RV: Dodge was a good hire based on who we could hire

UNT90 · October 22, 2015

You know, it's sad RV feels the need to defend himself. Like I said in another thread, my dad always taught me to work hard and let others acknowledge that work.

Just reeks of insecurity and desperation.

MeanGreenTexan · October 22, 2015

"...based on who we could go hire."

This is placing blame on Bataille again. He blames 2 coaching failures on Bataille: Dodge & Stephens.

In a way, I agree with him. If she's not going to "allow" a coach to make more money than her, then Dodge was a fine gamble. Now, if he were a good Athletic Director, he would not have allowed Dodge to bring his high school assistants with him.

Cerebus · October 22, 2015

Not near as bad as the dumpster fire of buyouts Michigan had to endure.

Well considering that each B10 school makes $45M a year from TV contracts, while CUSA schools make $1.1M, you have a pretty easy argument that our payout hurt a lot worse than theirs.

VideoEagle · October 22, 2015

To be accurate, I sent him an e-mail and said "has anyone from North Texas contacted you about the head coach opening?". His response "I'd love to hear from someone at North Texas about the job". I have no knowledge that he contacted the athletic department about being a candidate. But what this exchange tells me is that there WERE other viable coaching options for RV to consider. To say otherwise is a lie.

Thanks Silver, I was about to ask for clarification on that very point. It doesn't appear Carthal applied for the job and never heard back. After Silver called him, Carthal could have contacted the school and asked how to apply for the job. We don't know if he did or not.

Again, RV has done enough things poorly that we don't have to invent new ones.

Now, if he were a good Athletic Director, he would not have allowed Dodge to bring his high school assistants with him.

There, that's a mistake RV made. I think just a competent DC could have really helped Dodge that first year. Mendoza didn't have a clue on how to disguise coverages.

Quoner · October 22, 2015

"...based on who we could go hire."
This is placing blame on Bataille again. He blames 2 coaching failures on Bataille: Dodge & Stephens.
In a way, I agree with him. If she's not going to "allow" a coach to make more money than her, then Dodge was a fine gamble. Now, if he were a good Athletic Director, he would not have allowed Dodge to bring his high school assistants with him.

Weird that some people get difficult bosses and have to figure out how to work with/around them and still be effective. We should look into this rare phenomenon.

SilverEagle · October 22, 2015

To be accurate, I sent him an e-mail and said "has anyone from North Texas contacted you about the head coach opening?". His response "I'd love to hear from someone at North Texas about the job". I have no knowledge that he contacted the athletic department about being a candidate. But what this exchange tells me is that there WERE other viable coaching options for RV to consider. To say otherwise is a lie.

AND, when Dodge was fired I immediately sent an almost identically worded e-mail to Carthel, Tomsen, and the head coach at SHSU. I got a response from both Tomsen and the SHSU coach asking who I was. When I said that I was not a person in a position to hire, the correspondence ended there.

But what I'm conveying in this story is that three viable candidates were made aware of the job opening in 2010, and one can reasonably assume that at least one of them might have had their agent check on things.

UNTGuy5 · October 22, 2015

Since RV keeps talking about how it's a marathon, does that mean we have to put up with his crap for another 11.2 years?

SilverEagle · October 22, 2015

Thanks Silver, I was about to ask for clarification on that very point. It doesn't appear Carthal applied for the job and never heard back. After Silver called him, Carthal could have contacted the school and asked how to apply for the job. We don't know if he did or not.
Again, RV has done enough things poorly that we don't have to invent new ones.
There, that's a mistake RV made. I think just a competent DC could have really helped Dodge that first year. Mendoza didn't have a clue on how to disguise coverages.

This is true, but one has to assume that since he used the phrase "I would love to hear from someone", he might have had his agent make some inquiries.

And this brings me to another question. Just what is the protocol regarding being approached and/or approaching a school about a job opening? Does the applicant make the first move through their agent? I'm real fuzzy about the process.

