Can someone explain the reason that RV still has a job at North Texas?

MeanGreenTeeth · September 27, 2015

Outside of a few bright spots that popped up here and there (and only briefly) UNT sports across the board have been pitiful under his tenure. Arguably, the biggest success was the football program he inherited that earned 4 straight conference titles. He has shown no ability to improve the status of the program. It's crystal clear that he is in over his head, yet there is no indication that he is on his way out. Why is that? Is he just personally popular with the administration and boosters? Is it just a general sense of apathy towards UNT sports that has kept him under the radar?

KingDL1 · September 27, 2015

He has a little posse that protects him, they are worried about losing access like flying with the team to away games and losing their constant brown nosing from RV. Maybe some advertising and other things as well.

UNT90 · September 27, 2015

Outside of a few bright spots that popped up here and there (and only briefly) UNT sports across the board have been pitiful under his tenure. Arguably, the biggest success was the football program he inherited that earned 4 straight conference titles. He has shown no ability to improve the status of the program. It's crystal clear that he is in over his head, yet there is no indication that he is on his way out. Why is that? Is he just personally popular with the administration and boosters? Is it just a general sense of apathy towards UNT sports that has kept him under the radar?

he has cultivated 15 big donors in 15 years. And they think he is the bees knees. Like King said, they don't care about winning, just yucking it up with RV over drinks on the square. There really is no other explanation.

The only hope is that President Smatresk actually cares about athletics (I think he does), understands that we have let far more money walk away than the 15 have given (depending on whether he believes RV when RV lies and tells him how hard it is to raise money with 100k alumni within a 100 mile radius), and can overcome the personal relationships RV has cultivated to ensure that he never loses his career job (unlikely, unless the BOR has finally decided they care about athletics. Extremely unlikely).

So, ya, the chances of winning the lottery are about the same as a house cleaning in the AD. A house cleaning that is 6 years overdue.

How there are any fans left of this shit product is a major miracle?

Edited September 27, 2015 by UNT90

Green Mean · September 28, 2015

he has cultivated 15 big donors in 15 years. And they think he is the bees knees. Like King said, they don't care about winning, just yucking it up with RV over drinks on the square. There really is no other explanation.
The only hope is that President Smatresk actually cares about athletics (I think he does), understands that we have let far more money walk away than the 15 have given (depending on whether he believes RV when RV lies and tells him how hard it is to raise money with 100k alumni within a 100 mile radius), and can overcome the personal relationships RV has cultivated to ensure that he never loses his career job (unlikely, unless the BOR has finally decided they care about athletics. Extremely unlikely).
So, ya, the chances of winning the lottery are about the same as a house cleaning in the AD. A house cleaning that is 6 years overdue.
How there are any fans left of this shit product is a major miracle?

I've seen this written on the board quite a bit and while I don't disagree that could be some of the case I think at some point the BOR is ultimately responsible in righting this ship. While the 15 donors may be RV's good buddy I'm pretty sure they'd rather see their money donated/invested resulting into a better product than being buds with RV and having an awful product. Again I don't really walk in those circles but to me it just seems things aren't being done because as a university we just don't effing 'want' anything to be done.

UNT90 · September 28, 2015

I've seen this written on the board quite a bit and while I don't disagree that could be some of the case I think at some point the BOR is ultimately responsible in righting this ship. While the 15 donors may be RV's good buddy I'm pretty sure they'd rather see their money donated/invested resulting into a better product than being buds with RV and having an awful product. Again I don't really walk in those circles but to me it just seems things aren't being done because as a university we just don't effing 'want' anything to be done.

RV tells them it's not his fault and places blame anywhere and everywhere else but himself. We have gotten a dose of it on the podcasts. They buy it. You would think at some point some of these smart business types would realize that RV is responsible for the things he is telling them aren't his responsibility.

But personal manipulation is a powerful, powerful tool. Don't underestimate it.

People don't like to admit they are wrong about people they think they know.

