The fan effect of late season paycheck games in a bad season

[Harry]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the birds aren't chirping in here as usual.  It's dark and very quiet this week, almost somber.  Even in a one win season, there was excitement and some anticipation last week heading into a conference game against La. Tech, even though we were not supposed to win.

Now we play a very good Tennessee program on the road for another paycheck.  I realize that to fund the program playing these types of games is required although I would hope for just one a season not two.

The point of this post is the effects of this game on the alumni and fans.  Honestly, I have no interest in this game or these types of games.  Part of this is how far our program has fallen on hard times this season and in general.   I wish the powers that be would look at this week and this game and the effect it has on the morale of the program as they start the process of rebuilding this program. 

I know UNT90 and others will jump on and blame RV for this, but how about the rest of the University hierarchy?  Should they not bare some of the responsibility?  They don't seem to complain when the checks for these games are being cashed.  Could they do some things in terms of student fees and funding that could prevent us from having to play these types of games? Absolutely.  And it needs to be part of the conversation in this new coaching hire.

It is a good thing that we appear to be stepping up our compensation package for the next coaching staff.  It is an extremely important hire.   However, a coaching staff can only do so much.  If the administration is requiring us to play two body bag games a year to adequately fund this thing then they need to understand the ramifications of that.  It really hurts morale.

 

[MGNation92]

It's incredible to me the amount of P5 schools we have in the state/neighboring states that are only a few hours drive away

1. OK State
2. OU
3. Texas A&M
4. TU
5. Texas Tech
6. LSU
7. Houston(Not a P5, but still a viable option)

And yet we cannot schedule a single home and home with any of these? Not only would it bring more people to apogee, it would cut down on travel costs. There is no reason we shouldn't be having a home and home with one of these schools at least every couple of seasons. I don't want to fly to Alabama and watch them hang 80 on us in Tuscaloosa, and I don't think there are many others that would either. How NutsaCK got a home and home with both Arizona and OK State is beyond me. Their AD is doing scheduling right, while we continue to take it up the pooper twice a year for a paycheck.

[oldguystudent]

I don't know if it's the second paycheck game, or if it's that the season is a complete and utter failure, or a combination of both.  The fan base is either vitriolically pissed off to the point that nothing short of Jesus Christ coming down and running the program will make them happy, or they are numb because they can't take anymore pain.  (Or they are blindly supportive and wonder why all of us don't simply throw 80% of our gross income at the problem)

I'm curious if you're able to look up user trends that are comparable between today and this time in 2008.  I think it might be worse.  I don't think we had a sub 10,000 attendance game until the last game of the year on Thanksgiving weekend that year.  This year, that trend began in the middle of October, and I surely don't see 10,000 people coming to the last home game of the year to watch the worst program in the country on the weekend of Thanksgiving against perhaps the 10th worst team in the country.  

There's just such little incentive for anybody to participate anymore unless they want to bash RV into the six foot whole full of multiple dead horses, or they want to bash their other fans for not doing it right, not giving enough, not caring enough, or generally not being as good as them.

 

Conclusion:  Well what the hell do you expect?

[SilverEagle]

"It is a good thing that we appear to be stepping up our compensation package for the next coaching staff.  It is an extremely important hire.   However, a coaching staff can only do so much.  If the administration is requiring us to play two body bag games a year to adequately fund this thing then they need to understand the ramifications of that.  It really hurts morale."

I know I'm a broken record ( what would be the modern version of that term?) about this but you can't just throw money at our problems. If I had to choose between a coach that was mostly driven by money or mostly driven by ego, I would choose ego every time. Yes, I now that people with big egos like money, but I'm interested in the guy who is a bit more interested in making his mark in the world. Someone with a big enough ego to say "I know what needs to be done to turn things around at North Texas and by God I'll do it if it kills me.....and my staff as well". 

Harry, you really hit it right on the head when you said "a coaching staff can only do so much".  Hello RV!  and hello to all the people in promotions. If any of you have a punch-the-clock-8-5-mentality.....you need to be gone.

Everyone and I mean EVERYONE who is in charge of promotions, GMGC, Spirit organizations (including and especially the GB) and anything to do with game day activities/atmosphere needs to either step it up or go away.