Harry · October 22, 2015

This is true, but one has to assume that since he used the phrase "I would love to hear from someone", he might have had his agent make some inquiries.
And this brings me to another question. Just what is the protocol regarding being approached and/or approaching a school about a job opening? Does the applicant make the first move through their agent? I'm real fuzzy about the process.

These coaches typically have agents who can inquire directly with schools about jobs. However, the consultant can act as the confidential go between which allows the coach to have inquiries, or possibly even interviews etc without their school or fanbase being notified. Remember, most of these guys are in the middle of a season. Once a school gets to a finalist stage they will ask the coach or their agent permissions to release their name. At this point most coaches will allow their names to be released because it is considered good press that they made the finalist... in some cases they still do not want their name released or they pull out all together.

In terms of our job, I would expect that RV has engaged a search firm or consultant to handle both confidential inquiries and paperwork, background checks etc. He is probably having conversations with coaches and their agents and directing them to said firm if they are interested and having them complete an application. In the case of Mac, they made several trips to Florida to meet with Mac and his family. I would think they would do something similar here. He said last night, his goal was to have this hire finalized as soon as the season was over and that is basically a month away.

What people don't understand is that there is a very small window available for these coaching hires. There are 4-5 openings now, there may be 10 or more by the end of the season. If Chad Morris takes the USC job then guess what SMU will be back in the search process with us. So it is imperative that you put your best foot forward to get the right guy in a timely fashion when you are trying to land a head coach. We have a month and the clock is ticking.

BillySee58 · October 22, 2015

"...based on who we could go hire."
This is placing blame on Bataille again. He blames 2 coaching failures on Bataille: Dodge & Stephens.
In a way, I agree with him. If she's not going to "allow" a coach to make more money than her, then Dodge was a fine gamble. Now, if he were a good Athletic Director, he would not have allowed Dodge to bring his high school assistants with him.

A misconception I see on the board is that you can't get a good coach if you don't have the salary necessary to commit. I think a good AD can interview under-the-radar candidates and find one capable of winning here. Or, like you said, not letting him bring in his high school staff. We were much more competitive in Dodge's 4th year then we were under Mccarney in his 5th year.

You couple the low committable salary with RV's inability to recognize good coaches through the interview process and be a good AD, and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Mean_Green09 · October 22, 2015

A misconception I see on the board is that you can't get a good coach if you don't have the salary necessary to commit. I think a good AD can interview under-the-radar candidates and find one capable of winning here. Or, like you said, not letting him bring in his high school staff. We were much more competitive in Dodge's 4th year then we were under Mccarney in his 5th year.
You couple the low committable salary with RV's inability to recognize good coaches through the interview process and be a good AD, and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Maybe good people dont want to come here.

Maybe its too hard to hire good coaches here.

rcade · October 22, 2015

What people don't understand is that there is a very small window available for these coaching hires. There are 4-5 openings now, there may be 10 or more by the end of the season. If Chad Morris takes the USC job then guess what SMU will be back in the search process with us. So it is imperative that you put your best foot forward to get the right guy in a timely fashion when you are trying to land a head coach. We have a month and the clock is ticking.

Don't you think at this point in the season a lot of potential coaching hires aren't in a position to make plans? If you assume that UNT would go after a current head coach or top coordinator at a school that's doing well, the person is going to be engaged in that until much closer to bowl time. Hiring with urgency in October/November seems like an approach that only would get us a coach currently out of work.

UNTcrazy727 · October 22, 2015

Maybe good people dont want to ~~come here.~~ work with RV.
Maybe its too hard to for RV to hire good coaches here.

