Southern Miss, Conference USA, and the Dark Side of Realignment

MeanGreenTexan · June 26, 2015

That's adorable. You realize no one in a P5 conference is willing to take less money just to bring a G5 in. Not even BYU, which is miles ahead of UH.

Or UCONN, you know, the team that makes money hand-over-fist just about every march for their conference. There are tons of schools ahead of Houston.

Side Show Joe · June 27, 2015

America loves football but it also loves "the best", if it cared about "second best" as much then the Southland would have a decent TV contract.

Isn't the Southland already in the "third best" group in a scenario? Behind the P5 and G5 conferences. I assume the G5 conferences already occupy the "second best " catagory. I don't see that changing should there be an official split.

Cougar King · June 28, 2015

Isn't the Southland already in the "third best" group in a scenario? Behind the P5 and G5 conferences. I assume the G5 conferences already occupy the "second best " catagory. I don't see that changing should there be an official split.

Like I said, we play a much different game than UNT does. I know it's hard for you to understand what it's like to see your school having bigger aspirations considering you're a UNT fan and all, but take some of these tweets into account, whether you want to believe them or not is up to you. We all know, that when there's smoke, there's fire. There's a reason why UH always comes up when people talk P5 expansion.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 6h 6 hours ago

Sources: If Big 12 expands, look for Houston to top candidates list not BYU. Probably a pipe dream, but Big 12 would love a Nebraska return.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK

Dave Sittler retweeted Derrick

Some Big 12 officials have quietly studied UH and are impressed with potential.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK

Dave Sittler retweeted MG

Bingo!

Dave Sittler added,

MG@MatthewG918

@ GoPokesBF @ DaveSittler yes because UH alums in the Texas legislature > Texas, Tech & TCU.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK

Dave Sittler retweeted MG

You're underestimating the power of Texas politics.

Dave Sittler added,

MG@MatthewG918

@ DaveSittler there is absolutely zero chance the current Big12 membership votes in another Texas school. TCU only in because of desperation.

1 retweet0 favorites

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 4h 4 hours ago Tulsa, OK

Dave Sittler retweeted Middletown Dream

Because BYU would enhance problem WVa location has already created.

Dave Sittler added,

Middletown Dream@middletowndream

@ DaveSittler BYU not in discussion because of location?! Location didn't stop WVU, Why would it stop BYU? What other items?

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK

Dave Sittler retweeted Kid w/the Golden Arm

That's my choice since BYU is reportedly not in the discussion because of location and other items.

Dave Sittler added,

Kid w/the Golden Arm@ULCards1

@ DaveSittler so you think UH and Cincy?

Cerebus · June 28, 2015

I guess that's why the Big 12 is looking at bringing a handful of G5 schools in. Do some research or the rest of the CFB world starting the recent statements made by the OU president debunking that before you comment on such things.

You've pushed right past adorable into drooling idiocy. Yes, the OU president can say any damn thing he wants, but everyone knows UT calls the shots and everyone knows 1) UT doesn't really want to expand, and 2) if they could be talked into expanding there is no chance in hell they would let another Texas school in to dilute their brand.

I know this is hard for UH fans, to accept where you are now: Yes you used to be in a top tier conference but you where found lacking and were left out of the B12 on purpose, not accident. Nothing is changing that, UT's message to you is simple:

Cougar King · June 28, 2015

You've pushed right past adorable into drooling idiocy. Yes, the OU president can say any damn thing he wants, but everyone knows UT calls the shots and everyone knows 1) UT doesn't really want to expand, and 2) if they could be talked into expanding there is no chance in hell they would let another Texas school in to dilute their brand.
I know this is hard for UH fans, to accept where you are now: Yes you used to be in a top tier conference but you where found lacking and were left out of the B12 on purpose, not accident. Nothing is changing that, UT's message to you is simple:

What's wrong? Not gonna approve the posts about all of the tweets I made about UH being a top candidate? You're a moderator, you shouldn't be losing a debate to the guy who has the lowest rep on this forum.

untjim1995 · June 29, 2015

I guess that's why the Big 12 is looking at bringing a handful of G5 schools in. Do some research or the rest of the CFB world starting the recent statements made by the OU president debunking that before you comment on such things.

