The Moral Dilemma

Caw Caw · August 24, 2015

We all envy the rise of teams like TCU, Baylor and A&M. I for one would be glad to be presented on anywhere near the same footing as them. I am not disillusioned enough to think that we are. With that being said, do you think that success comes at the cost of turning a blnder eye as far as grades and criminal activity goes? All of those schools have seen a fairly large increase in serious criminal issues, and a history of looking the other way to let players do so. Is it just me or do the two seem to come together? I am aware that we have had Joseph Randle level bookings recently, but A&M had 7 in 2014, including an assault charge, Baylor has had it's knowing recruitment of a sexual predator who repeated the offenses he was booted from Boise for, and the TCU coke ring among other smaller activities.

Is success tied to a cover-up mentality? Does allowing these things give you better recruiting options? How far would you want UNT to go to achieve success? Would a Baylor level scandal be worth a top 5 CFB spot to you?

SilverEagle · August 24, 2015

North Texas has historically been somewhat in the "boy scout" category when it comes to questionable behavior on the part of athletes, as well as the conduct of coaches who might break NCAA rules....just ask Bob Tyler. The first incident that I remember at North Texas was our first 1K rusher Leo Taylor (68/69). His tenure was cut short because (if my source was correct) he was caught taking things from dorm rooms that didn't belong to him. I remember that one the first things that Corkey Nelson had to deal with as the head coach was one of his "potential" star RB's (from Denton) was accused of rape. He was quickly sent away.

Intolerance of "bad behavior" by the administration is as long a tradition at North Texas as the indifference of alumni. I hope those are not somehow tied to one another.

As to your question about would I approve of turning a blind eye to bad behavior for a top 5 spot?.....no.

On a more practical note, let's wait until we regularly hang around the mid-pack of bowl teams before we contemplate the cost of that rarefied air of top 5 status.

GreenTexan13 · August 24, 2015

I think North Texas should stick will being morally right. A player rapes, steals, commits violence should be immediately removed from the program as it has been happening/

Would a Baylor level scandal be worth a top 5 CFB spot to me? absolutely not. At the end of the day, there has to be a role model image to the community and students.

On a more practical note, let's wait until we regularly hang around the mid-pack of bowl teams before we contemplate the cost of that rarefied air of top 5 status.

Or at least become a giant killer program like Boise State and NIU.

Cr1028 · August 24, 2015

North Texas has historically been somewhat in the "boy scout" category when it comes to questionable behavior on the part of athletes

Brandon Kennedy has your backpack.

Tyler Maryak · August 24, 2015

I've wondered something similar myself in the past and my answer has me wondering if I'm, at least in a small way, a hypocrite. I would never want us to condone or in any way permit illegal/unethical/immoral activities and I would be disappointed if we knowingly recruited players with a history of bad behavior. However, when I see really good players leaving a team because of something relatively minor and (as far as I am aware) it is their first offense, I can't help but think, "Man, how great could it be for our team if we got THAT guy?"

Granted, that's a big "if" because a great player can be bad for a team if he's actually a bad person, but I still wonder...if we were a place for second chances, where could we go?

James · August 25, 2015

While I don't condone the behavior in any way...

All this reminds me of is the successful periods the Miami Hurricanes witnessed.

North Texas Shep · August 25, 2015

TCU at least drops kids like a bad habit if they do something wrong. "Coke" ring as you call it, kids gone (even the starters in the "ring"). Kid gets a DWI, off the team or out a season for rehab. Best defensive player is seen hitting a girl and he is off the team. He was not even brought up on charges. So, this is the way it should be. Kids get caught doing shit like this, they are off the damn team in a heart beat.

Got5onIt · August 25, 2015

i think we're looking too hard at athletes on this matter much like people do over athletes and graduation rates. How much of the general student body willingly participates in illegal activity? and do stupid things? Athletes are representing their university, thus they're held to a higher standard. That still doesn't take away from the fact that most college kids are young and "stupid".

Edited August 25, 2015 by Got5onIt

jdennis82 · August 25, 2015

I've had the similar curiosity on this matter.

Sadly, I think what we continue to see is that college football has increasingly become big business. As is the case in the corporate world, when revenue generation increases, the willingness to accept "risk" also increases. In college football, that risk varies but unfortunately can border on improper behavior off the field & in the classroom.