FIFY

Cr1028 · October 22, 2015

I don't think I have out sized expectation. In fact, I think unt90 has called my expectation defeatist. I know we are not going to ever be one of the top program sin the state, the P5 schools have too much of a money lead on us. What I do expect is for us to be a top G5 school. We should be in position to constantly threaten to win CUSA. Instead this is how the last "good hire" performed:
TOTAL SCORING OFFENSE
6.   WKU - 44.0 <-- First Full FBS season, 2009
22.   Middle Tennessee   - 37.3
26.   Louisiana Tech - 36.7
38.   Southern Miss - 34.7
55.   Marshall - 31.9
68.   RICE - 29.3
78.   FIU - 27.6 <-- First Full FBS season, 2005
100.   Florida Atlantic - 23.2 <-- First Full FBS season, 2005
108.   UTEP   - 21.3
109.   UTSA   - 20.9   <-- First Full FBS season, 2014
114.   Old Dominion - 20.0 <-- First Full FBS season, 2014
120.   Charlotte -   19.2 <-- First Full FBS season, 2015
124.   North Texas - 17.0

TOTAL SCORING DEFENSE
19.   Marshall - 17.4
50.   WKU   - 24.0 <-- First Full FBS season, 2009
53.   FIU - 24.1 <-- First Full FBS season, 2005
63.   Southern Miss - 25.9
82.   Middle Tennessee   - 28.7
83.   Louisiana Tech - 28.9
91.   Florida Atlantic - 31.8 <-- First Full FBS season, 2005
94.   Old Dominion - 32.0 <-- First Full FBS season, 2014
99.   Charlotte - 32.3 <-- First Full FBS season, 2015
107.   UTSA   - 35.1  <-- First Full FBS season, 2014
116.   RICE - 37.8
123.   UTEP   - 43.0
128.   North Texas - 50.2

124th in the nation in scoring, 128 in scoring defense. Dead last in our conference. Even worse, the previous "good hire" also left us at the very bottom of our conference.
Can't wait for the next "good hire!"

The first statement is ignoring the 2013 season which may have been our best team since coming back from I-AA.

2013 offense: 50th 31.8 ppg, behind Old Dominion (not in conference at the time) 7th 42.3 ppg, Marshall 8th 42.1 ppg, and ECU 9th 40.2 ppg,

2013 defense: 8th 17.8 ppg, ahead of everyone, closest conference foe Tulane at 18th with 21.4 ppg

The second statement is just false.

2010 offense: 85th 23.9 ppg, ahead of WKU 89th 22.7 ppg, ULL 92nd 22.3 ppg, ULM 102nd 20.8 ppg, FAU 113th 16.8 ppg

2010 defense: 82nd 29.7 ppg, ahead of Troy 84th 30.2 ppg, ArkState 91st 30.8 ppg, ULM 97th 32.4 ppg, WKU 99th 33.2 ppg, ULL 112th 37.0 ppg,

2009 offense: 67th 26.1 ppg, behind Troy 16th 33.7 ppg, MTSU 23rd 32ppg, FAU 60th 27.4 ppg

2009 defense: 112th 35.6 ppg ahead of only WKU 119th 39.6 ppg

went ahead and added as far back as they went to show that 05-06 Dickey is the only offense worse than this year's and to show that this year's defense is worse than any Todd Dodge defense, even with a high school DC.

2008 offense: 103rd 20.0 ppg, last in conference

2008 defense: 119th 47.6 ppg, dead last

2007 offense: 79th 24.8 ppg, ahead of ArkSt 84th 24.3 ppg, ULL 89th 23.8 ppg, ULM 90th 23.5 ppg, FIU 15.1 120th ppg

2007 defense: 119th 45.1 ppg, dead last, for whatever reason they have WKU on the offense list but not defense, that's why 119/120

2006 offense: 115th 12.8 ppg, ahead of FIU 119th 9.6 ppg

2006 defense: 81st 25.3 ppg, ahead of FIU 88th 26.1 ppg,

2005 offense: 113th 14.3 ppg, ahead of FAU 13.5 ppg

2005 defense: 100th 31.5 ppg, last in conference

2004 offense: 52nd 25.8 ppg, best in conference

2004 defense: 82nd 29.7 ppg, ahead of Utah State 83rd 30.3 ppg, NMSU 97th 32.3 ppg, ArkSt 102nd 33.2 ppg, Idaho 113th 39.4 ppg

Edited October 22, 2015 by Cr1028

NorthTexan95 · October 22, 2015

I don't think "everybody" or Bill Parcells thought that Dodge's AD would let him bring in an entire high school coaching staff.