Why would Texas want a team in market they already own? They already committed that stupidity with TCU, but that was forced on them by the northern Big XII schools who needed an extra game in Texas for recruiting purposes, but chose Ft. Worth for proximity to the schools in Oklahoma and Kansas, plus they actually have won at a much bigger level than UH has ever done in its entire history. UT won't help UH at all with this one and yall have no pull in Austin to over come that UT, Baylor, and Tech alliance. None.

Your P5 hope comes from two possibilities--the Pac-12 wants Texas markets and decides that Ut is too big of a prima donna to wait on for its GOR to expire, so they ask you guys. The other is that the ACC does the same thing. As probable as you want to believe that is, and the possibility exists, I personally don't see it happening. I think the ACC would add Cincy or UConn well ahead of you guys and the pac-12 will gladly wait out until they can get Texas and some others from the Big XII in ten years.

Look, I think UH is a quality program--as good as the G5 can offer, actually. I think that UCF, USF, Memphis, Cincy, UConn, Navy and ECU are all very solid programs to get to be aligned in a conference with. Even the private schools in Temple, Tulsa, Tulane, and SMU have good name recognition, as well. Its a great G5 grouping, to be honest with you. But I just believe that the P5s will become a P4 in about ten years, if not much sooner. Those of us left behind will have to figure out the realities of not having P5 games to pay help fund the budget, as well as reduced TV contracts. That's why I believe that geographically tighter conferences will become necessary. Maybe I'm just wrong and the AAC, CUSA, and SBC will be able to be far-flung conferences still, but its hard for me to see that being a reality.

greenit · June 29, 2015

I don't think UT would be worried one bit about having UH in conference, the same way they don't worry about TTU.

If anything, they may see adding Houston as a way to annoy A$M in the Houston market.

untjim1995 · June 29, 2015

I don't think UT would be worried one bit about having UH in conference, the same way they don't worry about TTU.
If anything, they may see adding Houston as a way to annoy A$M in the Houston market.

If that was true, UH would have already replaced A&M in the Big 12 over tiny little TCU. If UT wanted them in, they'd be in. Instead, they let TCU in, since the northern schools clamored for them as an added team in the Metroplex where a lot of Sooners, Cowboys, Jayhawks, and Wildcats either live or can get to easier than getting to Houston.

Ben Gooding · June 29, 2015

Screw UH, lets focus on getting UNT in the best case scenario we possibly can.

Censored by Laurie · June 29, 2015

take some of these tweets into account

the only place that line will ever have any credibility is Jean-Jacque Taylor's headstone.

untjim1995 · June 29, 2015

CBL--you like wings and that other stuff, too, right??

Censored by Laurie · June 29, 2015

CBL--you like wings and that other stuff, too, right??

eh. sometimes they're both just too much work.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Censored by Laurie

untjim1995 · June 29, 2015

eh. sometimes they're both just too much work.

Its a lotta work for a very little piece of...never mind

Side Show Joe · June 29, 2015

Like I said, we play a much different game than UNT does. I know it's hard for you to understand what it's like to see your school having bigger aspirations considering you're a UNT fan and all, but take some of these tweets into account, whether you want to believe them or not is up to you. We all know, that when there's smoke, there's fire. There's a reason why UH always comes up when people talk P5 expansion.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 6h 6 hours ago
Sources: If Big 12 expands, look for Houston to top candidates list not BYU. Probably a pipe dream, but Big 12 would love a Nebraska return.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK
Dave Sittler retweeted Derrick
Some Big 12 officials have quietly studied UH and are impressed with potential.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK
Dave Sittler retweeted MG
Bingo!
Dave Sittler added,
MG@MatthewG918
@ GoPokesBF @ DaveSittler yes because UH alums in the Texas legislature > Texas, Tech & TCU.

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK
Dave Sittler retweeted MG
You're underestimating the power of Texas politics.
Dave Sittler added,
MG@MatthewG918
@ DaveSittler there is absolutely zero chance the current Big12 membership votes in another Texas school. TCU only in because of desperation.
1 retweet0 favorites

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 4h 4 hours ago Tulsa, OK
Dave Sittler retweeted Middletown Dream
Because BYU would enhance problem WVa location has already created.
Dave Sittler added,
Middletown Dream@middletowndream
@ DaveSittler BYU not in discussion because of location?! Location didn't stop WVU, Why would it stop BYU? What other items?