Mike Jackson · September 28, 2015

I would not be pessimistic. An empty stadium by mid to late October speaks volumes. We need an AD to reach out to fans. We only need 25k devoted fans to turn the corner. But the AD needs to come hard and say we are not interested in just getting by and squeezing out a conference champion once every 5 years when the conference happens to be terrible. I want a Chip Kelly or anyone with local ties and FBS level accomplishments.

UNT90 · September 28, 2015

I would not be pessimistic. An empty stadium by mid to late October speaks volumes. We need an AD to reach out to fans. We only need 25k devoted fans to turn the corner. But the AD needs to come hard and say we are not interested in just getting by and squeezing out a conference champion once every 5 years when the conference happens to be terrible. I want a Chip Kelly or anyone with local ties and FBS level accomplishments.

look, an empty Superpit hasn't mattered one damn bit.

UNT doesn't care about athletics. I wish I had figured this out before investing in club seats. One of the worst investments I have ever made.

Edited September 28, 2015 by UNT90

MeanGreenTexan · September 28, 2015

Outside of a few bright spots that popped up here and there (and only briefly) UNT sports across the board have been pitiful under his tenure. Arguably, the biggest success was the football program he inherited that earned 4 straight conference titles. He has shown no ability to improve the status of the program. It's crystal clear that he is in over his head, yet there is no indication that he is on his way out. Why is that? Is he just personally popular with the administration and boosters? Is it just a general sense of apathy towards UNT sports that has kept him under the radar?

Were you here 10 years ago? If so, and you look at all of the facilities that are sitting on the old golf course & old Liberty Christian campus, you'd know.

i think it's painfully clear it's not because he keeps winning products on the gridiron or hardwood. Fortunately for him, football & basketball results aren't the major measuring stick for him. Unfortunately for us football & basketball fans, results are not the major measuring stick.

You asked why... That's why. Like it or not. Don't shoot the messenger y'all.

MeanMag · September 28, 2015

The truth, or so I am told, lies in Rick's contract. In it, there is a clause that gives him an extension and a pay raise every time a coach gets extension and pay raise. Guess who gives out extensions an pay raises for coaches (but have to be okay'd by administration)? That's right, it's Rick V.

Who would sign up to a contract like that from the administration? One that doesn't particularly care about athletics or reading contracts (or accounting statements from the State of Texas, apparently).

Who loses? Certainly not RV, or his coaches.

Mike Jackson · September 28, 2015

look, an empty Superpit has mattered one damn bit.
UNT doesn't care about athletics. I wish I had figured this out before investing in club seats. One of the worst investments I have ever made.

I think you are wrong. They definitely don't care about basketball. Texas is Football country no school in the state has done much of anything significant in division I basketball other than U. of Houston and UT. If we had the next Lebron James in our back yard right now he leaves the state to go to college most likely. Larry Brown at SMU and UT would have slim hopes. And without Larry Brown those slim hopes at SMU go away instantly. UNT does care about football. But they don't want to pay the money to get the coach that could turn it around. A coach with a big time resume is the ONLY sure way to turn the program around. Yes we could get lucky and hire a young up and coming coach who goes on to lead a national power but that is unlikely. Mac's age was another reason not to hire him in this situation. Had Todd Dodge been somewhat of a success and moved on to better things Mac would have be the perfect candidate. But you don't hire Mac and pay him and his staff decent if you don't care about football. You also don't build a brand new stadium when you could renovated Fouts Field for less money and should your alumni on a "home" game in the Cotton Bowl every year during the State Fair.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Mike Jackson

GrayEagle · September 28, 2015

RV is still here because everything that you see south of 35E (except Victory Hall and the cafeteria) Rick had a hand in. He has created a dozen million dollar plus donors and a $20 million donor in Apogee. I go back to Athletic Director Theron Fouts and no one else has come close to those numbers. Of course, a million today is the equivalent of maybe a quarter-million in a lot of those years.

