Who would you have hired? Are you any better than RV?

[Cr1028]

You can skip the following paragraph if you like and just answer the question at the bottom.

There are a lot of FIRE RV threads around here due solely to his failure to hire consistently successful head coaches. My question to our members here is, "What would you have done differently?". It isn't always easy to find the right person for the job. We hired a guy at my work a little over a year ago and my bosses have been majorly disappointed with him. His interview went fine but if they'd have known he'd be this bad, they would've never hired the guy. I looked back at my old posts and know I would've pretty much hired the same guys RV did for football so I'd have been fired myself I guess. I was over the moon when he took a chance on Dodge. All indications are that he made that hire on his own. After the fallout from that hire, he went and paid $40k to consultant Chuck Neinas to help choose a coach. This one even had the Hayden Fry seal of approval.  I don't know what he could've done differently other than predict the future and if he could do that he sure as hell wouldn't be working for us. I originally wanted Canales until we gave up 49 points to Monroe, then I wanted a defensive coach and Mac was the candidate that fit the criteria. I also thought it'd be great if we could keep Canales as OC and we did. I've gotten everything I've ever wanted in a football head coach from RV, the hires just didn't work out.

SO, the question is, of the legitimate candidates that we had in '06 and '10, who would you've hired instead and how has their career progressed since that missed hire?? Please refrain from the Leach and Harbaugh suggestions because those were never going to happen and if you're honest with yourself, you know that.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Cr1028

[untbowler]

Leavitt, Hudspeth, and Franchione would have been great

BBall would have been Cross

[UNT90]

Dumb thread.

We are idiot fans who don't get paid 300k plus to continually fail at our job. 

While we all have our opinions and favorites, it is all from surface info that no professional (key word there) AD would ever use to base a hire.

 

[kj86]

The difference is...I don't get paid to assess and select coaches. I may have done even worse. 

[rcade]

Five years ago here on GMG, I said, "My main criteria for the head coach is that he have significant FBS head coaching experience and be someone the fans and media would get excited about." McCarney fit the first criteria but not the second.

Somebody like Mike Leach, who was available, would've fit both. His salary requirements are far higher than what we paid McCarney, given what he's making at Washington State now, but he would've lit a fire under the fan base and he got a lot of media attention.

[Cr1028]

Dumb thread.

We are idiot fans who don't get paid 300k plus to continually fail at our job. 

While we all have our opinions and favorites, it is all from surface info that no professional (key word there) AD would ever use to base a hire.

 

You mean predict the future? Deloss Dodds made more than double that and he hired both McWilliams and Mackovic. He finally found the right ingredient with Mack Brown. This isn't an exact science you know.

[UNT90]

You mean predict the future? Deloss Dodds made more than double that and he hired both McWilliams and Mackovic. He finally found the right ingredient with Mack Brown. This isn't an exact science you know.

 

The record doesn't stop with football, and you know it.

RV lies to the fan base constantly, provides horrible football schedules, can't get the ticket office to complete the simple task of getting tickets to a small number (relative to other programs) of fans before away games, forcing them to wait in long will call lines even though they ordered tickets weeks in advance. And not just on one occasion.

But keep up the completely illogical defense that because he has sucked at his job for the better part of 15 years, it's no reason to fire him. 

This fan base can truly be amazing with their acceptance of suck sometimes. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by UNT90

[Cr1028]

The record doesn't stop with football, and you know it.

RV lies to the fan base constantly, provides horrible football schedules, can't get the ticket office to complete the simple task of getting tickets to a small number (relative to other programs) of fans before the fame, forcing them to wait in long will call lines even though they ordered tickets weeks in advance. And not just on one occasion.

But keep up the completely illogical defense that because he has sucked at his job for the better part of 15 years, it's no reason to fire him. 

This fan base can truly be amazing with their acceptance of suck sometimes. 

I can't argue against any of the points you made. All I can argue is that picking a coach isn't as easy as just "picking the right coach". Maybe he deserves to go for all the reasons you stated but I don't think the football program's failure this year should be the reason. He did what needed to be done and fired the head coach.

[UNT90]

I can't argue against any of the points you made. All I can argue is that picking a coach isn't as easy as just "picking the right coach". Maybe he deserves to go for all the reasons you stated but I don't think the football program's failure this year should be the reason. He did what needed to be done and fired the head coach.

 

He did what he was told to do by some very large donors. And he didn't do it in a very classy or proper way, although the point could be made that that loss deserved something immediate and improper.

