A familiar subject at UNT too

DeepGreen · July 18, 2015

http://www.underdogdynasty.com/2015/7/9/8817401/texas-state-athletics-conversations-with-student-leaders

cwb · July 18, 2015

But...only at North Texas.

SilverEagle · July 18, 2015

Culture change needed huh? Interesting idea. Culture change is like fighting fire ants in your community. Everyone in the neighborhood needs to get out there with their amdro and treat the mounds at the same time.....and then follow up.

While I don't believe you can point a finger at just one person/organization, culture change is something that needs to start from the top and flow down hill. Having said that, who is in charge of promotions/spirit organizations? And what are the expectations set for these groups? Or the person(s) in charge?

I've said this many times, but Hayden Fry called it perfectly (culture change) when he came to NT and it set about doing just that. He changed the shade of green, got a new logo, and emphasized Mean Green over Eagles. He then held a town meeting and invited all students, faculty, and staff so he could share his vision for the program and asked for everyone's help. He then went about making contact in the Denton and surrounding communities to ask for their support. And the outreach didn't end after the initial push.

Side Show Joe · July 18, 2015

Culture change needed huh? Interesting idea. Culture change is like fighting fire ants in your community. Everyone in the neighborhood needs to get out there with their amdro and treat the mounds at the same time.....and then follow up.
While I don't believe you can point a finger at just one person/organization, culture change is something that needs to start from the top and flow down hill. Having said that, who is in charge of promotions/spirit organizations? And what are the expectations set for these groups? Or the person(s) in charge?
I've said this many times, but Hayden Fry called it perfectly (culture change) when he came to NT and it set about doing just that. He changed the shade of green, got a new logo, and emphasized Mean Green over Eagles. He then held a town meeting and invited all students, faculty, and staff so he could share his vision for the program and asked for everyone's help. He then went about making contact in the Denton and surrounding communities to ask for their support. And the outreach didn't end after the initial push.

I wasn't here when Fry did these things. I wonder if moving the games to Texas Stadium hurt Fry's push to rally support from the students and Denton community?

greenit · July 18, 2015

Not that I am a huge fan, but RV has changed the shade of green, changed the logo, help lead the building of a new stadium, instituted tailgating, changed conferences, grew MGC membership 400%, grew season ticket holder membership by 400% (can't deny numbers were absolutely putrid when he started and now they are just slightly less putrid).

While it isn't enough, it is quite a bit that has been accomplished in 14 years when compared to the 85 years prior.

untbowler · July 19, 2015

Not that I am a huge fan, but RV has changed the shade of green, changed the logo, help lead the building of a new stadium, instituted tailgating, changed conferences, grew MGC membership 400%, grew season ticket holder membership by 400% (can't deny numbers were absolutely putrid when he started and now they are just slightly less putrid).
While it isn't enough, it is quite a bit that has been accomplished in 14 years when compared to the 85 years prior.

see bolded, he did lead by keeping his mouth shut and let the students get it passed, he lost out the the first time he tried.

greenit · July 19, 2015

Like many, I appreciate the role the student leaders played in generating support from the general student population, but I think RV recognized that the student population had already shown that they were not receptive to the message coming from 'the man' to ask them to pass the resolution. By engaging/encouraging, or as some say 'doing nothing', the student leaders used their influence to persuade their fellow students to pass the resolution, and RV got what he wanted.

Yes the student leaders played a key role in getting the vote passed. Once the vote was in, RV has pretty much taken the ball and ran with it. Yes, I would say that he has led the building of a new stadium. Sometimes from in the foreground, and sometimes from the background, as all managers/leaders do depending on the situation.

Harry · July 19, 2015

Frankly we have a lot more to be excited about in terms of facilities, conference etc. There are certainly similarities between the both of us in terms of size academics etc. The problem I see with TSU is they sort of alienated a lot of their alumni from the SWT era with the name change. It's a good school and in a beautiful setting. I think they can do some good things in the future.

SilverEagle · July 19, 2015

I wasn't here when Fry did these things. I wonder if moving the games to Texas Stadium hurt Fry's push to rally support from the students and Denton community?

Fry wasn't the one that started playing games at Texas Stadium. In fact in the season before he arrived (72) we played four of our home games at TS. I'm guessing that the reason for playing games at TS was the stadium's draw to the general public, plus there are many more alumni in Dallas/Tarrant county than in Denton county. When Hayden was coach the games played at TS tended to be ones where most of the audience was close by the stadium..SMU, UTA, Ok.St. etc.

North Texas Shep · July 19, 2015

Not that I am a huge fan, but RV has changed the shade of green, changed the logo, help lead the building of a new stadium, instituted tailgating, changed conferences, grew MGC membership 400%, grew season ticket holder membership by 400% (can't deny numbers were absolutely putrid when he started and now they are just slightly less putrid).
While it isn't enough, it is quite a bit that has been accomplished in 14 years when compared to the 85 years prior.