Dave Sittler ‏ @ DaveSittler 5h 5 hours ago Tulsa, OK
Dave Sittler retweeted Kid w/the Golden Arm
That's my choice since BYU is reportedly not in the discussion because of location and other items.
Dave Sittler added,
Kid w/the Golden Arm@ULCards1
@ DaveSittler so you think UH and Cincy?

Houston isn't going anywhere. You have a $10 million athletic budget advantage over North Texas, and 10,000 more seats in your new stadium. Not exactly Big 12 numbers. That doesn't make you a power 5 caliber program. The Big12 doesn't need Houston. Houston hasn't even come clese to what TCU did. Even if Houston were to some how earn a top 5 ranking and win a Rose Bowl, the Big 12 would still not add you. No way Texas, OU, Texas Tech, or Baylor would allow a very large public university from one of the states best recruiting markets into the conference. They don't want those recruits staying home to play for Houston. Denton Guyer's QB, the #1 ranked duel threat QB in the 2017 class committed to TCU the other day. This kid had offer from Texas, Texas A&M, Alabama, and Southern Cal, just to name a few. If TCU wasn't in the Big 12, he probably would have committed to Texas. I'm fairly sure Houston doesn't have as high of an academic standard as TCU, which would allow Houston to target many of the same Houston area recruits many Big 12 programs are after. Just don't see the Texas Big 12 schools, or OU/Oklahoma State wanting to compete with Houston for the top Houston area recruits. Enjoy the AAC.

Arkstfan · July 1, 2015

From this point forward, I wish Sun Belt membership on Arkansas State forever...it sounds like its your favorite grouping anyway. Enjoy Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Appy State, Texas State, South Alabama, Troy, Idaho, NMSU, and ULM. When we take ULL into CUSA and yall replace them with Lamar or Nicholls State, you should feel great!! No bull, for sure!!
We will continue to enjoy playing teams in Texas that Texans care about and have actually heard of for most of our divisional games, with a few Eastern SBCUSA teams mixed in.
Again, I'm glad you guys like it and yall seem to fit in real nice in the SBC, from a competitive standpoint. But if SMU doesn't follow their dreams to the AQ Big East that is now G5 AAC, we are staring at being in the SBC while UTSA jumps right over us to replace UH in CUSA. If that had happened, with Tulane and Tulsa staying back in CUSA, as well, with the WAC probably still being a league and having Texas State, NMSU, and La Tech, that would've kept us in the SBC as the only Texas school still. That scenario would have been a nightmare for us. Its damn near impossible to get people to come out to watch any of the SBC teams, ones from our days in the league, as well as those that got stuck there today. It will still be an impossible sales job to get most folks to think about coming out to Apogee for future CUSA home games against Charlotte and ODU, both of whom just scream SBC and should have never been invited into the league. But, thankfully, we will only play two teams from the east at home every other year. We get good crowds for the Western CUSA schools--I can only imagine what it will be like if we actually had a sustained winner and hosted Rice, UTSA, UTEP, La Tech, or USM in a big game late in the season. Two years ago, we got around 25k for a November home game against UTEP.
I still think ULL and UAB will trade conference spots, eventually, but even if they don't, our league still sits higher on the totem pole, from a respect factor. That place might be higher by about 6 inches, but its higher. The SBC will always be on the bottom of the media's lists of conference rankings. Whether yall ar followed by us or the MAC, it doesn't change the fact that we got to move upward. Thank God for SMU and the AAC--they gave us the opening to finally move up. And its turned into the absolute best conference setup in our history, in my opnion.

This is just a nutty rant.

You got panty-wadded because I said a list that includes a bunch of schools that were in the Sun Belt when the Sun Belt was holding you back from scheduling good games and being serious about athletics is a load of bull. If you read what I wrote, I specifically said if the discussion were about playing more regional schools I'd nod my head in agreement, what I specifically challenged (that means I pointed out) was the idea that playing FIU, FAU, WKU, MTSU is "more special" now.

That's stupid and you know that but instead you want to rant on me. Fine.

You have the same capacity to influence scheduling and realignment as I do so your wish means about as much as bird droppings. You perceive you've moved upward, you moved upward by joining a school UNT blocked from entering the Sun Belt.

No the Sun Belt didn't offer you Texas opponents, but that's UNT's fault. Your president had indicated he would make the motion to admit UTSA and when new business came upon the agenda he chose to remain silent, everyone was ready to support UTSA to help you get a regional rival and UNT made the decision to not support them.

