From reddit, a picture of the Denton courthouse in 1928

[oldguystudent]

Denton has done quite a job at maintaining the original look and feel of downtown.

[THOR]

i do love the square...always thought the courthouse looked all russian like

[oldguystudent]

As I've always said, develop University and the 35 corridor all you want, but leave the square.  That place is special.

[greenminer]

Well, wouldja look at that! Not a single DoucheBroJoe parked his car across two spots.

 

The symmetry is visually poetic, if you will.

[EagleMBA]

If possible without significant effort, I would love to see a picture taken recently from the same angle/perspective. It would truly be an amazing comparison...in a good way!

[TheWestie]

Wow I can't believe the Mini Mall was open way back then. You can see the sign in that photo.

[HoustonEagle]

You better remember exactly where you parked back then. 

[Coffee and TV]

Now if they could do something about that confederate memorial, that'd be cool. 

[oldguystudent]

Now if they could do something about that confederate memorial, that'd be cool. 

Oh, but they did.  About twenty feet away from the monument, is this sign.  It's all better now.  Don't worry.

[Coffee and TV]

"sacrificed themselves for the community".....to fight for slavery and traitors

[UNTFan23]

"sacrificed themselves for the community".....to fight for slavery and traitors

There is always a winning and a losing side to any war.  To not memorialize their deaths to me is to says their sacrifice isn't worth remembering because they lost and what they were fighting for is today not a popular idea. By those standards we shouldn't have Vietnam Memorials 'cause ... you know ... we lost that one.  The Vietnam Wart was extremely unpopular and to this day I feel like we still don't treat veterans from that war with the respect they deserve.

[oldguystudent]

There is always a winning and a losing side to any war.  To not memorialize their deaths to me is to says their sacrifice isn't worth remembering because they lost and what they were fighting for is today not a popular idea. By those standards we shouldn't have Vietnam Memorials 'cause ... you know ... we lost that one.  The Vietnam Wart was extremely unpopular and to this day I feel like we still don't treat veterans from that war with the respect they deserve.

You know, I've got a history degree.  I spent quite a bit of that time studying pre-civil war stuff.  To this day, I still don't fully understand just what your standard issue confederate soldier was fighting for.  The wealthy slave owners that we care to focus on were really few and far between as a percentage of the overall population of the south went.  

[Army of Dad]

You know, I've got a history degree.  I spent quite a bit of that time studying pre-civil war stuff.  To this day, I still don't fully understand just what your standard issue confederate soldier was fighting for.  The wealthy slave owners that we care to focus on were really few and far between as a percentage of the overall population of the south went.  

Pre-war Americans were "citizens" of their states before they were American citizens? State pride was greater than national patriotism?

[Cerebus]

Pre-war Americans were "citizens" of their states before they were American citizens? State pride was greater than national patriotism?

Ping!

Also, let's not forget that while most of the soldiers did not own slaves, they probably dreamed of a time when they became rich and prosperous enough to own slaves.

 I mean let's not beat around the bush, almost no white man in the north or south considered a black man to be his equal.   The Union didn't allow blacks to serve until they organized the Bureau of Colored Troops in 1863, and at first only under white officers.   Equal pay wasn't instituted until 1865.   Most commanders refused to use them in the line, especially with white troops.  When the colored units were sent to the Army of the West, Sherman stripped them of their rifles and made them pioneer units.  

The army wasn't integrated until the Korean War.

[CMJ]

"sacrificed themselves for the community".....to fight for slavery and traitors

I was on your side regarding the flag removal, but I'm not on board with taking down monuments and memorials.  That's a very Soviet era type of thing to do.

 

Not to mention, I believe an act of Congress declared all Confederate veterans were considered USA veterans.

[Coffee and TV]

There is always a winning and a losing side to any war.  To not memorialize their deaths to me is to says their sacrifice isn't worth remembering because they lost and what they were fighting for is today not a popular idea. By those standards we shouldn't have Vietnam Memorials 'cause ... you know ... we lost that one.  The Vietnam Wart was extremely unpopular and to this day I feel like we still don't treat veterans from that war with the respect they deserve.

Meh...you can agree or disagree with our reasoning for being in Vietnam but at the end of the day it was an American War. To me the Civil War soldiers are no different than Benedict Arnold, whose bust was removed West Point long ago. 

[Cerebus]

I was on your side regarding the flag removal, but I'm not on board with taking down monuments and memorials. 

The flag had to come down from the state house because it's supposed to be a representative government.  I also think the states who have it incorporated into the state flag need to remove it.  But if Jim Bob wants to fly it on his pickup, let him.

I believe the monuments should stay as long as there is a tie to local history.  The memorial on the square is a perfect example.  Put up another monument / signage discussing why some people disagree with the symbolism.  Or, put up a monument to Union soldiers, thousands of Texans served in the Union army.  

