Hypothetical question: If 5 years ago UNT had made Canales HC

[casual fan]

Disclaimer:  I'm not saying Canales should be UNT's next head coach.

However, he should be given props for making the best of 2 messes that he got stuck with.

Hypothetically speaking

What would have happened if he had been named HC 5 years ago?  

Would UNT now be in the same position?

                            OR

Would he now be entrenched as head coach?

It's a legitimate question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by casual fan

[Mean Green Matt]

Impossible to answer, but I would have preferred a 0-0 career (2-3 interim after taking over a mess) head coaching record to 56-85...

[Eppie96]

Good question.  I think we would be in about the same position.  I don't think talent level and recruiting would have been much better.  

I think we still would have won the HOD bowl in 2013, since these were all Dodge recruits and guys that he was with in 2010 when he took over for Dodge

[UNT90]

Good Lord. It's like we are a broken female who keeps picking men who beat her. 

Don't matter. The dude is gone November 28.

[EagleMBA]

Quien sabe? Five years of motivational high energy from a relatively young coach with good previous experience could have done good things here. It is interesting to contemplate but I couldn't even venture a guess.

[Mike Jackson]

I wanted Canales and not Mac back then.  It made little since hiring an older coach with a losing record with no connections or reputation in the state of Texas.  I sent him an e-mail voicing my support for as head coach at the time and he wrote me back.  He was ready but UNT wasn't ready to win and they had Rick Villarreal as AD so they botched the hire.  So they compounded the mistake of hiring Dodge with reaching for Mac.  They are poised to do the exact same thing again.  Hiring a coach who isn't ready to fix the mess here and doesn't have the experience necessary.  I am very scared of the next head coach hire.

 

[UNTexas]

One thing is obvious, he plays players that give him the best chance to win. If D Smith was our QB day 1, we beat SMU but I don't know what happens from there.

[Harry]

It wouldn't have changed a thing.  Mike was not going to change Dan's offensive mindset and philosophy of pounding the ball.

Again, UNT's issues are not position coach specific.  Yes we need to change our offense to be able to attract the better QB's and skill position players.  But the biggest issue for UNT is recruiting, always has been hopefully always won't be.
 
Our greatest strength always has been our location.  The problem we had up to 2011 was our facilities.  We addressed that in 2011, but we didn't tell anyone about it on the recruiting trail because we weren't recruiting as we should have been.  That is why whoever takes this job HAS to be a good recruiter and their word is not enough.  We have to research their word and get testimony from high schools that produce the most D-I athletes.  We took the word of a consultant last time and the fact is you or I could recruit 4-5 star athletes at Florida. 

My biggest concern about this next hire, is that we will not emphasize recruiting capabilities and in particular talent evaluation.  I am not saying that it has to be at a g5 or lessor school. I am not even saying that the head coach has to be a great recruiter himself, but he has to show that he knows how to put together and incentivize a staff who can.

It is not an easy skill to evaluate.  We focus so much on winning.  UTSA does not have a winning program but if you look at their balance sheet, you have to say they get more with limited resources than most.  They know how to evaluate talent.  Now most of the better ones they get early commitments on end up going other places but that is part of the game.  It's a numbers game.  It's spending time with the right guys, it's giving offers to guys who you find out through hard work and effort that you actually may have a decent shot at.

Quick story -- Jamario Thomas did not have a ton of early offers, but I know for a fact that there were several p5 schools who had interest and offered him, including Texas Tech.  Our recruiter at that time really got to know the family, and in particular his brother who was heavily involved.  As this process played out, it became known through the brother that Jamario needed a certain type of educational focus area that UNT happened to be one of the best in the country for.  The coach recruiting him was able to get the top professor in that department to meet with the family on an official visit and the rest is history.  This story always made me feel really good about our coaches and their efforts.  Remember, at that time we couldn't even take recruits by Fouts as it was such an eyesore and our coaching salaries were horrendously low for even Sun Belt standards.

I think Mac started down the road of doing similar things here.  The story of the recruitment on Cyril Lemon was impressive.  We had a face to face battle with Colorado State for him.  I feel like Mac sold the family connection in that particular case.  Unfortunately, stories like this disappeared longer into Mac's regime here. 

I am going to keep pounding this recruiting theme over and over again with the hopes that everyone involved in the new UNT hire will listen.  An organizational plan and structure that has proven successful.  The ability to hire a staff with proven recruiting prowess.  Consistency.  An ability to know your competitors strength and weaknesses.  Incentivizing your staff financially and in title to recruit.  An outstanding recruiter is THE MOST VALUABLE PERSON ON YOUR STAFF in this era and at this level.  Like sales, it's a numbers game.  I can't tell you how many flashy looking and acting salespeople crashed and burned over their careers when the less flashy but organized and consistent ones prospered.  We didn't place enough emphasis on generating 20 Cyril Lemon stories instead of just 1.  You cannot develop talent when it is not talented.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Harry

[Harry]

Chico might be a nice guy and all but I am more than ready for him to go be a nice guy somewhere else.

