Too Many Law Students?

[Greenrex]

"TEN months after graduation, only 60 percent of the law school class of 2014 had found full-time long-term jobs that required them to pass the bar exam.

Even that improvement over the class of 2013 (a 57 percent employment rate) came with three asterisks: Last year, the American Bar Association changed the job-reporting rules to give law schools an extra month for the class of 2014 to find jobs; graduates employed in law-school-funded positions count in the employment rate; and the number of jobs that require bar passage fell from 2013 to 2014."

Here's the article...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/25/opinion/too-many-law-students-too-few-legal-jobs.html?emc=edit_th_20150825&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=61843218&_r=0

 

[Cerebus]

Know issue for a long time.  Out school of law is about a decade too late in opening.

[KRAM1]

The warning signs of this have been around a long time.  Really no news.  As to "Out" law school it does aim at a different segment of the law population and is working to provide a much more cost effective law education.  We will see how that works out after a few graduating classes.  But, a lower cost, urban based law school in the Dallas metroplex seems doable and has the potential for success.  We all wait to see.

One thing many law schools and colleges in general fail to do a very good job of is I the area of placement services and career counseling.  If the UNT Law School put some significant resources into that area perhaps success for both the school and its newly minted law grads would follow.  Hopefully, UNT is doing just that.

Edit: Funny...someone's ego is either butt hurt or folks just are being testy...pretty funny.  Maybe it's that new "follower" I got recently.  Ever since I got that notice from GMG.Com it seems a bunch of negatives are appearing.  Isn't it odd?  

Edited August 27, 2015 by KRAM1

[oldguystudent]

Isn't the first thing the law school wants to focus on accreditation?  Aren't the first students going on the mere hope that their JDs will actually hold water upon graduation?

[Cerebus]

Isn't the first thing the law school wants to focus on accreditation?  Aren't the first students going on the mere hope that their JDs will actually hold water upon graduation?

Most do, "out" doesn't seem that worried about it.  

[KRAM1]

Most do, "out" doesn't seem that worried about it.  

 If you talk to the Dean of "out" school, you will find they are working diligently daily on accreditation and do feel confident in gaining such. I have not talked to any of the students so I can't speak to their "stress" over the accreditation issue, but I have to assume that if they were that worried about it they would not have enrolled in the first place.

Now that the school is a reality, shouldn't folks be supporting it instead of finding ways to find fault?  While it is in Dallas and is the "Dallas" UNT law school, it does carry the UNT system banner of which UNT Denton is the main cog.  A successful law school will go a long way to increase the positive perception of people in general regarding UNT.  Most, I would hazard a guess, have no clue what part of the overall system it belongs with, and frankly, they probably don't care.  It is all UNT to them.  A rising tide floats all boats here folks.

And, before someone here gets butt hurt again, this reply is aimed at no one nor is it disagreeing with anyone.  In fact I agree here...most do not seem worried, as stated, in obtaining accreditation as they are working diligently daily on obtaining same.

 

[Eastwood Eagle]

The short and only answer is yes. Too many law schools and too many students given the number of legal jobs that exist. UNT Law remains a terrible decision. 

 

Kram: I can assure you that UNT's law school is not bolstering UNT's general reputation among the Texas legal community. Quite the opposite. 

Edited August 31, 2015 by Eastwood Eagle

[KRAM1]

The short and only answer is yes. Too many law schools and too many students given the number of legal jobs that exist. UNT Law remains a terrible decision. 

 

Kram: I can assure you that UNT's law school is not bolstering UNT's general reputation among the Texas legal community. Quite the opposite. 

Perhaps they are jealous that a school is  looking at an entirely different demographic and bursting some of the false elitist bubbles surrounding some of those making up the Texas legal community.  And, perhaps they don't like the competition. Same sort of reaction UNT gets when it bests these other elite attitudes in other areas as well.

No one, at this point, knows how the UNT Law School will develop nor what the future holds.  We will all see soon enough.  