However, is there is no clear local connection (Jefferson Davis statue at UT, Robert E. Lee park here in Dallas) I would rather they remain, but I don't have a huge issue with them being removed.   Or, put up a monument to all soldiers, or to groups that had been ignored.  10,000 Texans of Mexican heritage served in both armies, but there isn't a monument to them.

 

 

-----  (I really hate that the board now merges posts if you post back to back)   -----

 

 

To me the Civil War soldiers are no different than Benedict Arnold, whose bust was removed West Point long ago. 

You really aren't understanding the mindset of Americans of that age.  Thinking of yourself as an American first, before your statehood is really a post Civil War mindset, brought out by the war itself.  Yes the Union was a powerful part of their lives, to be respected and greatly admired, but it was a Union between sovereign states.  

I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honour for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labour, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It is intended for 'perpetual Union,' so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession: anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, and all the other patriots of the Revolution. … Still, a Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets, and in which strife and civil war are to take the place of brotherly love and kindness, has no charm for me. I shall mourn for my country and for the welfare and progress of mankind. If the Union is dissolved and the Government disrupted, I shall return to my native State and share the miseries of my people, and, save in defense will draw my sword on none. --- Robert E. Lee, letter to his son, January 1861.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Cerebus

[oldguystudent]

When I originally posted this, I just thought it was a cool picture.  

As someone from the left coast, for whom the civil war holds no personal history among elder family members, I recall the first time I visited a southern state in 1991 how strange it was to me that people still held it of such importance.

Today, I just find it fascinating. The monument in the square doesn't offend me.  I find the little sign that attempts to explain it away humorous, along the lines of, "Well, I guess we're kinda sorry, but not really.  This thing ain't going nowhere."

Then I simply head over to Oak Street, order myself a nice tall pint of some delicious beverage, watch the bearded hipsters filling the water bowls for their dogs, and think to myself, "Wherever Denton has been, it's pretty damn cool today."

[LongJim]

From their perspective, it's probably important because people they owed their existence to died fighting in a war that they may or may not have agreed with.  

I had 2 ancestors serve.  One came home.  One didn't.  I didn't agree with the cause they fought for, but I wasn't there, and don't know what they were thinking at the time.  I'm glad somebody remembered them and their service, though.

[Coffee and TV]

 

You really aren't understanding the mindset of Americans of that age.  Thinking of yourself as an American first, before your statehood is really a post Civil War mindset, brought out by the war itself.  Yes the Union was a powerful part of their lives, to be respected and greatly admired, but it was a Union between sovereign states.  

Weird how in that quote you bolded some words of Lee talking about the dissolution of the Union was the most awful thing, yet he served as a high military commander for the treasonous army. His actions seem to be at war with his original statements in 1861. At least Sam Houston wasn't too prideful to see through the BS when it was all going down. 

[UNTFan23]

Weird how in that quote you bolded some words of Lee talking about the dissolution of the Union was the most awful thing, yet he served as a high military commander for the treasonous army. His actions seem to be at war with his original statements in 1861. At least Sam Houston wasn't too prideful to see through the BS when it was all going down. 

By the way, Sam Houston was a slave owner yet we have statues of him littered all over the state and even a city named after him.  #TearItDown!

[Cerebus]

Weird how in that quote you bolded some words of Lee talking about the dissolution of the Union was the most awful thing, yet he served as a high military commander for the treasonous army. His actions seem to be at war with his original statements in 1861. At least Sam Houston wasn't too prideful to see through the BS when it was all going down. 

I don't see how it undermines my point.  I said the Union was a powerful part of their lives, but in the end their state was their native land.  Lee was offered command of all US forces, he turned it down to defend his homeland.  

 

By the way, Sam Houston was a slave owner yet we have statues of him littered all over the state and even a city named after him.  #TearItDown!

Let's not forget the one of the primary reasons to break away from Mexico was that the colonists were holding slaves, and wanted to hold even more, despite the fact it was against the Guerrero Decree and explicitly  prohibited in their migration papers (Well, the ones who didn't just sneak across the border in the first place.)

[Coffee and TV]

By the way, Sam Houston was a slave owner yet we have statues of him littered all over the state and even a city named after him.  #TearItDown!

Slavery was widely accepted at the time and was long before then as well. I'm not one to think we should tear down a Washington or Jefferson or Houston statue, I'm more bothered that the South has basically rewritten history to honor those who succeeded as if they were committing an honorable act.  

[UNTFan23]

Slavery was widely accepted at the time and was long before then as well. I'm not one to think we should tear down a Washington or Jefferson or Houston statue, I'm more bothered that the South has basically rewritten history to honor those who succeeded as if they were committing an honorable act.  

So ...

Monuments of slave owners == Acceptable

Civil War Monuments for Confederate Soldiers == Bad

Lets also try to keep in mind that many of the soldiers who fought in the civil war likely didn't even own slaves.

[Cerebus]

Slavery was widely accepted at the time and was long before then as well.

Uh, no.  When he moved to Coahuila y Tejas it was very much illegal in Mexico.