Growth in MGC and Season Tickets 2002-2014

[GMG24]

Want the Athletics Ticket Office to visit your Houston company? Email seasontix@uh.edu now! #GoCoogs pic.twitter.com/FsyKZPqSHP

— Houston Football (@UHCougarFB)

May 21, 2015

Or maybe this..? Just a thought, why not more presence on social media?? And why are we allocating dollars, or is Mac allocating dollars for a company to post random quotes get a GA to run your Twitter create and put up cool meaningful stuff that we fans will eat up? Agh I gotta do that job too?

Athletics Ticket Office is downtown selling corporate @UHCougarFB tickets. Email seasontix@uh.edu for your company! pic.twitter.com/wiJi9YmG3V

— Houston Athletics (@UHCougars)

May 21, 2015

[UTSA Fan]

I think having 1 winning season doesn't erase many losing ones before it. It may get attention, but I think the word tossed around in this context is a "tradition" of winning. I would expect 2 or 3 winning seasons to begin to turn a program around. If San Jose State won a bowl, I doubt attendance or recruiting would really change. Do it for 2-3 years, then you have movement. If Denton is what you say it is and the students and alumni are as well, I believe you would need those seasons to build a bandwagon. Winning solves a lot of "problems".

[HoustonEagle]

UNT give this a try.

1)win. A sub .500 team should be the exception not the rule. So to this point I say it is time for RV to go. He is not without accomplishment but we need some new energy in that office. We will need to raise the AD compensation in order to hire a quality candidate. Make it so.

2.)Build your academic reputation. Say what you will about this program or that. The majority of students chose UNT out of convenience and budget. That does not create the rabid alumni we need. I will admit that progress has been made on this front, but let's be honest, the school has a long long way to go.

We could all go on and on about what needs to be done but if you are failing at the 2 key points above everything else becomes far more difficult.

[10Eagle10]

Kram,

It's interesting that you use Oklahoma state as an example since much of their current success can be attributed to getting rid of Harry birdwell and bringing in mike holder; this coming after terry don Phillips was poached by Clemson.

Many on this board feel like it's time for RV to go so we can bring in our "mike holder". Since unfortunately it doesn't look like RV will ever get poached or resign on his own, we need pres S to do it for us. It also wouldn't hurt if we bring in someone who "gets" North Texas, just like double alum Mike Holder "gets" Oklahoma State

[MeanGreenTexan]

I think there's a lot of confusion here. Folks need to keep in mind the audience of those trying to make points.

Kram is talking to people like us, on this board, and people who are UNT sports fans.

He has a leg to stand on, since if you're crazy enough to be on this message board, you're likely crazy enough to blindly support UNT athletics because you enjoy it. If you're so into UNT athletics that you post on this message board, you "owe" - for lack of a better term - your financial support to the program.

If you're an alum/fan on here gaining/providing insight on the Athletics teams, and you're not giving financially, please reconsider, and dont wait for anyone to call you. Reach out!

Cerebus and many, many others are talking about all of the thousands of people who have no allegiance to UNT athletics but are being chided by the athletic department for not being on board. Why would they be? These folks are doing nothing wrong. And, like Cerebus is saying, they'd rather give their money to their college of choice instead... and there's NOTHING wrong with that. It's The Athletic Department's (as a whole) job to put products on the fields/courts that interest people and stir a desire for support. If you're not winning, why would you expect anyone (those not already giving & showing up to your coaches caravans & other ra-ra functions) to start giving?

[Army of Dad]

https://twitter.com/uhcougarfb/status/601475434614824961

Or maybe this..? Just a thought, why not more presence on social media?? And why are we allocating dollars, or is Mac allocating dollars for a company to post random quotes get a GA to run your Twitter create and put up cool meaningful stuff that we fans will eat up? Agh I gotta do that job too?

https://twitter.com/uhcougars/status/601475136617914368

That's shocking.

[SilverEagle]

I think there's a lot of confusion here. Folks need to keep in mind the audience of those trying to make points.

Kram is talking to people like us, on this board, and people who are UNT sports fans.

He has a leg to stand on, since if you're crazy enough to be on this message board, you're likely crazy enough to blindly support UNT athletics because you enjoy it. If you're so into UNT athletics that you post on this message board, you "owe" - for lack of a better term - your financial support to the program.

If you're an alum/fan on here gaining/providing insight on the Athletics teams, and you're not giving financially, please reconsider, and dont wait for anyone to call you. Reach out!

Cerebus and many, many others are talking about all of the thousands of people who have no allegiance to UNT athletics but are being chided by the athletic department for not being on board. Why would they be? These folks are doing nothing wrong. And, like Cerebus is saying, they'd rather give their money to their college of choice instead... and there's NOTHING wrong with that. It's The Athletic Department's (as a whole) job to put products on the fields/courts that interest people and stir a desire for support. If you're not winning, why would you expect anyone (those not already giving & showing up to your coaches caravans & other ra-ra functions) to start giving?

