbase that has witnessed 4 winning seasons in those 21 years, with two teams going 9-4 in 2003 and 2013, as well as two bowl champions in 2002 and 2013. We also saw two teams lose their bowl games (2001 and 2004). Those 5 teams combined to go 40-26. Two other teams, in 1996 and in 2011, won 5 games. That means two-thirds  of the teams we have rolled out have won 4 games or less in those 21 years. Those other 14 teams have combined to go 34-123, an average season of 2 wins and 9 losses. That covers 5 head coaches, but the bigger issue is that this entirety has covered all of 2 ADs, including the current one for the last 15 years, and all of 2 university chancellors. IOW, two chancellors who didn't and haven't asked for anything better out of the university's football program, giving the BOR the message that it doesn't matter, which has clearly resonated with them.

We have been unbelievably bad for the better part of 21 years, including today, where we are the worst that the FBS world can offer as a program right now. How anyone can look at the current situation, from the chancellor and BOR, to the AD and the UNT 17 threatening to leave if their buddy even got moved from being the AD, and combine it all with our current standing in the Texas HS recruiting picture and all of that losing that has been condoned and accepted, to believe this thing can turn around anytime soon seems incredibly optimistic to a lot of us. Maybe our next coach is going to be Hayden Fry 2.0 or the next Art Briles, but both our history and our current "leadership" suggests we are going to find another Dan McCarney/Darrell Dickey/Matt Simon, someone who will average about 4 wins a year in his tenure here.

[Ben Gooding]

All I know is that since 1995, we have had 21 seasons now to compete at this level. We are a whopping 84-163, probably headed to 84-167. We did have three seasons, from 2002-2004 where we had winning seasons and won conference championships, even beating teams like Cincinnati and Baylor, as well as close losses to TCU, Arizona, and Memphis during that timeframe. We even gave teams like Texas, Oklahoma, and Colorado games to fight thru for 3 or 4 quarters. And it didn't propel else anywhere but to the basic equal, record-wise and talent-wise, to where we are today. Texas HS coaches, recruits, and their parents only know us as the absolute laughingstock of Texas FBS football. No NFL draftees, no team that finished ranked, and no media coverage in our own state, so little actually that many people think we are on the level of schools like SFA and SHSU or are still called North Texas State...

This is a fanbase that has witnessed 4 winning seasons in those 21 years, with two teams going 9-4 in 2003 and 2013, as well as two bowl champions in 2002 and 2013. We also saw two teams lose their bowl games (2001 and 2004). Those 5 teams combined to go 40-26. Two other teams, in 1996 and in 2011, won 5 games. That means two-thirds  of the teams we have rolled out have won 4 games or less in those 21 years. Those other 14 teams have combined to go 34-123, an average season of 2 wins and 9 losses. That covers 5 head coaches, but the bigger issue is that this entirety has covered all of 2 ADs, including the current one for the last 15 years, and all of 2 university chancellors. IOW, two chancellors who didn't and haven't asked for anything better out of the university's football program, giving the BOR the message that it doesn't matter, which has clearly resonated with them.

We have been unbelievably bad for the better part of 21 years, including today, where we are the worst that the FBS world can offer as a program right now. How anyone can look at the current situation, from the chancellor and BOR, to the AD and the UNT 17 threatening to leave if their buddy even got moved from being the AD, and combine it all with our current standing in the Texas HS recruiting picture and all of that losing that has been condoned and accepted, to believe this thing can turn around anytime soon seems incredibly optimistic to a lot of us. Maybe our next coach is going to be Hayden Fry 2.0 or the next Art Briles, but both our history and our current "leadership" suggests we are going to find another Dan McCarney/Darrell Dickey/Matt Simon, someone who will average about 4 wins a year in his tenure here.

So, what can we do? What can you, me, and anyone else on this board do to ensure that action is taken? We understand the history. It's real and stares us in the face on a regular basis. We need to start putting action into our empty words. I am not sure what to do, but I am willing to do just about anything within the limitations of the law. So...

[EagleMBA]

Saw my orthopedist this afternoon for annual X-rays and checkup on prosthetic hips. He greeted me wearing an Aggie shirt and had an intern with him wearing a UNT Health ID badge. I told the intern "Go Mean Green" and gave him the talons. The Aggie doc smiled and said "Who are you going to get for your new coach? I've got one I'd like to sell you." We laughed because he was aware of the Craig's List ad for Spavital. The UNT intern seemed clueless...like we were speaking esperanto.

[untjim1995]

So, what can we do? What can you, me, and anyone else on this board do to ensure that action is taken? We understand the history. It's real and stares us in the face on a regular basis. We need to start putting action into our empty words. I am not sure what to do, but I am willing to do just about anything within the limitations of the law. So...

The BOR makes is perfectly clear what your choices are: accept it or go away. Either way, they do not care one bit...

Saw my orthopedist this afternoon for annual X-rays and checkup on prosthetic hips. He greeted me wearing an Aggie shirt and had an intern with him wearing a UNT Health ID badge. I told the intern "Go Mean Green" and gave him the talons. The Aggie doc smiled and said "Who are you going to get for your new coach? I've got one I'd like to sell you." We laughed because he was aware of the Craig's List ad for Spavital. The UNT intern seemed clueless...like we were speaking esperanto.

shocker on the clueless UNT student/alum

[NT91]

1-AA