Think how much faster all the above would have happened if he cared? New logo he hid for years, stadium he dropped the ball on first chance, and other positive stuff came with the new stadium.

UNT90 · July 19, 2015

Not that I am a huge fan, but RV has changed the shade of green, changed the logo, help lead the building of a new stadium, instituted tailgating, changed conferences, grew MGC membership 400%, grew season ticket holder membership by 400% (can't deny numbers were absolutely putrid when he started and now they are just slightly less putrid).
While it isn't enough, it is quite a bit that has been accomplished in 14 years when compared to the 85 years prior.

and I would argue that his accomplishments are minimal over the last 14 years, especially when you look at the huge leap in popularity of college athletics during the same time period.

Its something that ANY AD should have accomplished.

And what is absent is any big 3 program that has been a consistent winner.

Also, going from 1 person involved to 2 people involved is a 100% increase. Be honest and use real numbers. Cerebus has already done this, and they are miserable.

Edited July 19, 2015 by UNT90

greenit · July 19, 2015

Plying devil's advocate, if it were so easy to fix at North Texas, why hasn't it been fixed in th the prior 85 years.

I mentioned that the numbers went from really putrid to slightly less putrid. What is the annualized growth rate of 400% over 14 years. These ARE real numbers.

UNT90 · July 19, 2015

Plying devil's advocate, if it were so easy to fix at North Texas, why hasn't it been fixed in th the prior 85 years.
I mentioned that the numbers went from really putrid to slightly less putrid. What is the annualized growth rate of 400% over 14 years. These ARE real numbers.

So, if we had one member when RV started, and now had 4 members, you would consider that successful?

Cerebus's posted numbers that I believe were about 850 new members while graduating 76,000 people during the time period. Off the top of my head, that's slightly more than 1% of alumni giving back to the athletic program during RV's tenure.

Do you consider that a success?

Jim has the answer for you about why it hasn't been fixed. The UNT adiminstration cares more about balancing budgets than growing athletics. Plain and simple.

Edited July 19, 2015 by UNT90

greenit · July 19, 2015

And the prior sins are RV's fault?

If I am RV's manager(s), I have to look at how things were when he got here and what has occurred since that time. You may not be happy with where we started, but it is what it is. A better question might be, why were we at those beginning levels?

The point about growing by 850 members compared to graduates seems intriguing. I wonder, when compared to our conference mates during the same time, where we rank. That would help me evaluate RV's real performance. I have no way of knowing if adding 1% of graduates is good or bad. On the surface it sounds bad, but it may actually be good.

I am trying to look at what the BOR might be looking at in order to justify rewarding RV with an extension. They are not stupid people.

UNT90 · July 19, 2015

THEY ARE RV'S SINS!

What at are you talking about? Those numbers are from RV's time at the helm.

What the BOR looks at is balancing the budget. They have shown repeatedly time and again to care about nothing else. That is why RV has held this job for 14 years and hasn't moved up the ranks of college ADs (yes, he has applied).

greenit · July 19, 2015

You specifically questioned whether RV should be credited with going from 1 to 4. He had nothing to do with the fact that he started with 1. Am I missing something? We spent 85 years building up to 1. In 14 years we are now at 4.

I can't disagree that 4 still seems bad when compared to P5 schools, and probably the top tier G5 as well, but it would be interesting to know how our growth compares with our conference mates during that time.

UNT90 · July 19, 2015

Depends on conference mates. WKU started with zero because they didn't have a football program 14 years ago. USM, on the other hand, was far advanced 14 years ago.

The trick the protectors will use will be to say that there is no way to compare UNT to anyone else, because our circumstances are so "special."

What I do know is that a 1% retention rate among alumni is absolutely unacceptable at UNT, regardless of what anyone else has or has not done.

Side Show Joe · July 19, 2015

Frankly we have a lot more to be excited about in terms of facilities, conference etc. There are certainly similarities between the both of us in terms of size academics etc. The problem I see with TSU is they sort of alienated a lot of their alumni from the SWT era with the name change. It's a good school and in a beautiful setting. I think they can do some good things in the future.

Also, Texas State sets between San Antonio and Austin. Both markets are home to large FBS playing universities. It will be difficult for TSU to draw in new fans from either location. I know we have to contend with TCU and SMU, but both are small private universities.

Our alumni base in Dallas and Fort worth are sizable and would allow us to command a respectable amount of support and draw in new fans if we were to sustain years of success in athletics.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Side Show Joe

SilverEagle · July 19, 2015

Also, Texas State sets between San Antonio and Austin. Both markets are home to large FBS playing universities. It will be difficult for TSU to draw in new fans from either location. I know we have to contend with TCU and SMU, but both are small private universities.
Our alumni base in Dallas and Fort worth are sizable and would allow us to command a respectable amount of support and draw in new fans if we were to sustain years of success in athletics.

