Wow, this is a first....

Withers940 · September 28, 2015

I think people have heard every excuse under the stars as to why we can't.
I think people are f'n tired of excuses.

Amen, Excuses are like assholes, everyone has em

TheTastyGreek · September 28, 2015

I've been around about the same time as you (although I was a latecomer to gmg.com), and I agree that I have never seen negativity comparable to what I'm seeing now. As bad as the Dodge years were, most games at least provided a sense of promise--oftentimes, they played well, won the statistic battle, but still ended up on the losing side of the scoreboard. Barring multiple injuries, Dodge never trotted awful QBs out onto the field. Whatever the reason, the negativity during the Dodge years was not nearly as intense or widespread as it is right now.
The closest I've seen was the Dickey days right before they went on the 26-game conference winning streak.

I bolded and enlarged a sentence to expand on the comment. Disclaimer, this is my own opinion, and I'm definitely not trying to assume or imply that MG93-98 shares this assessment.

I think that during the Dodge years, there were two things that made the rage and frustration more limited and focused.

One, it seemed like we could and should be better, but stupid things or incapable people were holding us back from it. Replace Mendoza, stop that nonsense where everyone lines up and gives our formation away to the opposing defense, then looks over at the sideline to signal in a play (and gives the defense 10-15 seconds to adjust and space to counter our offensive alignment)... Don't kick a field goal in a game where you're down 12-16 points with less than 6 minutes to play. Don't call two timeouts just to screw up a special teams play. Don't leave undersized DBs in unsupported man coverage against future NFL receivers. Try sending a 5th (or 6th!) pass rusher once in a blue moon.

We were 10 loss teams that seemed like they ought to be at least mediocre, and the path to it seemed pretty clear and obvious. Plus, for most of that time, we had a new stadium to look forward to, and all that was supposed to come with it. There were a lot of problems that weren't easy to fix, like all of our low ceiling, undersized white skill position recruits from wealthy districts that had "learned how to win" but never seemed to apply those high school lessons at North Texas, or refusing to line up Eddrick Gilmore at his natural strength position of DE, or needing to start a guy like Charlie Brown at defensive tackle due to recruiting failures and injuries. And, as if to prove that point, Canales came in and won as many games in half a year as Dodge managed to win in any full season on his own.

So, even if you were furious and hopeless with Dodge (and I was!***), improvement seemed possible and ways to get there were clear. Whereas right now, as things stand and with what we seem to inevitably carry into next year... If DaMarcus Smith lays an egg, then I honestly have no clue how we get to a winning season before 2017, if then.

And the second thing that made the overall tone happier and more optimistic was that during the Dodge years, at least we had basketball. Before he started, we made the NCAA tournament. And the second game of basketball season during Dodge's first year, we followed the NCAA berth up by beating Oklahoma State, largely thanks to a true freshman recruit, and proved that the success wasn't just a fluke. And, every year that Dodge sucked and continued to suck, at least we had 20+ wins and usually either an upset win against a big school or a deep conference tournament run to look forward to (sometimes both!). No matter how terrible a Dodge team looked, we were 9 or fewer weeks away from sweet, sweet basketball.

Now, we suck at everything, and the basketball picture is even uglier and more hopeless than the football situation. You can't suck this bad at everything and without offering people at least the possibility of a fresh start, or this is what happens. When all people can see is a future filled with more despair, misery, and torture... This sort of rage is not an inappropriate reaction. I already put a post in another thread, so I won't rehash all of it. Basically, what is there to be optimistic about? What the hell are we supposed to look forward to? Even if you want to be a starry eyed optimist about our future as an athletics program, what the hell are you supposed to use as the fuel for your own self-deception?

*** - I was trying to link to the Todd Dodge Equivalent Futility List and the 4th Time's the Charm research project, but I'm having trouble getting links to insert and format correctly. FIX THE PROBLEM!

UPDATE: Problem fixed? I guess that the new software doesn't like to format well if you haven't loaded posts made after you started your comment, but before you posted it to the forum.

Edited September 28, 2015 by TheTastyGreek
Fewer, not less. Grammar is hard when you change thoughts mid-sentence and then don't proofread.