[UNTFan23]

It's incredible to me the amount of P5 schools we have in the state/neighboring states that are only a few hours drive away

1. OK State
2. OU
3. Texas A&M
4. TU
5. Texas Tech
6. LSU
7. Houston(Not a P5, but still a viable option)

And yet we cannot schedule a single home and home with any of these? Not only would it bring more people to apogee, it would cut down on travel costs. There is no reason we shouldn't be having a home and home with one of these schools at least every couple of seasons. I don't want to fly to Alabama and watch them hang 80 on us in Tuscaloosa, and I don't think there are many others that would either. How NutsaCK got a home and home with both Arizona and OK State is beyond me. Their AD is doing scheduling right, while we continue to take it up the pooper twice a year for a paycheck.

The Big 12 only has 3 available OOC slots. Given how important SOS is now to the Playoff committee, our ability to schedule some regional P5 schools is going to become more difficult.

You're kidding yourself if schools like OU, aTm, Texas, and LSU will ever step foot on our campus.  Those schools would actually lose money if they attempted to fill their schedule with home and home games with lower level G5 schools.  About the only way we'd be lucky enough to get a top shelf P5 schools is to play the game in Jerry World.

[Cerebus]

I'm curious if you're able to look up user trends that are comparable between today and this time in 2008.  I think it might be worse.  

I would love to see the gmg.com webstats for those two periods.  I can't remember the last time the board was this dead.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that in the past we lacked so much basic infrastructure.  Coaching pay was awful, Fouts was first used to host Sumerian Fertility rituals, we didn't have a decent weight room or a meeting room big enough for the entire team to meet at the same time, and we where in the SBC.  There were so many excuses as to why we didn't win.  It was ok to think if we could just improve those things, we'll start to win.

Now, we pay near the top of CUSA (we'll be the highest paid coaching staff in CUSA if you believe the numbers rumored), Apogee is beautiful, or facilities are the top of CUSA.   There is no reason football and basketball shouldn't be dominant programs in CUSA.  Instead the team we fielded against Portland State was the worst display of football I have ever seen at North Texas.  Any of Simon's or Dickey's or Dodge's teams would have throttled them.

HOW THE HELL ARE WE THIS AWFUL WHEN WE HAVE POURED MORE RESOURCES INTO THE PROGRAM THAN ANY OTHER CUSA TEAM IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD?!

There's just such little incentive for anybody to participate anymore unless they want to bash RV into the six foot whole full of multiple dead horses, or they want to bash their other fans for not doing it right, not giving enough, not caring enough, or generally not being as good as them.

Well at least we know two people will be posting.

[UNTcrazy727]

It's incredible to me the amount of P5 schools we have in the state/neighboring states that are only a few hours drive away

1. OK State
2. OU
3. Texas A&M
4. TU
5. Texas Tech
6. LSU
7. Houston(Not a P5, but still a viable option)

And yet we cannot schedule a single home and home with any of these? Not only would it bring more people to apogee, it would cut down on travel costs. There is no reason we shouldn't be having a home and home with one of these schools at least every couple of seasons. I don't want to fly to Alabama and watch them hang 80 on us in Tuscaloosa, and I don't think there are many others that would either. How NutsaCK got a home and home with both Arizona and OK State is beyond me. Their AD is doing scheduling right, while we continue to take it up the pooper twice a year for a paycheck.

I'm sorry, but the only schools on your list I would want to play in Apogee are Tech and Houston (maybe Texas since they're down right now). You're looking at an A$$ kicking with any of the other teams.

I would love to see the gmg.com webstats for those two periods.  I can't remember the last time the board was this dead.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that in the past we lacked so much basic infrastructure.  Coaching pay was awful, Fouts was first used to host Sumerian Fertility rituals, we didn't have a decent weight room or a meeting room big enough for the entire team to meet at the same time, and we where in the SBC.  There were so many excuses as to why we didn't win.  It was ok to think if we could just improve those things, we'll start to win.

Now, we pay near the top of CUSA (we'll be the highest paid coaching staff in CUSA if you believe the numbers rumored), Apogee is beautiful, or facilities are the top of CUSA.   There is no reason football and basketball shouldn't be dominant programs in CUSA.  Instead the team we fielded against Portland State was the worst display of football I have ever seen at North Texas.  Any of Simon's or Dickey's or Dodge's teams would have throttled them.

HOW THE HELL ARE WE THIS AWFUL WHEN WE HAVE POURED MORE RESOURCES INTO THE PROGRAM THAN ANY OTHER CUSA TEAM IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD?!