Right now, he is trying to salvage something, anything, out of a horrifically inept offense that he himself has created over the last several years.

Agreed.  I like Chico -- but he has to take some accountability for the mess we are in.  His quarterback recruiting, and development will unfortunately be hard to defend.  Was it all his fault?  Probably not but we still need to go in a new direction.

[Got5onIt]

Intriguing question. Honestly, I'd like to think Canales would've done better considering how bad this season is....

[DeepGreen]

Hopefully we'll never know.

[FirefightnRick]

Agree with Harry 100%.

 

 

Rick

Edited October 26, 2015 by FirefightnRick

[Mike Jackson]

It wouldn't have changed a thing.  Mike was not going to change Dan's offensive mindset and philosophy of pounding the ball.

 

First sentence I understand but disagree.  Second part I believe is complete BS.  More excuses for RV, I see.  Dan came in here trying to run offset eye formations with the quarterback under center his first season.   The offense Mike Canales ran the last few game after Dodge was fired looked nothing like the offense we ran opening day the next season with Mac.   Mike Canales does like to run the ball and it would be stupid not too with that being the deepest most talented skill position on the roster.  But he isn't a stubborn Big 10 or old Big 8 coach that wants a offense that can move the ball in Nebraska, Kanas, and Iowa in November.  Loved Dan attitude and if all I had to evaluate him on was he prep game pep speeches I would have hired him too.  However when you looked at the man's record and background he wasn't a fit for North Texas and only an idiot makes that hire here.  Now if this was Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming or the Air Force Academy he may have been pretty good for those programs.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Mike Jackson

[casual fan]

This is  a question that can't be answered.  

However, with Canales as HC would Dajon Williams have been developed at QB or  Eric Evans used more as a receiver out of the backfield. 

Williams as a freshman last year was 46 of 77 for 607 yards with 7 TDs and 4 int,

Evans as a freshman last year rushed 24 times for 204 yards (8.5 ave) and 3 TDs.  I noticed he had a 62 yard TD on Saturday. 

I just hate to see young talented players walk away from the program.

The next coach needs to be able to recruit and then develop the talented players he has so they will stick around.

[greenminer]

Would we have signed McNulty?

[casual fan]

 

Would we have signed McNulty?

Great point.

[Silent Eagle]

No- we would not have signed McNulty. We would probably be looking at Dajon as QB still, and probably would have a string of at or barely above 500 for the duration of his time. The players he coached were excited to play for him because he was a change of leadership. He wouldn't have been able to bring in a higher level of talent. Dodge recruits came here because he was a name the entire state knew. 

 

[NorthTexan95]

Again, UNT's issues are not position coach specific.  Yes we need to change our offense to be able to attract the better QB's and skill position players.  But the biggest issue for UNT is recruiting, always has been hopefully always won't be.
 

I'll just point out that this is partly position coach specific.  Most of the coaches on Mac's staff had little to know real ties to Texas high schools.  Not that every coach needs a tie but more helps. 

[Cr1028]

I think the offenses would've been better, the defenses worse(except this year's). I think given free reign, the offense would've be much more exciting to watch. D. Smith and Dajon were Chico qbs. McNulty was shoved down his throat. However, we wouldn't have won the HOD bowl or had a 9-3 season. That we owe largely to Skladany who wouldn't have come here for Chico. He did it for his buddy Mac. I think Canales would likely have been around a .500 coach overall, maybe a bit under. No seasons better than 7 wins, no seasons worse than 4 wins.

[UNTLifer]

For those of you critical of the recruiting under Mac and pleased with the recruiting under Dodge, remember Chico also worked under Mac. Point?  If you are critical of his recruiting the last few years but were pleased with it prior then the one change was the HC is was operating under. I think that is a hollow argument. Beyond that, it is difficult to say what he would have done, but I would guess it would be better than what we have experienced. 

[GOMG2013]

I think the offenses would've been better, the defenses worse(except this year's). I think given free reign, the offense would've be much more exciting to watch. D. Smith and Dajon were Chico qbs. McNulty was shoved down his throat. However, we wouldn't have won the HOD bowl or had a 9-3 season. That we owe largely to Skladany who wouldn't have come here for Chico. He did it for his buddy Mac. I think Canales would likely have been around a .500 coach overall, maybe a bit under. No seasons better than 7 wins, no seasons worse than 4 wins.

this.