Mean_Green09 · September 28, 2015

I think people have heard every excuse under the stars as to why we can't.
I think people are f'n tired of excuses.

Me when I hear Mac's its hard or any one of one his excuses.

Grow a pair and fix the damn problem. Quit pretending like the 120+ other jobs in America arent tough either. Didnt hear Chad Morris complain.

TIgreen01 · September 28, 2015

I agree with the earlier post that this feels a whole lot like it did in 2001. Right after we had lost to ULM and fallen to 0-5. We sucked at basketball then, too. JJ hadn't yet coached a game and we had come off something like a 4 win basketball season the year before. We truly could be considered the worst athletic program in D1A at that time.

Then it magically turned around.

Maybe lightning will strike twice? We've got a few more games to get humiliated in, though, if we're going to match that awful start to 2001. :)

Cerebus · September 28, 2015

I agree with the earlier post that this feels a whole lot like it did in 2001. Right after we had lost to ULM and fallen to 0-5. We sucked at basketball then, too.

Except at that point we had hope in a young new AD that was promising us quarterly meetings...

Mean_Green09 · September 28, 2015

Is this still relevant?

MeanGreenHoops · September 28, 2015

@meanrob your point about writing the president is an interesting one. I've been on this site mostly from the beginning and on the one harry had before this. I really haven't posted that much over the years considering. As @TheTastyGreek said, there isn't anything to look forward to.

But I think what makes it worse for me and why I think you're point about the president writing being key, is that if something happened and Mac and Benford were canned, there isn't any faith that the current AD could make a decent hire, and we'd be stuck in another 5 years of this.

This is why, as you, for the 1st time ever I'm considering the same in writing to the president, and hoping for @Cerebus to help provide context to a campaign that might actually create a house cleaning. The problem is systemic. We need a do over. I posted on here one day that we'd be lucky if the UT system decided to shut us down for a year like what happened to UAB. Some people pointed out that couldn't happen because of logistics, but I was only making the point that we need a systemic change and we need people to care.

Just waiting this out and then getting in a new hire under the same leadership makes me lose hope. Maybe we'll get it right, but the past 15 years say otherwise.

Edited September 28, 2015 by MeanGreenHoops
Typos and clarity, plus missed typing in the UAB point

Cerebus · September 28, 2015

This is why as you, for the 1st time ever I'm considering the same in writing to the president, and hoping for @Cerebus to help provide context to a campaign that might actually create a house cleaning. The problem is systemic.

I believe this is the right approach. I'll post information.

DeepGreen · September 28, 2015

Amen, Excuses are like assholes, everyone has em

And UNT athletics has two of them.

untjim1995 · September 28, 2015

I still think Smatresk can only act if he can raise/receive $4-5 million from the alums/BOR. Its gonna take that much to reset this whole thing within the athletic department.

If by some miraculous chance this came to occur, RV should be gone tomorrow. The new AD can then determine what he wants to with McCarney and can be around to replace Benford. I call this a miraculous scenario because I just don't believe that the BOR is going to let Smatresk do any of this, except for Benford, who will still get replaced by RV, who will then get yet another extension...

The good news here--and it is good news for all of us that still follow this $hitstorm for some masochistic reason--is that the BOR will basically tell us by their actions and their inactions if anything here is going to change at the top of the AD. Its the same ol', same ol' if RV gets to stay. Its the same ol', same ol' if Mac can win 2 games or less in Year 5 and not even receive so much as a warning about turning things around in 2016. If either of these come to play here, I cannot even understand how any of us could give one more penny to this place for athletics. You can help fund scholarships for the general student body or the specific colleges within the university instead.