Having said that, facilities and hiring basketball coach Johnny Jones are his only pluses in the three major revenue sports. Tennis, golf and cross country have been better than average but they're not revenue producers. Hayden Fry didn't hire himself but he did hire arguably our best basketball coach...Bill Blakeley. Theron Fouts hired Texas HOF football coach Odus Mitchell. That's pretty much it for AD accomplishments.

I do think that it's time for RV to make the hires that can produce at least a .500 record after three years and do not extend a contract until the second such year. If he can't do that by the end of his contract then he should be gone. This should be Benford's make or break year. Next year should be McCarney's. This should be Canales last year.

It's been 68 years since I was a freshman at North Texas and I've seen somewhere north of 300 football games in person. I'm getting close to the only one left who saw the first and last game at Fouts. Last week was probably my most depressing moment. I'll be at homecoming but if DaMarcus Smith hasn't played by then it'll be my last game in person until Mac is gone. I've been advocating staying the course and let's see if things improve but no more will I come see boring football. My wife can't physically endure a lot of walking and climbing and neither of us are excited about the current brand of North Texas football. I love my school but there comes a time when effort does not equal reward. Maybe I'll see a great turnaround but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

CMJ · September 28, 2015

I think you are wrong. They definitely don't care about basketball. Texas is Football country no school in the state has done much of anything significant in division I basketball other than U. of Houston and UT.

UTEP won a national title.

KingDL1 · September 28, 2015

Were you here 10 years ago? If so, and you look at all of the facilities that are sitting on the old golf course & old Liberty Christian campus, you'd know.
i think it's painfully clear it's not because he keeps winning products on the gridiron or hardwood. Fortunately for him, football & basketball results aren't the major measuring stick for him. Unfortunately for us football & basketball fans, results are not the major measuring stick.
You asked why... That's why. Like it or not. Don't shoot the messenger y'all.

That is not completely true, but ten years ago Victory hall, the Cafeteria, the practice fields and the Athletic Center were all there. The master plan was in place before RV to move everything south of 35. So none of this was his brainchild. So more than anything RV had fortunate timing to take credit for. Liberty Christian was already bought. So pretty much everything was there minus Stadium and the alumni pavilion. Also the Hotel was still standing.

Mike Jackson · September 28, 2015

With the first all Black starting lineup. I wasn't even a gleam in my daddy's eye back then and my oldest son is recruiting age now. That is ancient history, that lis almost like expecting a football recruit to be interested in UNT because of Mean Joe.

CMJ · September 28, 2015

With the first all Black starting lineup. I wasn't even a gleam in my daddy's eye back then and my oldest son is recruiting age now. That is ancient history, that lis almost like expecting a football recruit to be interested in UNT because of Mean Joe.

You were bringing up Houston being relevant, which is also ancient history. Just taking your lead.

I am a basketball guy, so I don't think it was that long ago (and i wasn't born till the end of the 1970's), but for most people if it happened in the pre-shot clock, or even pre-3 point era...it's ancient history.

Ben Gooding · September 28, 2015

RV is still here because everything that you see south of 35E (except Victory Hall and the cafeteria) Rick had a hand in. He has created a dozen million dollar plus donors and a $20 million donor in Apogee. I go back to Athletic Director Theron Fouts and no one else has come close to those numbers. Of course, a million today is the equivalent of maybe a quarter-million in a lot of those years.
Having said that, facilities and hiring basketball coach Johnny Jones are his only pluses in the three major revenue sports. Tennis, golf and cross country have been better than average but they're not revenue producers. Hayden Fry didn't hire himself but he did hire arguably our best basketball coach...Bill Blakeley. Theron Fouts hired Texas HOF football coach Odus Mitchell. That's pretty much it for AD accomplishments.
I do think that it's time for RV to make the hires that can produce at least a .500 record after three years and do not extend a contract until the second such year. If he can't do that by the end of his contract then he should be gone. This should be Benford's make or break year. Next year should be McCarney's. This should be Canales last year.
It's been 68 years since I was a freshman at North Texas and I've seen somewhere north of 300 football games in person. I'm getting close to the only one left who saw the first and last game at Fouts. Last week was probably my most depressing moment. I'll be at homecoming but if DaMarcus Smith hasn't played by then it'll be my last game in person until Mac is gone. I've been advocating staying the course and let's see if things improve but no more will I come see boring football. My wife can't physically endure a lot of walking and climbing and neither of us are excited about the current brand of North Texas football. I love my school but there comes a time when effort does not equal reward. Maybe I'll see a great turnaround but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