[MeanGreenHoops]

What @Harry said. And I'll add that means no coach that looks like Mac. We need a younger coach who can recruit. Dodge is a pretty good template believe it or not. Someone who has more skins on the wall would be better though, like one of the coaches who has won at more difficult places, or turned around programs. Dodge had one thing right in the profile, he had a name that could generate excitement. But it wasn't enough.

[untjim1995]

It wouldn't have changed a thing.  Mike was not going to change Dan's offensive mindset and philosophy of pounding the ball.

Again, UNT's issues are not position coach specific.  Yes we need to change our offense to be able to attract the better QB's and skill position players.  But the biggest issue for UNT is recruiting, always has been hopefully always won't be.
 
Our greatest strength always has been our location.  The problem we had up to 2011 was our facilities.  We addressed that in 2011, but we didn't tell anyone about it on the recruiting trail because we weren't recruiting as we should have been.  That is why whoever takes this job HAS to be a good recruiter and their word is not enough.  We have to research their word and get testimony from high schools that produce the most D-I athletes.  We took the word of a consultant last time and the fact is you or I could recruit 4-5 star athletes at Florida. 

My biggest concern about this next hire, is that we will not emphasize recruiting capabilities and in particular talent evaluation.  I am not saying that it has to be at a g5 or lessor school. I am not even saying that the head coach has to be a great recruiter himself, but he has to show that he knows how to put together and incentivize a staff who can.

It is not an easy skill to evaluate.  We focus so much on winning.  UTSA does not have a winning program but if you look at their balance sheet, you have to say they get more with limited resources than most.  They know how to evaluate talent.  Now most of the better ones they get early commitments on end up going other places but that is part of the game.  It's a numbers game.  It's spending time with the right guys, it's giving offers to guys who you find out through hard work and effort that you actually may have a decent shot at.

Quick story -- Jamario Thomas did not have a ton of early offers, but I know for a fact that there were several p5 schools who had interest and offered him, including Texas Tech.  Our recruiter at that time really got to know the family, and in particular his brother who was heavily involved.  As this process played out, it became known through the brother that Jamario needed a certain type of educational focus area that UNT happened to be one of the best in the country for.  The coach recruiting him was able to get the top professor in that department to meet with the family on an official visit and the rest is history.  This story always made me feel really good about our coaches and their efforts.  Remember, at that time we couldn't even take recruits by Fouts as it was such an eyesore and our coaching salaries were horrendously low for even Sun Belt standards.

I think Mac started down the road of doing similar things here.  The story of the recruitment on Cyril Lemon was impressive.  We had a face to face battle with Colorado State for him.  I feel like Mac sold the family connection in that particular case.  Unfortunately, stories like this disappeared longer into Mac's regime here. 

I am going to keep pounding this recruiting theme over and over again with the hopes that everyone involved in the new UNT hire will listen.  An organizational plan and structure that has proven successful.  The ability to hire a staff with proven recruiting prowess.  Consistency.  An ability to know your competitors strength and weaknesses.  Incentivizing your staff financially and in title to recruit.  An outstanding recruiter is THE MOST VALUABLE PERSON ON YOUR STAFF in this era and at this level.  Like sales, it's a numbers game.  I can't tell you how many flashy looking and acting salespeople crashed and burned over their careers when the less flashy but organized and consistent ones prospered.  We didn't place enough emphasis on generating 20 Cyril Lemon stories instead of just 1.  You cannot develop talent when it is not talented.

This is dead-on...we have great programs to recruit players here, as well as terrific facilities and a solid conference setup.

The only thing that I think I would disagree on, though, has been, historically, our location hasn't helped us at all...I think it has been a detriment, actually.

The SWC owned DFW for so long that even after they broke apart, the leftover schools in DFW still got attention at a much higher level than we got. Of course, TCU left us all in the dust, but SMU always got higher level recruits and media coverage from the local media. In so many ways, our connection to DFW and the ways that Denton has not supported our program have really hurt us in the eyes of many.

Obviously, winning could change this view in the eyes of recruits and fans, but it will always be tougher just because we are viewed as third in the DFW market, much less within the state. Right now, if you are a high school recruit, the best attribute that UNT has going for it is playing time. If you want to play in the first couple of years you are on campus, you can do that here. And you will get to play games closer to home than SMU will play, even when we play on the road. You get 5-6 games in Denton, with trips to Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Ruston, and Hattiesburg, as well. Your family can easily come see you play, especially if you are getting to actually play in your freshman and sophomore years.

[meangreendork]

Would we have signed McNulty?

In that alternate universe, we don't even know who he is.

[greenminer]

@meangreendork ha!

There would have been no Iowa and, somehow someway, McCarney would hold title of President of National Championship of Florida