If the university's leadership and administration don't care to fund a winning program, its just a waste of our time and money to continue believing something different is possible anytime soon. I'd rather them just quit the charade and drop the sports than to give lip service to something that draws less than 2k for a home game in a 10,000 seat arena and under 5k for late season games in a 30,000 seat stadium.

letsgiveacheer · September 28, 2015

@meanrob your point about writing the president is an interesting one. I've been on this site mostly from the beginning and on the one harry had before this. I really haven't posted that much over the years considering. As @TheTastyGreek said, there isn't anything to look forward to.
But I think what makes it worse for me and why I think you're point about the president writing being key, is that if something happened and Mac and Benford were canned, there isn't any faith that the current AD could make a decent hire, and we'd be stuck in another 5 years of this.
This is why, as you, for the 1st time ever I'm considering the same in writing to the president, and hoping for @Cerebus to help provide context to a campaign that might actually create a house cleaning. The problem is systemic. We need a do over. I posted on here one day that we'd be lucky if the UT system decided to shut us down for a year like what happened to UAB. Some people pointed out that couldn't happen because of logistics, but I was only making the point that we need a systemic change and we need people to care.
Just waiting this out and then getting in a new hire under the same leadership makes me lose hope. Maybe we'll get it right, but the past 15 years say otherwise.

A point of clarification. We do not belong to the UT system. We are our own system but your point is valid. It is going to take a major re-do to right this situation but I frankly don't see it coming.

meangreen08 · September 28, 2015

I've been around about the same time as you (although I was a latecomer to gmg.com), and I agree that I have never seen negativity comparable to what I'm seeing now. As bad as the Dodge years were, most games at least provided a sense of promise--oftentimes, they played well, won the statistic battle, but still ended up on the losing side of the scoreboard. Barring multiple injuries, Dodge never trotted awful QBs out onto the field. Whatever the reason, the negativity during the Dodge years was not nearly as intense or widespread as it is right now.
The closest I've seen was the Dickey days right before they went on the 26-game conference winning streak.

good point on the Dodge years.

The thing about last year and this year, it's not the losing it how we're losing. 100% of this is coaching. These quotes about mac after these losses is just unacceptable.

Got5onIt · September 28, 2015

Amen, Excuses are like assholes, everyone has em

And elbows

Side Show Joe · September 29, 2015

I know my frustration comes from feeling that we are suffering from the same issues we had last season, which actually points to a bigger issue. That means Mac and his staff had an entire off season to address those issues, and either couldn't or chose not to. Either way, it is completely unacceptable, and means our leadership doesn't seem to be interested in making our team "Great".

Mac bashed the talent he inherited from Dodge calling those players small and slow, yet won the HOD with mostly those Dodge recruits. Dodge couldn't coach at the college level, but apparently he could recruit. Instead of fixing our program through strong recruiting and coaching, Mac has chosen to make excuses for his and ultimately our failures. Last season Mac took shots at our university and complained about how hard it is to recruit at North Texas. That's just garbage. Mac has more to sell recruits then any football coach in the history of this school. If he can't own up to his obligations and his mistakes, then it is certainly time for a change. Our coach must be dedicated to making this program "Great". Which brings me to Toledo....

Toledo is currently 3-0 with wins over a ranked Arkansas team, Iowa State, and a 37-7 thumping of Arkansas State. The rockets are positioned to earn a ranking if they win their next game against Ball State. Toledo might be the best G5 program this season. And guess what.... they hired their coach in 2013. Their coach Matt Campbell's record at Toledo is 19-9 over 2 season and 3 games, and they pay him about half of what Mac gets from us.

"You would be hard-pressed to find someone more passionate about his work than Matt Campbell.

Campbell, now entering his third season as the head football coach at the University of Toledo, describes himself this way.

“Relentless,” said Campbell. “Going from good to Great requires relentlessness. I want to be relentless in the pursuit of Greatness, and I want my staff and players to be the same way.” -Taken from his bio on the Toledo site

Can't we agree that our expectations should be as high as Toledo's?

Every week we hear Mac talk about needing to do things better and fixing the mistakes. That should not be the focus of a National Championship winning coach in his 5th season at North Texas. This program should be past that phase.