Well at least we know two people will be posting.

Besides Apogee, what facilities do we have that are the top of C-USA?? Our locker rooms are a joke and our weight room is nothing to brag about.

[UNT90]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the birds aren't chirping in here as usual.  It's dark and very quiet this week, almost somber.  Even in a one win season, there was excitement and some anticipation last week heading into a conference game against La. Tech, even though we were not supposed to win.

Now we play a very good Tennessee program on the road for another paycheck.  I realize that to fund the program playing these types of games is required although I would hope for just one a season not two.

The point of this post is the effects of this game on the alumni and fans.  Honestly, I have no interest in this game or these types of games.  Part of this is how far our program has fallen on hard times this season and in general.   I wish the powers that be would look at this week and this game and the effect it has on the morale of the program as they start the process of rebuilding this program. 

I know UNT90 and others will jump on and blame RV for this, but how about the rest of the University hierarchy?  Should they not bare some of the responsibility?  They don't seem to complain when the checks for these games are being cashed.  Could they do some things in terms of student fees and funding that could prevent us from having to play these types of games? Absolutely.  And it needs to be part of the conversation in this new coaching hire.

It is a good thing that we appear to be stepping up our compensation package for the next coaching staff.  It is an extremely important hire.   However, a coaching staff can only do so much.  If the administration is requiring us to play two body bag games a year to adequately fund this thing then they need to understand the ramifications of that.  It really hurts morale.

 

Look, it's RV's JOB to get these things from the university, to increase donations and attendance, to make sure we don't have to play these games.

Harry, every remedy that you call for in your post is the direct responsibility of the athletic director to get done. Every single one.

Nothing will ever be different here with this guy running the show. He will say anything to deflect blame. He doesn't care if blame falls on the undeserving for one of his unfulfilled responsibilities. That's not a leader. That's a terribly ineffective manager.

And we have seen the results throughout this organization (ticket office, anybody?) 

Nothing changes as long as RV is AD. Write it in stone.

[Cerebus]

Besides Apogee, what facilities do we have that are the top of C-USA?? Our locker rooms are a joke and our weight room is nothing to brag about.

I'm not saying they B12 level, or perfect, but all in all our facilities are much closer to the top of CUSA than the bottom.  Just having a situation where a football player has their dorm, football specific cafeteria meal plan, weight room, practice fields, film rooms, tutoring, and stadium within 200 yds of each other is pretty impressive.

The weight room is for sure one area we need to improve.  

[greenjoe]

It's now called an 8 track, Silver.

 

I've said this before-We don't charge enough for a "sure win" game for P-5 programs.

 

Tennessee is very likely to become bowl eligible with a win over North Texas.  But if not, they will probably beat Missouri ( which needs 2 wins to go bowling) and Vanderbilt (a team that needs 3 wins to go post season).  But, if Mizzou and Vandy were to beat Tennessee, they'd pay zillions to have a 6th win and there is no more sure win than North Texas. 

 

I have no way of knowing, but I bet we're getting $8-900K for our trip to Knoxville.  They would pay more.  They'd pay $2mil.  And if they didn't, let's play Krum High School at Apogee. 

 

If we have to play the "we'll do anything for money" role, let's at least soak a program that can and will pay.

 

GO MEAN GREEN

Edited November 10, 2015 by greenjoe

[untjim1995]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the birds aren't chirping in here as usual.  It's dark and very quiet this week, almost somber.  Even in a one win season, there was excitement and some anticipation last week heading into a conference game against La. Tech, even though we were not supposed to win.

Now we play a very good Tennessee program on the road for another paycheck.  I realize that to fund the program playing these types of games is required although I would hope for just one a season not two.

The point of this post is the effects of this game on the alumni and fans.  Honestly, I have no interest in this game or these types of games.  Part of this is how far our program has fallen on hard times this season and in general.   I wish the powers that be would look at this week and this game and the effect it has on the morale of the program as they start the process of rebuilding this program. 

I know UNT90 and others will jump on and blame RV for this, but how about the rest of the University hierarchy?  Should they not bare some of the responsibility?  They don't seem to complain when the checks for these games are being cashed.  Could they do some things in terms of student fees and funding that could prevent us from having to play these types of games? Absolutely.  And it needs to be part of the conversation in this new coaching hire.

