U guys must love the Benford Hire?

[MeanMag]

So unless you are former Division 1 college head coach, I don't think you are an authority to refute my opinion.

You were a Division 1 college head coach?

[Mike Jackson]

Are we all going to skip over this like Bill Snyder isn't all-everything at KState? sorry, I couldn't get past this statement. You could certainly find a much better example to prove your point.

Good point.  I think is possible for a first time head coach at the FBS level to be successful here.  However I believe will be extremely difficult.  I hate to say it but it is true.  The year UTSA started practicing to play FBS football it was a better job than UNT is today at the very moment.  That doesn't mean that UNT still doesn't have more potential than UTSA.   But right now as the new UNT head coach you are starting off at negative two (-2).   At UTSA you were at least starting at zero.  At zero people don't have expectations and can get excited about the new unknown they never had before.  There is a lot negative momentum here now and a coach will need to that ASAP just to finish his first contract.  Hell if UNT sat out of the 2016 season FBS season because of some tragedy (God Forbid).  I would more excited about the 2017 FBS season.  I just think that is human nature.  Absence makes the heart grow founder.

[TheTastyGreek]

Okay, so... First things first: We used to have a moderator around here (JohnDenver) who did a great job of laying out the point that old arguments and dead horses are fresh material for new members. People don't come on board with an encyclopedic knowledge of the archives, and topics that we've rehashed a thousand times are totally new conversations for some of the participants. 

Now, when I made a very quick, very dismissive response earlier... I didn't really look at the original poster, who in this case ( @Mike Jackson ) has only had a registered account here since April. 

So, my apologies to Mike. Sincerely. I should have paid closer attention to who made the initial comment, and I'm sorry that I didn't before tossing off a very undiplomatic response. 

Now, that said... Mike, this is something that's come up again and again, and there aren't really many (if any) examples of the "basketball is easier to fix because if you just get one guy, then..." concept. There are a LOT of examples of that not being the case, at every level of college basketball. But, rather than jump into a conversation without really understanding what the initial point might be, let's start this over from the top. 

If there's a discussion to be had here (and you don't have to engage in it), please give me an example of what you're talking about having happened at another program. Not a hypothetical, but a tangible historical or current example of the point you're trying to make. Once I have a better understanding of exactly what you're trying to say here, I'll respond (or not) accordingly. And, in any event, much more respectfully. 

GENERALLY, this tends to be a topic that comes up a lot with very, very casual college basketball followers. And, just like some of the other subjects that come up or came up repeatedly throughout forum history, including but not limited to:

- Hey, anyone think we should leave the Sun Belt and join the WAC?

- Hey, anyone ever consider starting a 4 team basketball tournament among the Metroplex schools?

- Hey, wouldn't a baseball team more than pay for itself? 

- Hey, wouldn't it be better to be in the 16 seed playoff game than to go into the tournament as a 14 or 15 seed? 

Things quickly fall into a pattern and people generally jump to their last (usually heated and frustrated) comments on the topic. 

So, again... My apologies to @Mike Jackson. Mike, if you really want to talk through that concept, we'll treat it like it's never been brought up here before and I'll be happy to discuss it with you much more diplomatically. 

[wardly]

Guys, I was told that our biggest surprise when Johnny left for LSU was an overall lack of interest in the job.[ I don't mean to discount the SFA head coach that moved of to Texas State and was a favorite of Firefighting Rick].I was really shocked when told this, as I though our program was the best it had been since Bill Blakely[sic?] was here.

[eulessismore]

Guys, I was told that our biggest surprise when Johnny left for LSU was an overall lack of interest in the job.[ I don't mean to discount the SFA head coach that moved of to Texas State and was a favorite of Firefighting Rick].I was really shocked when told this, as I though our program was the best it had been since Bill Blakely[sic?] was here.

I was at UNT during the Blakely era, and, unfortunately, didn't get interested in North Texas Sports again until the Todd Dodge hire.  Despite the oceans of difference between those 2 in terms of results, they each brought excitement and fans .  What did they both bring?  A strategy to win by outscoring the opponent.  Yeah, we don't need someone to bring special teams and defense failures like Dodge, but one thing I'd like to see in the next HC is someone who can bring a modern offense and the potential to put up big scores, compared to the inevitable boredom and frustration of anything similar to Coach Mac small ball.