Hopefully, the Baylor situation serves to remind our staff, athletic department, and school administration that as we hope to improve the visibility of our athletics ("“We need teams that get national attention, because like it or not, one of the biggest ways schools get recognized is the quality of their teams..." - N. Smatresk), that national attention can work both ways if proper balance and oversight of this risk is not in place.

Caw Caw · August 25, 2015

Jdennis, I think you have an interesting point. If you look at it from a profit/risk ratio. As success rises so does the appetite for risk. You're hedging your bets really. I agree UNT image is boyscout-ish (especially under McCarney). It's great to not have to worry about your teams athletics or off the field habits. We have an institution that prides itself on developing people, not just their talents. I'm grateful to be a part of that, but I, like Tyler find myself interested in big program kids with more minor offenses from the Dallas area who are getting sent back home. The prospect of 4-5 star talent is awesome, almost mythical to our program. I'd be lying if I i'm not at least curious. And of course I'm not jumping the gun saying throwing our morality out the window will all the sudden sky-rocket us to the top five. It was just a bench mark to compare programs. It's less vague than, would you trade trouble for success.

Cr1028 · August 25, 2015

Jdennis, I think you have an interesting point. If you look at it from a profit/risk ratio. As success rises so does the appetite for risk. You're hedging your bets really. I agree UNT image is boyscout-ish (especially under McCarney). It's great to not have to worry about your teams athletics or off the field habits. We have an institution that prides itself on developing people, not just their talents. I'm grateful to be a part of that, but I, like Tyler find myself interested in big program kids with more minor offenses from the Dallas area who are getting sent back home. The prospect of 4-5 star talent is awesome, almost mythical to our program. I'd be lying if I i'm not at least curious. And of course I'm not jumping the gun saying throwing our morality out the window will all the sudden sky-rocket us to the top five. It was just a bench mark to compare programs. It's less vague than, would you trade trouble for success.

Try ‌@jdennis82 to get his attention.

jdennis82 · August 25, 2015

Jdennis, I think you have an interesting point. If you look at it from a profit/risk ratio. As success rises so does the appetite for risk. You're hedging your bets really. I agree UNT image is boyscout-ish (especially under McCarney). It's great to not have to worry about your teams athletics or off the field habits. We have an institution that prides itself on developing people, not just their talents. I'm grateful to be a part of that, but I, like Tyler find myself interested in big program kids with more minor offenses from the Dallas area who are getting sent back home. The prospect of 4-5 star talent is awesome, almost mythical to our program. I'd be lying if I i'm not at least curious. And of course I'm not jumping the gun saying throwing our morality out the window will all the sudden sky-rocket us to the top five. It was just a bench mark to compare programs. It's less vague than, would you trade trouble for success.

I may have been unclear in my personal position. I'm all for bringing in or even retaining the player who's had a misstep but because I agree that the greatest value I'd like the players who come through the program to experience is personal growth and development. I am simply saying properly evaluating the program's ability to properly rehabilitate or support the maturation of the individual is key - in the same way the program has in place a program to assist a player who has previous academic challenges.

I was more generally assessing what I think we've seen at Baylor. It seems they were willing to accept the risk that the controls they had in place would be OK and I suspect this assessment was in part because their risk appetite grew beyond what they likely intended as the success of the program grew faster than anticipated.

Edited August 25, 2015 by jdennis82

Army of Dad · August 25, 2015

I may have been unclear in my personal position. I'm all for bringing in or even retaining the player who's had a misstep but because I agree that the greatest value I'd like the players who come through the program to experience is personal growth and development. I am simply saying properly evaluating the program's ability to properly rehabilitate or support the maturation of the individual is key - in the same way the program has in place a program to assist a player who has previous academic challenges.
I was more generally assessing what I think we've seen at Baylor. It seems they were willing to accept the risk that the controls they had in place would be OK and I suspect this assessment was in part because their risk appetite grew beyond what they likely intended as the success of the program grew faster than anticipated.

I believe Oakman was kicked out of Penn St, though I do not recall what the issue may have been, and Baylor has been pretty successful with that transfer. It could have allowed their risk tolerance to grow or remain high.