So, the athletic department and all the other departments are independent entities that use the franchise name "North Texas"........... and that's the only family relationship they have? No loyalties? just a shared franchise name?

THAT is why I told that athletic department focus group back in 1990 (led by Dr. Lane) that one of the main problems I saw was that going to a North Texas football game was like going to a contracted event. Where everyone contracted to be there did the minimum (except for the football team). They wore (for the most part) the right colors, they played the required music, and they went through the motions of the standard cheers.

BUT there was no real connection/ belonging between any of them. Once the contracted game/event was over, they all packed up and went their separate ways.

IMHO, THIS is the root problem with our attendance and membership in the MGC.

Edited May 22, 2015 by SilverEagle

[MeanGreenHoops]

Thank you @Cerebus for your terrific responses in this thread. I would guess most of us who have tried to get others to come back to games have experienced pretty much the same thing. Questions like what conference are they in? Who is in that conference? How much is it? And then they wait for you to give them a reason to attend since the previous three answers didn't really fire them up. I think actually for most "generic" sports fans the answers to those questions are not going to get them fired up.

If we were ranked and playing a ranked team, then some people might come along. Or if a top NBA prospect was in town they'd come. Or if we were playing Alabama at home. But most of those are not reality and may never be.

The issue is this is true generally for a lot of schools besides us. I believe that the AD has done a lot right in the last 5 years getting students to be involved and foster school spirit. But those people are not season ticket holders yet.

So for everyone else I find myself having to give a different reason why they should come. The stadium is nice, I'll be there and we have a good time tailgating and lots of food. It's basically a party with a game at the end. Even if you don't like football you can hang out with me or others in our group that you also like. It's works most times and I've managed to convince a couple to season tickets. They did it not out of loyalty/obligation to the school, or wanting to support the program. They did it because it was a fun thing to do.

I think ArkStFan said something similar in another thread. You have to give people a reason to come and we have that. Promote that and you might have something.

[MeanGreenTexan]

So, the athletic department and all the other departments are independent entities that use the franchise name "North Texas"........... and that's the only family relationship they have? No loyalties? just a shared franchise name?

THAT is why I told that athletic department focus group back in 1990 (led by Dr. Lane) that one of the main problems I saw was that going to a North Texas football game was like going to a contracted event. Where everyone contracted to be there did the minimum (except for the football team). They wore (for the most part) the right colors, they played the required music, and they went through the motions of the standard cheers.

BUT there was no real connection/ belonging between any of them. Once the contracted game/event was over, they all packed up and went their separate ways.

IMHO, THIS is the root problem with our attendance and membership in the MGC.

Not everyone is a sports fan homie.

Someone who chooses to give to COB, yet doesn't give a dime to Athletics is not a detriment to the University as a whole and they are not doing anything wrong. If they happen to take in a football game here and there, good for them! But we cannot expect them to jump on board and join the MGC.

Now, if that same person is buying walk-up tickets to every home basketball game (God love 'em) and has no tie to the AD via MGC, they should be chided. I'm willing to bet there are only a few dozen of those people out there though.

For the rest of the 1000's of alumni out there in the DFW area, the Athletic Department (as a whole) must go out and provide a reason to come to / invest in their events.

[JesseMartin]

That's shocking.

OMG I didn't even notice that until your comment. WTF?!

[ForneyGreen]

Great comments on this post from folks who love the Mean Green.

My opinion... growth in attendance and support is driven primarily by excitement around a program, and excitement primarily comes from players and coaches.

That excitement can come from winning, but the winning needs to be at a level that is "huge news" (e.g. TCU going undefeated in 2010). While our 8-4 football record in 2013 was huge for us die-hards, it was only a fringe accomplishment in the eyes of most folks and wouldn't drive noticeable gains in attendance.

Excitement can also come from just 1 news-worthy player in a sport. Just think if we had a player come onto the scene like Trevone Boykin, Dak Prescott, Taysom Hill, etc. Having a player in the news and part of sports conversation instantly drives up attendance and excitement. Not all of those attending will become Mean Green die-hards, but some will get hooked on the program. During Lance Dunbar's senior year, I was able to get friends to UNT games simply by mentioning Lance because they wanted to see him. In 1988 (my sophomore year), people came to UNT games just to see Scott Davis because there was hype around him.

For all of RV's accomplishments in facilities, the lost years due to poor hiring of coaches in our major sports is his biggest downfall. If we can't generate a material increase in excitement around our programs over the next 2 years, I would say that it is time to make a change at AD. We'll see how the next 2 years go with Coach Mac, Benny, and Jalie.