Facilities? You talkin' bout facilities.

Mike Jackson · September 28, 2015

Only brought up Houston cause their players had some NBA success and a few people in their 30s can remember those players. But none the less the main idea stays the same Texas is football country and coaching basketball here is 5 timea harder than football. CUSA has a rich basketball history but a lot of those schools are no longer in the conference. La Tech had Karl Malone a long time ago and a great women's program a while back too. ODU and WKU are the only programs that register on the recent basketball radar. ODU success was minor. WKU made a somewhat recent run in the NCAA but they were Sun Belt at the time.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Mike Jackson

greenminer · September 28, 2015

"WKU made a somewhat decent run but..."

That's all I needed. Thanks for your input, tho.

MeanGreenTexan · September 28, 2015

That is not completely true, but ten years ago Victory hall, the Cafeteria, the practice fields and the Athletic Center were all there. The master plan was in place before RV to move everything south of 35. So none of this was his brainchild. So more than anything RV had fortunate timing to take credit for. Liberty Christian was already bought. So pretty much everything was there minus Stadium and the alumni pavilion. Also the Hotel was still standing.

I guess I should have said 12-15 years ago. Better?

When I was a student (2000-2005), Rick V was there. I was playing golf on that course and Liberty Christian School was still meeting in all of those buildings. All of it was absolutely Rick's brainchild.

VideoEagle · September 28, 2015

NT simply HAD to make a dedicated focus on facilities starting in the mid-2000s. Poor facilities was what kept us out of CUSA the first time - SMU's opposition didn't hurt nearly as much as our facilities. Once facilities were improved, the overall athletic budget needed to be improved and it has. Our current facilities and budget put us well above average for our conference and far above our old Sunbelt cohort. The foundation of our program had to be fixed before you can build a consistent winner. I can buy into the idea that part of the cost of improving facilities and budget means less attention is paid to wins and loses. You can't fix everything at once. Football in the early 2000's showed that more wins and loses without budgets and facilities can't be sustained.

But now, our facilities and our budgets ARE much better. Yes, RV was instrumental in the overall growth of both. Wins and loses should count now. They must count now. And it's up to RV to see that they do count.

NTXCoog · September 28, 2015

UNT does care about football. But they don't want to pay the money to get the coach that could turn it around. A coach with a big time resume is the ONLY sure way to turn the program around. Yes we could get lucky and hire a young up and coming coach who goes on to lead a national power but that is unlikely. Mac's age was another reason not to hire him in this situation. Had Todd Dodge been somewhat of a success and moved on to better things Mac would have be the perfect candidate. But you don't hire Mac and pay him and his staff decent if you don't care about football.

I don't know if the coach with a big time resume is the sure way to turn it around. I guess that depends on what you mean by big time resume. If you mean coaches with lots of wins as a head coach at the FBS level, I think you're going down the wrong path. Most of the coaches with those types of records that aren't in the bigger conferences or don't have a job at all are on the downside of their career. See Franchione, Coker, etc. No doubt those were some great coaches, but they're either missing the fire in their bellies or the game has passed them by.