[GreenMachine]

Way too many law students. 

Way, way too many lawyers. 

Way, way, way, too many frivolous lawsuits for the leeches and leeches to be. 

[Eastwood Eagle]

 

Perhaps they are jealous that a school is  looking at an entirely different demographic and bursting some of the false elitist bubbles surrounding some of those making up the Texas legal community.  And, perhaps they don't like the competition. Same sort of reaction UNT gets when it bests these other elite attitudes in other areas as well.

No one, at this point, knows how the UNT Law School will develop nor what the future holds.  We will all see soon enough.  

I'm not sure of the  "different demographic" that you refer to. In any case:

If you are talking about a "different demographic" of students then the law schools in Texas do a fine job with diversity. It is a misnomer that law school classes are filled with rich kids. Vast majority of law students rely on scholarships and loans to pay for law school, not daddy. UNT Law is not necessary to allow diverse students a chance of attending law school because cost will be covered with loans are preferably a scholarship which provides any student an opportunity to attend law school in Texas. 

If you are mean "different demographic" to represent targeting different branches of society for legal services, I can assure you that the Texas law schools are already doing this. Most law students are not going to be working for "evil corporations" and will be servicing local businesses or doing small family, personal, or criminal law. UNT Law is necessary to service the latter. 

If by "different demographic" you meant pro bono for low income, many top students at top schools see public interest law as a calling and flock to it in high numbers, again UNT Law is not necessary for this. 

I do not think a false elitist jealousy bubble has anything to do with a common sense and reality based view point that UNT Law is not necessary and will straddle its students with debts with little to know job prospects to pay off the debt. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Eastwood Eagle

[oldguystudent]

For the record, I truly, truly don't care one way or the other whether UNT has a law school or not.  

Aside from any UNT related issues, it does seem that there are a lot of kids graduating from existing laws schools and getting little more than paralegal work that doesn't even cover their loan payments.

UNT school of law of no UNT school of law, I would discourage my child from pursuing this career.

[KRAM1]

Way too many law students. 

Way, way too many lawyers. 

Way, way, way, too many frivolous lawsuits for the leeches and leeches to be. 

yes, yes and yes.

But, there are too many "lots of students" graduating with degrees in fields where they struggle to find meaningful and successful employment in their degree field.  We have had that discussion, yes? I was discussing the fact that the UNT Law School, in my opinion, will be a plus for the system overall, that they are pointing at a different demographic of student and that, with a decent placement program UNT law grads might have a much better shot at employment after graduation.

Yes, Sir, way way too many "Hammers" out there leeching off those who are out for a quick buck and think screwing someone or some company out of damages that are either non-existent, way more minor than reported or simply in an amount way higher than necessary.  These sort of lawyers are blood sucking leeches for sure.  Tort reform anyone?  How about doing away with the sort of engagements where the plaintiff pays nothing unless their lawyer wins?  Watch that cut down dramatically on this crap.

OK...back to UNT Law.....

[oldguystudent]

 

But, there are too many "lots of students" graduating with degrees in fields where they struggle to find meaningful and successful employment in their degree field.

That used to be ok when you were young and when I was young.  There were plenty of viable career paths for those who simply held a bachelor's degree in any discipline.  It simply isn't that way today.  One need choose one's pursuits carefully.  The stakes are higher than they've ever been.  

College used to provide its graduates with a certain level of certainty.  

Today, it provides its students with an opportunity to lay it all on red 23 and hope that career is still viable 4 years from now, 10 years from now, and if one is exceptionally fortunate, through retirement age.

[JesseMartin]

I skimmed the responses pretty fast and don't think anyone mentioned this; apologies if they did.