[oldguystudent]

For all the crap being laid out at the athletic department in this thread, I would like to give recognition where it is due. Reggie Johnson is a stud. He has gone out of his way to make sure I ultimately get taken care of, even calling me on his day off to make sure I got what I needed after I had initial struggles. Reggie is one of the good ones.

[KRAM1]

For all the crap being laid out at the athletic department in this thread, I would like to give recognition where it is due. Reggie Johnson is a stud. He has gone out of his way to make sure I ultimately get taken care of, even calling me on his day off to make sure I got what I needed after I had initial struggles. Reggie is one of the good ones.

Agree with you completely. Reggie is a "keeper".

[Ben Gooding]

I received my first phone call from the ticket office today.

[GreenMachine]

That would be Only at NORTH TEXAS not Nirth Texas. Sorry...bad typing skills. And, I use the "Only at North Texas" line in direct response to those who use it to deride UNT and anything they can. If you don't even know who are peers are, well, I simply can't help you. Honest answer.

Is it who are peers are or is it who our peers are? Sorry... bad typing skills.

[GreenMachine]

I just see people saying that getting new leadership will suddenly make everything better. I could name a couple companies where getting a new CEO actually put the company in a worse position than before (Plano's JCPenney for one!). No one knows who would be the Athletic Department's new CEO and what that person will do and whether it will be beneficial or hurtful for all the programs here at North Texas.

I'm just tired of seeing people saying to get rid of RV and bringing in someone new as our next silver bullet when in truth no one knows what will actually happen.

and I could name a bunch of companies that were better off getting a new CEO. Bottom line, RV isn't a bad Ad but he certainly isn't a good one.

[Cerebus]

I've made an addition to the spreadsheet, the growth between 2002 and 2004. You can see that between those two dates we added 864 MGC members, and 4,285 season ticket holders.

Now, of course we need some context for this growth. The latest alumni numbers I have seen from the University state 300,000 alumni, with 225,000 of them living in the area. Of course most of those people became alumni long before the current AD was here.

Enrollment has grown from ~29,000 in 2002 to ~36,000 in 2014. Everyone of those students pays the Athletics Fee, but it's not by choice.

I think recent grads are the best metric to compare MGC growth. Unfortunately I don't have official numbers for the number of alumni who graduated between 2002 and 2014, but I do have numbers for 2008-2013¹. In those five the University awarded 41,102 degrees, an average of 8,220.4 degrees a year. Lets round that off to 8000 to be conservative (even though we know it's too low). I know 2014 degrees are "over 8000" but I don't have an official final number. So I think 8000 is an overly fair number per year for the last six years,

This still leaves us with no data official data for the first six years. We know enrollment grew about 24% over those years, so we could take that percentage off the average degrees awarded number, but I am going to be extremely conservative and say that we take off a full 50%. So lets assume for the first six years we awarded 4000 degrees per year.



That would leave us with an estimate of 72,000* degrees awarded 2002-2014. Again, I think that is a very low ball number, but I wanted to be conservative since we only have date for half the range.

We stated off with 211 MGC members in 2002. Some of those members stopped giving, some of them went to that great big stadium club in the sky. New members joined and by 2014 the MGC totaled 1075.

In the period of 2002-2014 the MGC grew by 864 members, while the university added (conservatively) ~72,000 new alumni.

If anyone has better data sources, or sees any flaw in my numbers or logic, please advise.








¹UNT Publication: Institutional Research and Effectiveness 2013-2014 Fact Book
*((8000x6)+(4000x6))

[ColoradoEagle]

In the period of 2002-2014 the MGC grew by 864 members, while the university added (conservatively) ~72,000 new alumni.

With the way this athletic department pats themselves on the back and writes up 'feel good' stories after all of our basketball and football losses, the resume bullet point there is:

• In his tenure as Athletic Director with the University of North Texas, Rick Villareal increased season ticket sales almost 400% and the number of athletics donors by over 500%!

[untjim1995]

Here's the problem with replacing RV...the BOR will choose someone who will toe their same line, but with even less knowledge or understanding of how things roll around here when it comes to athletics. RV isn't the problem--he is merely a large symptom of the actual illness. If we added 72,000 alumni in 12 years, while seeing growth in the MGC Club go up 864 people in the same time frame, at some point you need to ask yourself why that would be the case and what should we do about it, Instead, we ask this question--and only this question--did we stay in budget? If so, then ignore everything else. If not, issue a wrning or a firing immediately.

That's how you get extensions during a time when your revenue teams have just been putrid under your watch and your arm of fundraising has increased by 864 people in the same time the unviersity has graduated 72,000 people and the city and county you sit in have increased their populations by tens of thousands.

Again, until its not all about fixed costs that are known, RV will still be the AD until he doesn't want to be. The BOR wants a manager that keeps it in the black, not the red...that, my fellow GMG.com posters, is exactly who RV is, a bought man who does what he is told to do by his bosses. Nothing more, nothing less.