Cerebus · October 22, 2015

The first statement is ignoring the 2013 season which may have been our best team since coming back from I-AA.

How is it ignoring anything? 2013 was a Great year, pretty sure the 2003 or 2004 team would beat that team handily, but a great year. However the total lack of recruiting got is to where we are the worst performing team in the conference. Dickey had some great years too, should he never have been fired because of that?

The second statement is just false.

We finished second to last in 2009 and 2010, how is that not the very bottom of the conference? BTW the team who we finished ahead of both those years was WKU, who has zoomed right past us. They were, of course, just starting their first and second year in FBS. Yet somehow they managed to hire coaches that built a program and won. Despite having 15k fewer students than us they have double the amount of athletics club donors (MGC: 830 / HAF: 1600+) and close to twice the number of football season tickets (NT: 4285 / WKU: 7588).

I get it, you like the AD. You can defend him on a lot of things. Football coaching hires isn't really one of them.

FirefightnRick · October 22, 2015

Thanks Silver, I was about to ask for clarification on that very point. It doesn't appear Carthal applied for the job and never heard back. After Silver called him, Carthal could have contacted the school and asked how to apply for the job. We don't know if he did or not.
Again, RV has done enough things poorly that we don't have to invent new ones.
There, that's a mistake RV made. I think just a competent DC could have really helped Dodge that first year. Mendoza didn't have a clue on how to disguise coverages.

Rick was well aware of Carthel as a viable candidate. Carthel was discussed here numerous times and has been on other boards for other programs around the state of Texas. When he had his players walk out of the lockerroom during halftime of a game against Tarleton to go into the stands and pass around buckets in order to take up a collection for the wife of the TSU coach who was battling cancer it made statewide news.

Bottom line...we did not do a very thorough search to replace Dickey.

Rick

IslandEagle · October 22, 2015

Sorry RV: "res ipsa loquitur".

Cowtown · October 22, 2015

"I think I transform buildings"
- Godzilla

"I think I transform the living"

- Zombie

Cr1028 · October 22, 2015

Well considering that each B10 school makes $45M a year from TV contracts, while CUSA schools make $1.1M, you have a pretty easy argument that our payout hurt a lot worse than theirs.

Touche

Point is well taken and sustained.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Cr1028

MeanGreenTexan · October 22, 2015

Rick was well aware of Carthel as a viable candidate. Carthel was discussed here numerous times and has been on other boards for other programs around the state of Texas. When he had his players walk out of the lockerroom during halftime of a game against Tarleton to go into the stands and pass around buckets in order to take up a collection for the wife of the TSU coach who was battling cancer it made statewide news.
Bottom line...we did not do a very thorough search to replace Dickey.

Rick

There are only a few guys on here who keep trumpeting either Carthel. Don was not hired here, nor was he ever hired anywhere else. We didn't miss anything with him. His son may get a shot sometime (likely from an FCS school), but it should not be from us right now.

oldguystudent · October 22, 2015

Prior to this particular thread, there was a lot of "Well at least Dodge did X," and "Dodge would've won if he'd been able to hire Y," sentiment. You know, he's gone on record saying that he'd come back here in a heartbeat. He was a "good hire," and he still carries a lot of sentimental capital among a significant number of fans both rich and poor. I say it's time for Southlake Jesus to take a walk across Westake in Austin and come a second time to Denton!

untbowler · October 22, 2015

Prior to this particular thread, there was a lot of "Well at least Dodge did X," and "Dodge would've won if he'd been able to hire Y," sentiment. You know, he's gone on record saying that he'd come back here in a heartbeat. He was a "good hire," and he still carries a lot of sentimental capital among a significant number of fans both rich and poor. I say it's time for Southlake Jesus to take a walk across Westake in Austin and come a second time to Denton!

I would be fine bringing Dodge back as a QB Coach or OC, the man can recruit talent, but could not find a good DC.