Here's something that skews that statistic: there are a lot of legal jobs that don't require you to pass the bar, depending on what state you're in.  If you're doing a lot of legal writing, research, contracts, etc., then you can work under a senior attorney and they don't require you to have passed the bar.  I'm not sure what the percentage is, but it would be interesting to have a complete study that involves the percentage who go into jobs like that to see if it's as "doom and gloom" as this (and MANY more articles) makes everything seem for graduating law students.  So of the 40% not going into jobs that require a passing grade on the bar exam, if most or all of them are just taking jobs that require a JD (or going on to earn an LLM or PhD), then there isn't reason to worry...there are a few that specifically seek out jobs like that because they don't want to bother with the bar exam right away, if ever!

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

I think a better headline for this article would be "there were too many law students." The flooded market right now is from around 2008. This year's law school applicant pool was the lowest it has been in over 40 years if I remember correctly. I go to A&M's law school in Fort Worth and they are shutting the evening program down after being the only evening program in the metroplex for a long time. Their evening class this year was down to 23 students while UNT law took 60 or so evening students. I suppose for that demographic of folks who work and are just getting their degree to advance their career; UNT Law could take the mantle from what Wesleyan was doing. It won't get you regarded as a highly prestigious law school but I do think there is a place for that. Other than that, the timing was terrible to open a law school. Part of the reason Texas has done decently as far as the law market compared to nationwide is the relatively low number of law schools. Texas has 10 total law schools (9 accredited 1 unaccredited) while California has something like 40 law schools, with many unaccredited schools which have been unaccredited for a long time. 

I skimmed the responses pretty fast and don't think anyone mentioned this; apologies if they did.

Here's something that skews that statistic: there are a lot of legal jobs that don't require you to pass the bar, depending on what state you're in.  If you're doing a lot of legal writing, research, contracts, etc., then you can work under a senior attorney and they don't require you to have passed the bar.  I'm not sure what the percentage is, but it would be interesting to have a complete study that involves the percentage who go into jobs like that to see if it's as "doom and gloom" as this (and MANY more articles) makes everything seem for graduating law students.  So of the 40% not going into jobs that require a passing grade on the bar exam, if most or all of them are just taking jobs that require a JD (or going on to earn an LLM or PhD), then there isn't reason to worry...there are a few that specifically seek out jobs like that because they don't want to bother with the bar exam right away, if ever!

These numbers are definitely skewed because 1) not everyone reports like any survey and 2) like you said, there are a lot of folks doing "legal work" so to speak but not attorneys necessarily. There are Oil & Gas Landmen, folks in compliance departments for companies, etc. which like you said don't require bar passage but are "JD preferred." Don't get me wrong, its bad. I just don't think it's as bad as some articles say it is. However, articles like these and word of mouth are what is helping correct the market. Folks who used to consider going to law school have now decided to stay away which (I hope) will help correct the problem, but it may be several years. 

[JesseMartin]

Did you start at aTm law before or after they took it over?  Did you hear about the nuts that are suing for the "right" to call themselves aTm grads because they got their JDs when it was Wesleyan?  I've never heard of such a thing.  And these people are lawyers, too.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

Did you start at aTm law before or after they took it over?  Did you hear about the nuts that are suing for the "right" to call themselves aTm grads because they got their JDs when it was Wesleyan?  I've never heard of such a thing.  And these people are lawyers, too.

After they took it. I was the first class to actually "apply" to A&M law. I hate to say it but I probably would not have gone there had it still been Wesleyan. Nothing wrong with the school but with the market and everything I wanted to stay local but go to a school that at least had some name recognition and resources behind it. So far, the purchase has paid off, the school is ranked in US news for the first time in its history and its average LSAT scores are now tied with Texas Tech's law school. A&M definitely took the right route purchasing an already existing law school. Yes, I heard about that. It is crazy and I suspect that attorney has a little too much time on his hands. 

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

If anyone is interested, this chart of declining enrollment in law school is pretty striking. http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202732508706/Has-Law-School-Enrollment-Hit-Rock-Bottom?slreturn=20150804124139

Edited September 4, 2015 by ChristopherRyanWilkes