Ben Gooding · September 29, 2015

I know my frustration comes from feeling that we are suffering from the same issues we had last season, which actually points to a bigger issue. That means Mac and his staff had an entire off season to address those issues, and either couldn't or chose not to. Either way, it is completely unacceptable, and means our leadership doesn't seem to be interested in making our team "Great".
Mac bashed the talent he inherited from Dodge calling those players small and slow, yet won the HOD with mostly those Dodge recruits. Dodge couldn't coach at the college level, but apparently he could recruit. Instead of fixing our program through strong recruiting and coaching, Mac has chosen to make excuses for his and ultimately our failures. Last season Mac took shots at our university and complained about how hard it is to recruit at North Texas. That's just garbage. Mac has more to sell recruits then any football coach in the history of this school. If he can't own up to his obligations and his mistakes, then it is certainly time for a change. Our coach must be dedicated to making this program "Great". Which brings me to Toledo....
Toledo is currently 3-0 with wins over a ranked Arkansas team, Iowa State, and a 37-7 thumping of Arkansas State. The rockets are positioned to earn a ranking if they win their next game against Ball State. Toledo might be the best G5 program this season. And guess what.... they hired their coach in 2013. Their coach Matt Campbell's record at Toledo is 19-9 over 2 season and 3 games, and they pay him about half of what Mac gets from us.
"You would be hard-pressed to find someone more passionate about his work than Matt Campbell.
Campbell, now entering his third season as the head football coach at the University of Toledo, describes himself this way.
“Relentless,” said Campbell. “Going from good to Great requires relentlessness. I want to be relentless in the pursuit of Greatness, and I want my staff and players to be the same way.” -Taken from his bio on the Toledo site
Can't we agree that our expectations should be as high as Toledo's?
Every week we hear Mac talk about needing to do things better and fixing the mistakes. That should not be the focus of a National Championship winning coach in his 5th season at North Texas. This program should be past that phase.

I believe we are wasting our time. No change is happening because of Rick Villarreal. He has handcuffed us to Dan Mccarney so he himself could give himself a raise.

Look, 2013 was enjoyable. But was there a team knocking down Mccarney's door to lure him away that no one knows about? Rhetorical question. Answer is hellllll no there wasn't. So why extend the man an additional FIVE years!!?? A bonus and/or a raise would have been perfectly suitable. Prolonged contract extensions are for consistent and proven commodities that other people want. Dan Mccarney doesn't fit the bill of being consistent or proven and bet your ass no one wants him. BUT, rumor has it that if a coach gets an extension/raise then RV gets to line his pockets with more of our university's money. That is the only logical explanation. If a raise/bonus was only given after 2013 we could cut ties with McCarney right now with no strings attached. The state of the program is mind boggling, in all facets.

GreenFlag · September 29, 2015

I've been following since 1983 and I never recall it being this bad. I am pleased to see the overwhelming displeasure at our current state. I am glad we have stripped away the excuses (stadium, facilities, salaries, etc.) and I have hope for the first time ever that the BOR, Prez, etc. will have to improve the state of affairs.

keith · September 29, 2015

<snip>
Every week we hear Mac talk about needing to do things better and fixing the mistakes. That should not be the focus of a National Championship winning coach in his 5th season at North Texas. This program should be past that phase.

I can think of at least one mistake that needs to be fixed.

untjim1995 · September 29, 2015

I've been following since 1983 and I never recall it being this bad. I am pleased to see the overwhelming displeasure at our current state. I am glad we have stripped away the excuses (stadium, facilities, salaries, etc.) and I have hope for the first time ever that the BOR, Prez, etc. will have to improve the state of affairs.

It was worse when we hired a high school coach the first time in 1991 to take over a I-aa team that was so poor, it wasn't even funny. A crowd at Fouts that topped 10k was considered just amazing during those Parker years. We just didn't have anyone who cared back then. I've stated before, but I've seen our low point in person, on the sidelines, watching us play in front of about 150 people in the second half of a blowout win over Nicholls State in a mid-November home game at night that got us to 3 wins in 1992.

We are mad right now because we have an awesome stadium, better facilities than we have ever had, and the best conference we have ever been a part of in 40+ years. And we are just as bad right now as we have been for most of the seasons since we moved back up in 1995. But the fans don't make any difference here--the only thing that does is the view of athletics at the administrative level--unless the BOR and the chancellor care enough to give the president the ability to clean house, its all a moot point. And that's assuming the president really does care about this, beyond lip service, which none of us knows for sure.

Harry · September 29, 2015

Damn good post Harrington and welcome to the board.