The key is getting the right up and comer that has a sufficient resume. That doesn't mean a high school coach, even a legendary one, unless they've also picked up some experience at the FBS level. It means a coordinator at a major school. If that fails, it means a head coach that has dominated at FCS level. 3 of UH's last 4 coaches fall into those categories and have been wildly successful (I guess I should hold off on praising the current coach though until he's proven more). The only one who hasn't turned out was an internal hire that was a special teams coordinator. Wrong choice.

But it's not just the head coach. You have to make sure you have the budget for coordinators and position coaches, and you have to have an AD willing to force quality assistants on the head coach instead of allowing the head coach to just pick his buddies. On top of picking the wrong head coach resume with UH's Levine, we also went real cheap on assistants. The results showed. Our OC was forced to resign after his first game at UH. We had poor OCs the rest of Levine's tenure. With Briles, our AD forced out his strength & conditioning coach friend and forced out his defensive coaches. The current UH coach has a very nice assistants budget (at least for a G5 school) and a very experienced staff that will help with his new head coach transition. If you want the coaches with complete resumes, this is where you hire them. They can provide the technique and recruiting to support the head coach with the fire and passion.

I think those are the keys. It's a slightly riskier path than an old ball coach with a resume, but the potential is so much higher. You just have to make sure you do the proper vetting, make sure they meet the minimum standards, and make sure you assemble a solid staff to minimize the risk of a total collapse.

GrandGreen · September 28, 2015

RV was a questionable hire from the beginning. He has demonstrated monumental survival skills if nothing else. I do think that the shrinking band of his supporters are much too heavily swayed by facilities and a handful of heavy donators. Yes, he looks great on those accomplishments when compared to NT's bleak history of support. However, IMO it is highly likely that many others could have accomplish the same or better over the period RV has been in control. It is really fairly easy to determine, just look at peer programs and compare their donation levels and facilities. I also think it is fair to see how NT's greatest facility Apogee was financed before handing out too many accolades. Those student fees that peer programs are using for operating expenses at NT are largely tied up in debt service for decades.

Then there are the pesky problems of athletic performance in the big three sports. If I remember correctly, RV has hired two football coaches Dodge and McCarney. His basketball coach hires are Jones, Benford, Stephenson, Aston, Petersen and Mitchell. Jones proved to be an excellent hire and Aston was a one year wonder. Stephenson, Dodge, and Petersen were without question disasters. McCarney and Benford are still here serving out too long contracts and the results thus far are not good.

Overall in the so called non-revenue sports, I think it fair to say that RV has made vast improvements. I personally think this is his best accomplishment.

All this history is informative, but the real question is can RV improve NT's athletic situation better than a new athletic director. Looking at the direction of the three major sports, I think it is time for a change at the top.

KingDL1 · September 28, 2015

I guess I should have said 12-15 years ago. Better?
When I was a student (2000-2005), Rick V was there. I was playing golf on that course and Liberty Christian School was still meeting in all of those buildings. All of it was absolutely Rick's brainchild.

Really it was on the master plan and the Victory hall was all ready funded before RV was hired? Victory hall was finished in 2004 construction was started in late 2002 and or early 2003. So yeah he was there but this project was planned well in advance of RV. Did he have a hand in it yeah it comes with his job but clearly not his creation. RV did not place us in the Sun Belt either things were happening before he got there, he did not initiate many of the pieces that were already in the works. He did bring back tailgating.

Edited September 28, 2015 by KingDL1

Caw Caw · September 28, 2015

What you all are trying to say is:

"Although we are grateful for the new and improved facilities North Texas has acquired under your tenure, that is no longer the direction we intend to go. Now that we have the facilities, we need someone who can bring in and cultivate coaching talent in order to fill these stadiums, and replace the costs of our investment. You've given us a great direction to go, and we've made leaps and bounds everywhere but on the field. Unfortunately, we need to be improving our brand and product on the field. Thank you for helping us get to this phase of our growth, but as an institution, we're moving on to the next step. Thank you for your time at the University of North Texas..."

"Oh, and Rick, Go Mean Green"