Dont forget he also not only hired a basketball coach that was CLEARLY in WAY over his head, and that coach is still here for year 4 after deconstructing a once proud program. And what did RV do? Publicly blamed 20 year olds for HIS failure.

Need more?

[Harry]

I can't argue against any of the points you made. All I can argue is that picking a coach isn't as easy as just "picking the right coach". Maybe he deserves to go for all the reasons you stated but I don't think the football program's failure this year should be the reason. He did what needed to be done and fired the head coach.

 

You and I are of the same mind tonight Cr.  Lookit -- no one, and I mean very select few were against either the Mac or Benford hires at the time they were made.  The only ones who were were outliers, probably someone who had another guy in mind or would never be satisfied with any hire.  The main issue with Benford was could he recruit and keep Tony and the team together as I recall..  Same thing for Mac... guy had won a national championship as a DEFENSIVE line coach at Florida and made a tough place to recruit to (Iowa State) competitive.  Seemed like exactly what we needed at the time.  What we didn't know was that he couldn't recruit or put together a team of assistants that could recruit and he ran a very conservative offense.

What complicates the Mac situation is 2013 and the bowl win.  That honestly was the high point of my time as a UNT fan and was for many others I know.  In hindsight, it is apparent that that year was built off of a). Dodge's recruits and b). a VERY down year in C-USA.  But again, I do not recall a ton of people crying over us renewing Mac's deal after we had just experienced the best year UNT has experienced in modern times.  In fact, it seemed like the right thing to do.

I will go a step further and add that EVERYONE, with a few notable exceptions (George Derr) thought Todd Dodge was a good hire too.

Mike Petersen was an extremely bad hire BTW but at the time we thought we "stole" him from Wake Forest.

So you are correct in stating that it is indeed an inexact science and one which is difficult to gauge even at places who have a lot more resources than we ever will.

I think the validity of the argument being made by many is yes, AD's should be judged on their track record of hiring.  That's just the way it has always been and will always be.  You'll get no argument from me there.  But let us not revise history to further our agenda and claim that all of the hires made were "bad" hires at the time. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Harry

[emmitt01]

Look, it's this simple.  His job is to lead our athletic department to success in all aspects.  That is what he gets paid, and rather handsomely, for.  Part of that is hiring coaches that will win.  I don't have to prove that I could have done a better job...I never took the salary to be North Texas AD so it's in no way, shape or form incumbent on me to prove I could do better.  This tired argument gets trotted out to defend coaches (and now AD's) far too often.

Imagine if I became Chief of Police in Dallas tomorrow.  If crime goes up, there is widespread officer misconduct, or case solvency percentages are in the teens those fall on me.  I would have no right, and should be fired ON THE SPOT if I tried this, to go before the city council and say "which crime prevention plan would you have tried??!!  Huh?"  I took the position, the salary and the responsibility.  If I fail to do my job then I deserve to be shown the door...simple.

[adman]

Being an AD isn't an either or proposition. Just like being a head football coach isn't either/or. But in the end we judge coaches on wins. (Mac did a LOT for this program but ultimately he came up short on wins. and so he was let go. I do think history will be kind to Mac and I think it should.) - RAMBLE: Dodge drove this program off a cliff and into a gorge. Mac came in, had to climb down the cliffside, gather the remaining parts of the truck, climb back up the hill and assemble the remaining parts into a new truck and attempt to drive down the road to victory. With all that was broken he did a pretty good job but ultimately he wasn't a great enough mechanic or driver to get far enough down the road for us. 

(There are more students at each home game than anytime since Ive been following and they keep showing up. That's a direct result of Mac insisting orientation come through the stadium and him selling the students on the experience. So kudos for that long play. Hopefully whomever takes over keeps it up. But again - it's wins as a HFC that ultimately matter. )

 

Conversely facilities aren't enough as an AD which is the majority of what RV has to hang his sleeveless sweater on. An AD needs to be great at a few things and at least good at all others. RV has been good at one thing. Getting some facilities. And I applaud that and think we should name something for him. But if he'd been adequate (not even good) at other aspects of ADing we'd be leaps and bounds of where we are, overall, in athletics as a university. He's proven incapable at marketing. Promoting. Scheduling. Managing. Hiring. Listening. Hiring. Accountability. Hiring. Raising money. Hiring. To put it another way: He's a lot like a certain QB - He's done the best he can and he's not a bad guy but his ceiling is low and it's time to get someone in with more upside. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by adman

[UNT90]

Also, no one had Dan McCarney listed as THE guy they wanted before the hire.