.....and actively (year in, and year out) court them regardless of how well our team is doing.

Ben Gooding · July 20, 2015

Plying devil's advocate, if it were so easy to fix at North Texas, why hasn't it been fixed in th the prior 85 years.
I mentioned that the numbers went from really putrid to slightly less putrid. What is the annualized growth rate of 400% over 14 years. These ARE real numbers.

To be the devil to your devil...

Nice facilities are great. Apogee Stadium and the athletic complex puts us ahead of our peers in regards to facilities and that's great. However, I would rather be winning in Fouts than losing in Apogee. So RV was our AD when we got a facility upgrade...who cares. We are still a losing program and have been 10 out of RV"s 14 years. Look no further, that's where the problem lies.

Our losing vs the opening of Apogee... which is more prevalent? Better question may even be, what have we accomplished as a program that we wouldn't have been able to accomplish in Fouts aside fron MAYBE CUSA entry (but even then the need for CUSA after SMU's departure to maintain a DFW footprint would've outweighed the need for us to get a new stadium). Have we landed any recruits that we may have not landed in Fouts? Have we brought in any OOC opponents that we weren't able to bring into Fouts? We are still getting debo'd in recruiting as if we do play in Fouts. We haven't even sold out the best venue in CUSA, once. So, yeah, the pro-RV folks can lean on that he "oversaw" the upgrade of facilities, but we are still losing. And I won't even go into detail over the dismantling of our basketball program. The man needs to be fired, it's really an easy decision. When an executive does things in the real non-UNT world that hinders revenue year after year there is not a chance in hell he would remain in position for 14 years. In that stance we can honestly say, "Only at UNT."

oldguystudent · July 20, 2015

When an executive does things in the real non-UNT world that hinders revenue year after year there is not a chance in hell he would remain in position for 14 years. In that stance we can honestly say, "Only at UNT."

Hmm...I've long been suspicious of this.

greenit · July 20, 2015

We are winning in Apogee. It's away from Apogee where we have a problem...

I also forgot to mention that during RV's tenure, we have appeared in 2 of our 3 total men's NCAA tournament appearances in history. Also during RV's reign of terror, we have played in 5 of the 7 total bowl games in our history (5/14, still needs to be 50%+).

I hate to come off as a supporter, because I am actually on the fence with RV. I recognize some of the positive things he has done, but I still feel like there should be more. The big 3 sports should maintain records at or above .500 for example.

I haven't taken the time to look at the other sports to see what our results have been, but I know that there has been some success in those sports.

As Oldguy pointed out, you might be surprised at what executives in the 'real world' get away with.

UNT90 · July 20, 2015

We are winning in Apogee. It's away from Apogee where we have a problem...

I also forgot to mention that during RV's tenure, we have appeared in 2 of our 3 total men's NCAA tournament appearances in history. Also during RV's reign of terror, we have played in 5 of the 7 total bowl games in our history (5/14, still needs to be 50%+).
I hate to come off as a supporter, because I am actually on the fence with RV. I recognize some of the positive things he has done, but I still feel like there should be more. The big 3 sports should maintain records at or above .500 for example.
I haven't taken the time to look at the other sports to see what our results have been, but I know that there has been some success in those sports.
As Oldguy pointed out, you might be surprised at what executives in the 'real world' get away with.

And then he destroyed basketball and refuses to fix it.

Your standards are really low. Do you realize that?

Edited July 20, 2015 by UNT90

greenit · July 20, 2015

I think my standards are realistic. Averaging at least .500 across the 3 major sports would be a huge leap for us considering where we are now.

I don't disagree with the sinking of men's basketball. We took a chance on an assistant from a proven program and he proved that he was in over his head initially and this year should be a good indicator of whether he is going to be able to get over the hump.

I still feel good about having Mac as the face of our program. Even with the inconsistency, I feel he has restored some legitimacy. If he will focus more on managing his coordinators and helping with boosters and less on the details (I.e give his assistants the freedom to run their units) I think he can be very good for us.

The jury is still out on Jalie. I fear there may be a few lean years while she learns the ropes of being a head coach.

Mad it stands right now, I feel the following items should be at the top of RV's list:

1. Fund cost of attendance

2. Fish or cut bait with Benford (he either shows improvement this year or he has to go)

3. Eliminate football payday game and replace with 2 H/H series

4. Find the necessary funds for indoor practice facility

5. Fund the baseball program

Every one of the items on the list requires money. Lot's of it.

GTWT · July 20, 2015

UNT90,

1) Balancing the budget is a priority of the BOR & the university administration - not the only or top priority but still critical.

2) Athletics are important to me & you, but the reason a university exists is academics. Athletics are a priority only to the extent they support the mission of the university.