Arkstfan · July 1, 2015

You've pushed right past adorable into drooling idiocy. Yes, the OU president can say any damn thing he wants, but everyone knows UT calls the shots and everyone knows 1) UT doesn't really want to expand, and 2) if they could be talked into expanding there is no chance in hell they would let another Texas school in to dilute their brand.
I know this is hard for UH fans, to accept where you are now: Yes you used to be in a top tier conference but you where found lacking and were left out of the B12 on purpose, not accident. Nothing is changing that, UT's message to you is simple:

OU doesn't have the votes to expand. If I were wagering, my wager would be OU is just beating the drum to get fans and supporters stirred up to create cover for OU "having no choice" but to defect the Big XII.

Cerebus · July 1, 2015

OU doesn't have the votes to expand. If I were wagering, my wager would be OU is just beating the drum to get fans and supporters stirred up to create cover for OU "having no choice" but to defect the Big XII.

Bingo. UT's AD has already made up his mind, it's just a matter of how to massage it. OU is stuck to them.

Arkstfan · July 1, 2015

Bingo. UT's AD has already made up his mind, it's just a matter of how to massage it. OU is stuck to them.

Not like we've not seen this movie before.

Nebraska. Oh woe is us, the Big XII won't share TV money equally. Never mind they profited nicely from the unequal sharing and by all accounts never tried to end it.

Texas A&M. Oh woe is us, UT has its own TV network and the money isn't shared fairly. But of course they also by all accounts never tried to change the system and supposedly they were offered partnership in LHN and declined it, then it become untenable.

Why I'm Leaving the Big XII Episode Three coming to a sports page near you.

untjim1995 · July 1, 2015

I don't blame Boren for doing this to help OU eventually leave for other pastures, but the GOR is kryptonite for any of these schools. I suppose that if the entire conference got vaporized at once, maybe Ken Starr and Baylor could see everyone that leaves to other P4 leagues, but the networks are going to be the ones to really put the screws to a school that is under their GOR, if they choose. And as it looks now, the GORs are apparently very strong legally, enough to keep ACC schools and Big XII schools from challenging them. BTW, the SEC doesn't have a GOR for anyone--very telling about that fact.

I still think the Texoma 4 go west, KU goes north, WVU goes east to the ACC, and that K-state lands somewhere in the P5. Iowa State, Baylor, and TCU end up in the MWC or AAC.

Arkstfan · July 2, 2015

I don't blame Boren for doing this to help OU eventually leave for other pastures, but the GOR is kryptonite for any of these schools. I suppose that if the entire conference got vaporized at once, maybe Ken Starr and Baylor could see everyone that leaves to other P4 leagues, but the networks are going to be the ones to really put the screws to a school that is under their GOR, if they choose. And as it looks now, the GORs are apparently very strong legally, enough to keep ACC schools and Big XII schools from challenging them. BTW, the SEC doesn't have a GOR for anyone--very telling about that fact.
I still think the Texoma 4 go west, KU goes north, WVU goes east to the ACC, and that K-state lands somewhere in the P5. Iowa State, Baylor, and TCU end up in the MWC or AAC.

Every contract can be broken. Only question is how much will it cost you to do it.

The GOR simply says the Big XII owns the rights to telecast each school's home games through the 2024-25 academic year.

Big XII has in turn sold the Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights to Fox and ESPN and turned Tier 3 back to each school. So we already know there is some part of the TV rights that do not belong to the Big XII and can go to the new league.

As a general principle all the Big XII is entitled to is the stream of payments from Fox and ESPN. If a school leaves, ESPN and Fox still have the right to pick Tier I and II of the departed school and Big XII still gets paid.

What becomes interesting is potential liability on the part of the Big XII. Supposedly the agreement provides that a school forfeits their share of the payments from Fox and ESPN but a court may not agree that the financial hit is consistent with any economic harm and require Big XII to pay a portion to the departee so that it isn't an unconscionable penalty.

I'm not sure a grant of rights is quite the bulletproof vest it has been touted to be. If ESPN and CBS think OU for example is worth increasing the SEC rights fee by more than OU's share of Big XII TV and they get to move part of their content over for free (Tier III) it can be cost effective. If a court says forfeiting all of the payment is too extreme, they could potentially move at little to no cost.