Absolutely no one.

So this is really a failed premise. People were accepting, but Mac wasn't anyone's first choice.

Except RV...

[EagleMBA]

There are very articulate and detailed arguments in this thread. Having read them, I couldn't add anything from my knowledge or research. I do have one thought which I would like to throw out here and I think it summarizes what you all have said. The job of the AD is not just to hire and supervise coaches, not just to support student athletes, not just to schmooze donors, not just to oversee the smooth and efficient operation of a department and its personnel, not just to build facilities and not just to keep the fanbase growing...it is all of the above, and probably more. RV's cumulative body of work no longer passes muster. JMO.

Edited October 13, 2015 by EagleMBA
proofread

[SilverEagle]

You can skip the following paragraph if you like and just answer the question at the bottom.

There are a lot of FIRE RV threads around here due solely to his failure to hire consistently successful head coaches. My question to our members here is, "What would you have done differently?". It isn't always easy to find the right person for the job. We hired a guy at my work a little over a year ago and my bosses have been majorly disappointed with him. His interview went fine but if they'd have known he'd be this bad, they would've never hired the guy. I looked back at my old posts and know I would've pretty much hired the same guys RV did for football so I'd have been fired myself I guess. I was over the moon when he took a chance on Dodge. All indications are that he made that hire on his own. After the fallout from that hire, he went and paid $40k to consultant Chuck Neinas to help choose a coach. This one even had the Hayden Fry seal of approval.  I don't know what he could've done differently other than predict the future and if he could do that he sure as hell wouldn't be working for us. I originally wanted Canales until we gave up 49 points to Monroe, then I wanted a defensive coach and Mac was the candidate that fit the criteria. I also thought it'd be great if we could keep Canales as OC and we did. I've gotten everything I've ever wanted in a football head coach from RV, the hires just didn't work out.

SO, the question is, of the legitimate candidates that we had in '06 and '10, who would you've hired instead and how has their career progressed since that missed hire?? Please refrain from the Leach and Harbaugh suggestions because those were never going to happen and if you're honest with yourself, you know that.

See, that's the problem. I don't think there were legitimate candidates. There was just one in each case. When DD was fired and the speculation about the next coach here was swirling around, the name of Don Carthel was brought to my attention. He had just resurrected the WT A&M football program and ran an offense very much like Todd Dodge. So I found his e-mail address (he was a state employee) and sent him an e-mail and asked him if he had been contacted about the job. His response "I'd love to hear from someone at NT about the job".  I did the same thing in 2010 with the very successful coaches at Abilene Christian and SHSU. Neither of them indicated that they knew of the coaching opening, and no one had contacted them about their interest in the job....if they even were.

So if RV said there was an "interview process" he was lying.

Any competent AD who has been on the job here for 10 years should NEVER have to hire a consultant to help him select a head football coach.  Since I don't know anything about basketball, I can't speak about that situation.

 

[VideoEagle]

See, that's the problem. I don't think there were legitimate candidates. There was just one in each case. When DD was fired and the speculation about the next coach here was swirling around, the name of Don Carthel was brought to my attention. He had just resurrected the WT A&M football program and ran an offense very much like Todd Dodge. So I found his e-mail address (he was a state employee) and sent him an e-mail and asked him if he had been contacted about the job. His response "I'd love to hear from someone at NT about the job".  I did the same thing in 2010 with the very successful coaches at Abilene Christian and SHSU. Neither of them indicated that they knew of the coaching opening, and no one had contacted them about their interest in the job....if they even were.

First of all, I don't believe a coach claiming they didn't know about a job opening that was listed in every major newspaper, ESPN, Fox Sports Southwest and multiple coach job websites and services. If they really didn't know, they aren't keeping up.  

So if RV said there was an "interview process" he was lying.

 What? So if the department doesn't interview someone's personal choice for candidate, they didn't conduct a process? I know you don't believe that. If you wrote "he didn't do as complete a process as I personally would have liked," yes, that is more accurate. 

Any competent AD who has been on the job here for 10 years should NEVER have to hire a consultant to help him select a head football coach.  Since I don't know anything about basketball, I can't speak about that situation.

Any AD who does NOT hire a consulting firm on a major sport head coach position is by definition incompetent.

1. the consultants go through the process multiple times a year, not a couple of times a decade. As a CEO I know put it, "you can't keep the expertise in house for jobs that only happen occasionally - either they are too expensive or they aren't current.  