Mean_Green09 · September 29, 2015

Many of us - I'd say, most of us - went to North Texas and earned degrees from there. We are not a school blessed with tens of thousands of "t-shirt fans." If you are a North Texas fan, you pretty much have a direct, personal tie back to the school.
We swilled beer and chased skirt together at The Flying Tomato, O-tays, Rick's Place, Riprocks, and the like. We watched the albino squirrel frolic. We illegally parked in every lot from one end of the campus to the other having awakened five minutes before class. We made our semi-weekly drive through the beer barn for study syrup on the way home from those classes. And, we sat in creaky, old Fouts Fields every autumn watching bad football, being dive bombed by crickets, praying that the toilets therein would reasonably flush from time to time.
Therefore, it is probably correct to admit that when our football team loses it is disheartening in a more heartsick way than it is to your closet variety Texas or Oklahoma t-shirt rack fan. Over the decades, we have seen a lot of poor football, bad football, awful football out of our beloved school.
With McCarney, however, now, it just feels different. This guy was supposed to be a pro. Was supposed to be the guy with skins on the wall. Was supposed to lead us out of the decades of malaise into an era of, at minimum, bowl eligibility season after season. In short, get us up to the mid-major version of what Texas Tech-like schools are.
Someone is doing that at Rice. It had been done for the better part of a decade at Tulsa. TCU is decidedly better. Baylor. Houston. These school, very regional to us, whose programs were once as crappy and downtrodden as ours, have somehow stabilized and even progressed over the last 15 years.
It is becoming clearer and clearer that, whatever McCarney's gridiron bona fides were said to be, we have not stabilized or progressed. If that has made many here more seemingly more venomous, it is only because the sting of losing is on the verge of becoming something even worse for the athletic department - apathy.
This is not really the time for McCarney and the players to have a "circle the wagons" mentality against the few supporters it has. Nor the athletic department. Yet, that indeed seems what they are hell bent on doing.
Those of us who defended them, one and all, at one point or another, are just tired of it. Although the 2013 ride was fun, it looks as though when all is said and done, the program will be back at the 1 to 2 wins a season plateau McCarney inherited from Todd Dodge. And, sorry - that's just not the bill of goods we were sold with and by this guy

They can blame us - and others - for not "filling Apogee." But, look...this isn't an SEC school with a long tradition of winning to the extent that people sell it out win, lose, or draw. This is a school that long neglected athletics. It needs alumni to show up, to be sure. But, it takes more than just saying "show up or we'll be bad."
Win.
We are not in a competitive juggernaut of a college football conference. Five years worth have recruits have been signed for this level of competition, and we aren't even close to competing. We are not blind. There is enough football around these here parts to where we can tell the difference between sh*t and Shinola when it comes to the product on the field. We are nowhere near Shinola, and everyone from the casual fan to the people running the football program and athletic department know it.
Five years is a long time. A long time. The C-USA, as currently comprised, is not near the minefield that the Big 12 was when McCarney led Iowa State into semi-respectability. And, so, it is doubly confounding to many of us that we could fall to earth so fully and quickly after the 2013 season.
It's just not excusable, or defendable, anymore...and, so, many of us are a little pissed off about it.

About as solid as they come

untcampbell · September 29, 2015

How many Fake names is this guy going to use? I love your work, man. It should be rightfully acknowledged, not posted under an alias of an alias.

GMG

Cerebus · September 29, 2015

Many of us - I'd say, most of us - went to North Texas and earned degrees from there.
<deletia>
It's just not excusable, or defendable, anymore...and, so, many of us are a little pissed off about it.

Holy Shit. That post made sense. Did you finally get on medication? Keep taking them.

Damn good post Harrington and welcome to the board.

It's TheFakeLonnieFinch.

Mean Green 93-98 · September 29, 2015

Love me some FakeLonnieFinch/HarringtonFishSmeller!

NT93 · September 29, 2015

If its hard to recruit here, How the hell does UTEP do it?

UTEP recruits kids to Denton???

I kid, I kid.

UNTexas · September 29, 2015

utep has struggled like us over the years.

The point is we shouldn't struggle. EP and UTEP have a bad reputation because if you aren't from there it really sucks. I lived there, it sucks. Denton isn't a hard sell. EP is, I'd never let my kids go there from a long list of reasons.

The moral of the story is UNT doesn't hold anyone accountable for anything.