[TheTastyGreek]

Guys, I was told that our biggest surprise when Johnny left for LSU was an overall lack of interest in the job.[ I don't mean to discount the SFA head coach that moved of to Texas State and was a favorite of Firefighting Rick].I was really shocked when told this, as I though our program was the best it had been since Bill Blakely[sic?] was here.

Not to say that isn't true, but it does beg an obvious question... Who told you that was the case? 

[eulessismore]

It's why people sound silly to me when they say "We need a guy who is this. We need a guy who is that."

No. We need a guy who is a good fit here. Don't get too caught up in what you want in a coach, from a resume standpoint. 

Why has this been so hard to understand? 

[BillySee58]

Why has this been so hard to understand? 

I had a long post typed out but I decided I've done enough elaborate posts on why RV is bad at hirings. Basically, he's made it very clear in his recent comments that he feels the Mccarney hire was a good one at the time, partly because some media had it as the second best hire in the country, and that Dodge was a good hire at the time given the circumstances and even Bill Parcells praised it. I've also heard the defense laid out for the Peterson hire based on him winning at other jobs. 

From what I've seen RV say and do, it's pretty clear to me he doesn't do a good job of making sure coaches have traits and abilities that will translate well to this particular job. He just looks for what can be perceived as good resumes, and if they fail he can point back to something on their resume that somehow should make him immune from blame.

Edited October 28, 2015 by BillySee58

[eulessismore]

I had a long post typed out but I decided I've done enough elaborate posts on why RV is bad at hirings. Basically, he's made it very clear in his recent comments that he feels the Mccarney hire was a good one at the time, partly because some media had it as the second best hire in the country, and that Dodge was a good hire at the time given the circumstances and even Bill Parcells praised it. I've also heard the defense laid out for the Peterson hire based on him winning at other jobs. 

From what I've seen RV say and do, it's pretty clear to me he doesn't do a good job of making sure coaches have traits and abilities that will translate well to this particular job. He just looks for eh at can be perceived as good resumes, and if they fail he can point back to something on their resume that somehow should make him immune from blame.

Hey thanks, it wasn't really a question looking for an answer, just a cry in the wilderness.

[UNT90]

It is all speculation at this point and ultimately it does not matter what we think of the hire because we are not paid to make successful hires.

But you hold that guy to zero accountability for the hires he has made, so...

[meangreenacct]

So to recap, we are just one once in a generation basketball player away from Benford turning the basketball program around?

[UNT90]

Sounds to me like someone is butt hurt over Tony Mitchell and doesn't know much about football either.  Riley Dodge was never mentioned as an almost can't miss NFL QB or WR prospect.   Riley Dodge was barely 6' ft tall and under 200 lbs.   That is right around the size of Russell Wilson.  Russell, even with his obvious talents and accomplishments in a good conference facing good competition, was drafted in the 3rd round primarily because of his size alone.  Because if he were 6' 2" or a little taller with all the same attributes and accomplishments he would have be drafted in the first round.  Yes, Riley was a very accomplished high school QB but he played at a great high school program surrounded by very good high school players.  And there is an asterisk by anything Riley accomplished at North Texas because he injured his throwing arm in the state championship game (his last high school game ever).

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"My arm hasn't been the same since after I was a senior in high school and had the shoulder surgery," said Dodge, who completed 67.7 percent of his passes for 1,975 yards and nine touchdowns with 15 interceptions for the 2-10 Mean Green last season."  Dallas Morning News Story 2010

So maybe if Tony had a major knee injury that diminished his explosiveness right before he arrived at UNT, you might have somewhat valid comparison

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

By the way another difference between football and basketball is that a high school football player would almost never be considered draft worthy in the first 2 rounds even if they could go straight to the NFL.   I can't think of any true freshman that would have been drafted in the first 3 round of the NFL Draft in April of their Freshman year.  Hershel Walker maybe and that was a different era when running back were valued way more than they are now at the NFL level.  Comparing anything in Basketball to Football is very shaky to say the least and is a huge indicator that a lot of your opinions should not be taken seriously either.  

Actually, Jamario Thomas's draft value would have been at its peak after he led the nation in rushing his freshman year

Just sayin....

[greenit]

Not to say that isn't true, but it does beg an obvious question... Who told you that was the case? 

Larry Bird. 