It is a good thing that we appear to be stepping up our compensation package for the next coaching staff.  It is an extremely important hire.   However, a coaching staff can only do so much.  If the administration is requiring us to play two body bag games a year to adequately fund this thing then they need to understand the ramifications of that.  It really hurts morale.

 

I think you'll see that I have many times posted that RV is merely a symptom of the bigger issue--that the BOR doesn't care about winning at revenue sports, just staying within budget. Staying within the budget requires revenue--and the easiest way to do it into today's world is to schedule money games at P5 giants. And RV does that perfectly--he keeps us in budget because he now has 17 boosters that will pay for atrocious contract mistakes he made. The BOR and administration reflect what the UNT Family demands--apathy or downright hate of UNT Sports. They don't care about how losing bothers the 2% that care anything about our program--they just care about the known $$$ getting into the coffers. Known costs/revenues ALWAYS trumps opportunity costs/revenues at UNT from a budgetary standpoint.

Its my opinion that until that mindset changes at the BOR and administrative level, thru actual actions, not words, that the apathy that kills this place will continue to dominate. The biggest problem is how much those BOR and administrative figures fear athletics getting more attention. They fear the backlash from the overwhelming number of the UNT Family that wants nothing to do with this--that their jobs would clearly be in jeopardy if they rocked the boat. And they fear that by changing the view toward winning in revenue sports, versus ISD'ing it like we always have, the primary window of the university will forever be changed, just because of the $$$ and people who will influence the university.

Unfortunately for guys like me, sports matters a lot more than it should, but it just does. I love watching college football and college basketball, as well as now enjoying college baseball, too. Then I look at how universities that are successful at these sports run their programs and compare it to ours. And it becomes very clear that we don't want to try to do anything that makes us a consistent winner. We just want to offer the teams as an "experience" for college students. That's just the way it is.

[Graddean]

Silver Eagle is right about money over ego.  There is considerable evidence that high achievers are driven more by internal motivators.  This doesn't mean they will turn down money, but other factors are more important

[MeanGreenDan]

I've never been so indifferent on games and their outcomes at this point in the season.  I'll seemingly be unable to watch or listen to the remaining games this year, as I was the LA Tech game, and while in the past I would have scrambled to sneak around with an earbud in, or ducked into a sports bar to watch a quarter, I am now very much at peace with simply "finding out later".

I hate it, but it's true.

[southsideguy]

how about kansas, iowa state,  UNM, CSU, UNLV,  schools that we can play with that have names people have heard of.

[edcollopy]

I've ruined so many Saturdays with a piss poor attitude after we lose.  For the first time in 20 years, I just laugh and shake my head at how inept we are.  With every horrible and inaccurate D. Smith pass, or every dropped pass, I find myself just telling my wife what an embarrassment we are.  Never thought I'd see the day I stopped caring so much.  I can't even watch looking for a silver lining or rebuilding hope.

[EagleMBA]

Silver Eagle is right about money over ego.  There is considerable evidence that high achievers are driven more by internal motivators.  This doesn't mean they will turn down money, but other factors are more important

Here is what Graddean is referencing, in a nutshell. One of the first things I learned as an undergrad in the Management program and very relevant to real life:

"Need for achievement (N-Ach) refers to an individual's desire for significant accomplishment, mastering of skills, control, or high standards. The term was first used by Henry Murray^[1] and associated with a range of actions. These include: "intense, prolonged and repeated efforts to accomplish something difficult. To work with singleness of purpose towards a high and distant goal. To have the determination to win". The concept of N-Ach was subsequently popularised by the psychologist David McClelland.^[2]

This personality trait is characterized by an enduring and consistent concern with setting and meeting high standards of achievement. This need is influenced by internal drive for action (intrinsic motivation), and the pressure exerted by the expectations of others (extrinsic motivation). Measured with the Thematic Apperception Test (TAT), need for achievement motivates an individual to succeed in competition, and to excel in activities important to him or her.^[3]

Need for Achievement is related to the difficulty of tasks people choose to undertake. Those with low N-Ach may choose very easy tasks, in order to minimise risk of failure, or highly difficult tasks, such that a failure would not be embarrassing. Those with high N-Ach tend to choose moderately difficult tasks, feeling that they are challenging, but within reach.