Harry · July 2, 2015

As a Texan, I think most of us would wish to see Texas and A&M be in the same conference. Can this happen again? I think the Big 12 really screwed up letting A&M bolt.

untjim1995 · July 2, 2015

Every contract can be broken. Only question is how much will it cost you to do it.
The GOR simply says the Big XII owns the rights to telecast each school's home games through the 2024-25 academic year.
Big XII has in turn sold the Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights to Fox and ESPN and turned Tier 3 back to each school. So we already know there is some part of the TV rights that do not belong to the Big XII and can go to the new league.
As a general principle all the Big XII is entitled to is the stream of payments from Fox and ESPN. If a school leaves, ESPN and Fox still have the right to pick Tier I and II of the departed school and Big XII still gets paid.
What becomes interesting is potential liability on the part of the Big XII. Supposedly the agreement provides that a school forfeits their share of the payments from Fox and ESPN but a court may not agree that the financial hit is consistent with any economic harm and require Big XII to pay a portion to the departee so that it isn't an unconscionable penalty.
I'm not sure a grant of rights is quite the bulletproof vest it has been touted to be. If ESPN and CBS think OU for example is worth increasing the SEC rights fee by more than OU's share of Big XII TV and they get to move part of their content over for free (Tier III) it can be cost effective. If a court says forfeiting all of the payment is too extreme, they could potentially move at little to no cost.

What we do know is that a GOR hasn't been tested yet, fully. All of the conferences that have one haven't had it completely challenged yet since the other schools hit the road. I suspect that the real test of it will be in about 4-5 years, when the GOR is getting closer to expiration in the big XII.

Read soonerfans.com or orangebloods.com and you see absolutely no one claiming they love the current Big XII, but you'll see plenty of posts that say they want out if they cannot get other P5s to come join them--not G5s. I suspect Boren knows that the SEC may still be interested, but the B1G does, too, and they could get the best of all worlds if they can get Kansas to go with them, allowing them to still have old Big 8 rivals in NU and KU, keep OSU and Texas as OOC, then add in games with the rest of the B1G, which gets two more states to grab the cable fees from their B1G Network.

The Big XII is dead-man walking--and Baylor, TCU, and a few others are set to be in a lot of trouble if things don't work out.

Arkstfan · July 16, 2015

What we do know is that a GOR hasn't been tested yet, fully. All of the conferences that have one haven't had it completely challenged yet since the other schools hit the road. I suspect that the real test of it will be in about 4-5 years, when the GOR is getting closer to expiration in the big XII.
Read soonerfans.com or orangebloods.com and you see absolutely no one claiming they love the current Big XII, but you'll see plenty of posts that say they want out if they cannot get other P5s to come join them--not G5s. I suspect Boren knows that the SEC may still be interested, but the B1G does, too, and they could get the best of all worlds if they can get Kansas to go with them, allowing them to still have old Big 8 rivals in NU and KU, keep OSU and Texas as OOC, then add in games with the rest of the B1G, which gets two more states to grab the cable fees from their B1G Network.
The Big XII is dead-man walking--and Baylor, TCU, and a few others are set to be in a lot of trouble if things don't work out.

GOR is a sticky thing to deal with. It is a subset of a subset of the law and the nearest analogy we have are some of the contracts for performers (anyone remember when Prince hurriedly cranked out a lot of crap records to fulfill his contract?)

I think the B12 is like the airline in Wall Street, worth more busted up than as a single entity. That was the case for the Big East and how'd that turn out?

My life doesn't revolve around Texas so there were two times a year I was likely to watch UT play, vs OU vs TAMU. After that? So what if its on and the best game yeah I'll watch. I might watch Bedlam, I would watch Mizzou-KU hoops. I feel about the Big XII the way I feel about Pac-12 or ACC, interesting team, interesting game, I'll watch. The problem for the Big XII is there isn't a lot of interesting other than the hook of ridiculous scoring in football.

The Big East getting mostly absorbed by the ACC was brilliant. Big East was pretty good at football in an area that isn't crazy about college football, the ACC great at basketball in an area not crazy about hoops (ie. all the ACC other than North Carolina though UVA and MD had good support). Now Duke-UNC is a "local" game in NY and Boston thanks to expansion and Syracuse-Pitt football is "local" in South Carolina and Georgia.

You can bust up the Big XII and make the P12 or Big 10 or SEC more interesting in more places.