2. they can keep the candidates anonymous which is a HUGE factor. You never want the idea you were considered for a job that you didn't accept to get out - never, ever, EVER. And you don't want a school to find out you showed interest in a job find out about your interest until you are ready to interview as too many things can go wrong. This is a senior position, not a job three promotions about summer intern that you can get to by just hanging around till others retire. 

3. the better consultants have contacts to find the best, most qualified candidates for each particular job situation. We don't know what they were told to look for, only the bare minimum information the state must release about the job opening. Now, getting the right information about the job to the consultants, THAT is on RV and it is very possible he didn't do this well. 

This isn't the 1970s. Organizations large and small use consultants to guide them on making decisions. Multiple controled, peer reviewed studies have shown this results in better decisions. 

[Cr1028]

Look, it's this simple.  His job is to lead our athletic department to success in all aspects.  That is what he gets paid, and rather handsomely, for.  Part of that is hiring coaches that will win.  I don't have to prove that I could have done a better job...I never took the salary to be North Texas AD so it's in no way, shape or form incumbent on me to prove I could do better.  This tired argument gets trotted out to defend coaches (and now AD's) far too often.

Imagine if I became Chief of Police in Dallas tomorrow.  If crime goes up, there is widespread officer misconduct, or case solvency percentages are in the teens those fall on me.  I would have no right, and should be fired ON THE SPOT if I tried this, to go before the city council and say "which crime prevention plan would you have tried??!!  Huh?"  I took the position, the salary and the responsibility.  If I fail to do my job then I deserve to be shown the door...simple.

That is a fair assessment Emmitt. The question is, should the city manager be fired as well for hiring you in the first place? 

[golfingomez]

I would have just hired Saban last time around...

[aztecskin]

That is a fair assessment Emmitt. The question is, should the city manager be fired as well for hiring you in the first place? 

If in addition to a rampant crime problem, people weren't getting paid, and other city services were poorly run, then yes. 

 

This argument is the same one the freshmen and friends of players trot out when people complain about 66-7 losses. 

 

[Eagle1855]

I would have just hired Saban last time around...

Agreed. This staff is completely useless.

[akriesman]

I'll Play:

In 2006 I admit that I wanted.......Todd Dodge :)

In 2010 I wanted either Leavitt, Francione or maybe Don Carthel.  

A lot of us were excited about TD.  But, I do remember a number of people that were against it.    Leavitt was my #1 choice in 2010.

BTW:  I admit that I was also high on the Benford hire.    

Edited October 13, 2015 by akriesman

[Cr1028]

 

2. they can keep the candidates anonymous which is a HUGE factor. You never want the idea you were considered for a job that you didn't accept to get out - never, ever, EVER. And you don't want a school to find out you showed interest in a job find out about your interest until you are ready to interview as too many things can go wrong. This is a senior position, not a job three promotions about summer intern that you can get to by just hanging around till others retire. 

This burned June Jones big time.

[Got5onIt]

Franchione was my pick and I still think he would've done some good things up here. 

[wardly]

If you look at the number of head football coaching openings  at years end, at least 20%, it become obvious that there is no magic formula for success in the selection process. Recent mid season firings at USC and Maryland come to mind. Todd Dodge could recruit, but was over his head as a college coach. Mac could coach, but could not recruit because, in my opinion, high school prospects were turned off by his outdated offense. One of the biggest changes I have seen in America during my 72 years is our rush to judgment without having enough information,regardless of the reason, to make an informed decision. I have no idea as to the interest,or lack thereof , for the position when Mac was hired. I assume he was the pick of the litter, although Firefighting Rick[whose opinion I respect] and others will disagree. I do know that when you budget for a head coach is $500,000 to $750,000, then your pool of candidates is limited.For example, U.La La pays Mark Hudspeth $1,000,000 per year. If we are able to offer that type of compensation then our pool naturally expands. In summary, instead of finger pointing , I would hope that differences could be put aside as we search for a coach that can recruit in Texas and has the type of offense that recruits want to play and fans want to watch. GO EAGLES!

[letsgiveacheer]

That is a fair assessment Emmitt. The question is, should the city manager be fired as well for hiring you in the first place? 

If the city manager's first Chief of Police was fired, then he hired a Fire Department Chief that could not do his job, and then his second Chief of Police was fired, then yes, I think any responsible city council would be showing the city manager the door.