People high in N-Ach are characterised by a tendency to seek challenges and a high degree of independence. Their most satisfying reward is the recognition of their achievements. Sources of high N-Ach include:

1. Parents who encouraged independence in childhood
2. Praise and rewards for success
3. Association of achievement with positive feelings
4. Association of achievement with one's own competence and effort, not luck
5. A desire to be effective or challenged
6. Intrapersonal Strength
7. Desirability
8. Feasibility
9. Goal Setting Abilities

Edited November 10, 2015 by EagleMBA

[southsideguy]

I don't feel that way, i am disappointed in what is on the field but I love going to games at apogee.   My expectation are now low so not overly depressed after the games.  I think one problem we have we can't get that quarterback here is because we are a run first team (we can get running backs) and passers want to go somewhere they can throw the ball.  Just a theory on why we can't get a decent qb here.  I thinks someone just needs to work with smith on his touch not every pass has to be flame. Not all the qb are going to start for TCU, baylor, texas, texas tech we need to get to those guys here.  They can start or sit on the bench.

[untjim1995]

I don't feel that way, i am disappointed in what is on the field but I love going to games at apogee.   My expectation are now low so not overly depressed after the games.  I think one problem we have we can't get that quarterback here is because we are a run first team (we can get running backs) and passers want to go somewhere they can throw the ball.  Just a theory on why we can't get a decent qb here.  I thinks someone just needs to work with smith on his touch not every pass has to be flame. Not all the qb are going to start for TCU, baylor, texas, texas tech we need to get to those guys here.  They can start or sit on the bench.

There's just one problem with having had that run-oriented offense--95% of Texas High schools that FBS recruits come from all run some version of the spread. Their QBs throw the ball most of the time. There's a reason we had to go the JUCO route to get a QB to come here the last two years. No Texas HS QB that is any good will even consider coming here with the offense Mac ran.

That will change now, most likely, with the next coach running some modicum of a modern offense--and its why I don't believe our starting QB in 2016 is on the roster right now.

[FirefightnRick]

 

I know UNT90 and others will jump on and blame RV for this, but how about the rest of the University hierarchy? Should they not bare some of the responsibility? They don't seem to complain when the checks for these games are being cashed.  Could they do some things in terms of student fees and funding that could prevent us from having to play these types of games? Absolutely.  And it needs to be part of the conversation in this new coaching hire.

 

Really?  Wow!!!!

 

 

Rick

[untjim1995]

Really?  Wow!!!!

 

 

Rick

I laughed...

[Harry]

I laughed...

You can laugh, but isn't it a sad statement when people post their true thoughts on here and it is ridiculed? Seems to me people are more concerned about being "right first" than having a meaningful dialogue about the situation we find ourselves in today...

[oldguystudent]

You can laugh, but isn't it a sad statement when people post their true thoughts on here and it is ridiculed? Seems to me people are more concerned about being "right first" than having a meaningful dialogue about the situation we find ourselves in today...

OK.  I'll have meaningful dialogue.  If throwing money at the problem is the solution (hint: I don't think that's the end all be all), then I really, really, really don't think that unilaterally imposing that responsibility on the students is the answer.  It's tiring to see that thrown around time and time again when I look in the program and see so little money from so few alumni.  Thing is, no matter how much money we throw at it, the university and athletic department will find a way to spend it that will still require us to go whoring every year.  Kinda parallels the meteoric rise in tuition over the past couple decades.  Has the quality of a college education increased with the cost over that time?  I mean, the students are bearing the brunt of that, and what are they getting for it that we didn't 25 years ago?

[untjim1995]

You can laugh, but isn't it a sad statement when people post their true thoughts on here and it is ridiculed? Seems to me people are more concerned about being "right first" than having a meaningful dialogue about the situation we find ourselves in today...

Harry, your questions are exactly what need to be answered, no matter when they are being asked. I just think its telling that those questions are having to still even be asked by any of us in 2015. That's why I laughed...

[oldguystudent]

Before I spend any more money.  Before anybody spends any more money.  And especially before we soak the students for another dime, SHOW ME THE VISION!

[Aldo]

I can see increasing the student fee to the maximum allowable before a vote, but we are misplacing the inability to fundraise (through MGC membership, season ticket and general ticket sales) onto the students.

We're talking about raising an extra 750K-1.5 million per year. That's the athletic department's responsibility, and wouldn't even be tops in CUSA. *But* it would entail doubling what they are fundraising.