[Army of Dad]

So to recap, we are just one once in a generation basketball player away from Benford turning the basketball program around?

Why not? He certainly turned around the program with the last once in a generation player.

[Cr1028]

But you hold that guy to zero accountability for the hires he has made, so...

[Censored by Laurie]

I love when people say something like this, as it makes for a very easy signal that they don't know what they're talking about, and don't need to be taken remotely seriously whenever they share thoughts and opinions on basketball. 

I've just been running on that assumption for anyone logging in under their real name. 

[wardly]

If I publically give up the name of who told me that the basketball head coaching position was not highly sought after[at least by those we were interested in] then I would lose his confidence. You can believe me or not. I only bring this up because I am concerned  that  our football  head coaching position might be a difficult job to fill. We have fired our last 8 head coaches and are probably considered a coaches graveyard.

[Christopher Walker]

I've just been running on that assumption for anyone logging in under their real name. 

Why is that? My decision to use my real name was to kind of place a check on my own rants and make it easier to be called out if in error.

[MeanGreenTexan]

If I publically give up the name of who told me that the basketball head coaching position was not highly sought after[at least by those we were interested in] then I would lose his confidence. You can believe me or not. I only bring this up because I am concerned  that  our football  head coaching position might be a difficult job to fill. We have fired our last 8 head coaches and are probably considered a coaches graveyard.

I was under the assumption that once Benford threw his hat in the ring (with his excellent recruiting & Marquette/Buzz experience), Rick fell in love and the interest issue was actually the other way... as in, he was not interested in anyone else.  This, demonstrated in people seeing RV wining & dining Benford shortly after Johnny left for Baton Rouge.

[wardly]

MeanGreenTexan may be right, which is why a number of  coaches who did express interest were not contacted. Its water under the bridge.

[CMJ]

Clearly you are the one that doesn't if you don't think that one in a lifetime player like a Le Bron James would transform a program at least temporarily.  A future NBA Hall of Famer and prodigy with decent coaching and players around him that at least belong at the college level would take that team at least one round into the NCAA tournament (round of 32 not 64).   The round of 32 is better than any Mean Green Men's Basketball team has ever gone so I would call that transformational.  Three to five years after the prodigy is gone with average coaching and recruiting sure all that goes down the drain but you could say that about almost any program. So I wasn't talking about just a regular good recruit.  I am talking about a player that would in the top 5 of the NBA draft straight out of high school.  So unless you are former Division 1 college head coach, I don't think you are an authority to refute my opinion.

One can't ever make the kind of claim that anyone, even someone as good as Lebron James, would guarantee winning a round in the tournament.  One never knows what their seed would be, who they would play, or even match ups.  Sure, it seems like surely James could have led an Akron squad (probably no better than a 8 seed, and probably lower, based on their conference) a round or two deep in the tournament, but March is such a crap shoot.  I mean surely Duke can beat Lehigh, right?  Not in 2013.

Edited October 28, 2015 by CMJ

[untjim1995]

I've just been running on that assumption for anyone logging in under their real name. 

I can't you believe you would feel that way about the posters known as Ben Gooding and Ryan Munthe...you certainly wouldn't say it to their faces...

Edited October 28, 2015 by untjim1995

[Quoner]

One can't ever make the kind of claim that anyone, even someone as good as Lebron James, would guarantee winning a round in the tournament.  One never knows what their seed would be, who they would play, or even match ups.  Sure, it seems like surely James could have led an Akron squad (probably no better than a 8 seed, and probably lower, based on their conference) a round or two deep in the tournament, but March is such a crap shoot.  I mean surely Duke can beat Lehigh, right?  Not in 2013.

I know I have fond memories of Kevin Durant in the Sweet 16.

[Aldo]

I know I have fond memories of Kevin Durant in the Sweet 16.

Was that the sequel to Thunderstruck? 

[EagleMBA]

I was under the assumption that once Benford threw his hat in the ring (with his excellent recruiting & Marquette/Buzz experience), Rick fell in love and the interest issue was actually the other way... as in, he was not interested in anyone else.  This, demonstrated in people seeing RV wining & dining Benford shortly after Johnny left for Baton Rouge.

This sounds like (in football terms) RV locked in on one receiver, got the ball away, and the safety had Benford covered but fell down.

Edited October 28, 2015 by EagleMBA