The BOR is your center--get into it and change their views, then you can begin to look at better AD replacements. Otherwise, it'll look a lot like it did when Johnny Jones and Hayden Fry left town--who can we get that won't cost much and will not complain publicly.

[JesseMartin]

Here's the problem with replacing RV...the BOR will choose someone who will toe their same line, but with even less knowledge or understanding of how things roll around here when it comes to athletics. RV isn't the problem--he is merely a large symptom of the actual illness. If we added 72,000 alumni in 12 years, while seeing growth in the MGC Club go up 864 people in the same time frame, at some point you need to ask yourself why that would be the case and what should we do about it, Instead, we ask this question--and only this question--did we stay in budget? If so, then ignore everything else. If not, issue a wrning or a firing immediately.

That's how you get extensions during a time when your revenue teams have just been putrid under your watch and your arm of fundraising has increased by 864 people in the same time the unviersity has graduated 72,000 people and the city and county you sit in have increased their populations by tens of thousands.

Again, until its not all about fixed costs that are known, RV will still be the AD until he doesn't want to be. The BOR wants a manager that keeps it in the black, not the red...that, my fellow GMG.com posters, is exactly who RV is, a bought man who does what he is told to do by his bosses. Nothing more, nothing less.

The BOR is your center--get into it and change their views, then you can begin to look at better AD replacements. Otherwise, it'll look a lot like it did when Johnny Jones and Hayden Fry left town--who can we get that won't cost much and will not complain publicly.

Haha...how did that get a -1?! It's pretty indisputable. Was somebody mad that he wasn't dogging Rick the whole time?

[GrandGreen]

Here's the problem with replacing RV...the BOR will choose someone who will toe their same line, but with even less knowledge or understanding of how things roll around here when it comes to athletics. RV isn't the problem--he is merely a large symptom of the actual illness. If we added 72,000 alumni in 12 years, while seeing growth in the MGC Club go up 864 people in the same time frame, at some point you need to ask yourself why that would be the case and what should we do about it, Instead, we ask this question--and only this question--did we stay in budget? If so, then ignore everything else. If not, issue a wrning or a firing immediately.

That's how you get extensions during a time when your revenue teams have just been putrid under your watch and your arm of fundraising has increased by 864 people in the same time the unviersity has graduated 72,000 people and the city and county you sit in have increased their populations by tens of thousands.

Again, until its not all about fixed costs that are known, RV will still be the AD until he doesn't want to be. The BOR wants a manager that keeps it in the black, not the red...that, my fellow GMG.com posters, is exactly who RV is, a bought man who does what he is told to do by his bosses. Nothing more, nothing less.

The BOR is your center--get into it and change their views, then you can begin to look at better AD replacements. Otherwise, it'll look a lot like it did when Johnny Jones and Hayden Fry left town--who can we get that won't cost much and will not complain publicly.

First, RV and most other AD's don't come close to keeping athletics in the black. That is why you normally see a budget line called institutional transfers that balances the budget. Second, if the BOR emphasis was on revenues, RV would be viewed very harshly not revered. Compared to most of NT's peers, NT falls way behind in donations and revenues generated from tickets sales despite first rate facilities.

I think you can actually make the opposite argument just as well that NT's progress is directly a result of the BOR being much more supportive than they were through the 1980's. Bobby Ray, C. Dan Smith are a couple that I would credit for lifting NT out of decades of athletic neglect, much more than the AD.

It also strikes me that some want to blame the BOR and/or the President for the current state of revenue sports at NT. Both of those entities have far more important responsibilities than just NT sports. The AD's only job is the leadership of the athletic program.

Having stated all the above, I don't think RV is here because he is strictly a "yes" man to the President or the BOR. Most people that keep their jobs try to do what their bosses want. I think past presidents have looked at the overall progress of the program and have been satisfied enough to retain the AD. The BOR in general is going to support the President's decisions.

Some forget that the majority of fans at least represented by the message board were fully in support of RV and generally credited him with all the good things that have happened and there have been many in his tenure. It is only in the past few years that RV's support has waned among the fans. It is entirely possible that has also occurred with the decision makers since RV's last contract. I think NT has got a President now that is going to make his own decisions and I doubt he is overly happy with football and basketball at this point.

[Harry]

Things change quickly. A year ago all was good and green after the big bowl win. What a difference a year makes.

[Ben Gooding]

Things change quickly. A year ago all was good and green after the big bowl win. What a difference a year makes.

No. There were several people with myself included that paraded around on this very message board stating that if momentum is not kept in the 2014 season then 2013 would virtually be a blip. Those very same people pointed out that 2014 was the year of ALL Mac recruits and we will see the real direction of this program. We can sugar coat everything if we want, but let's at least try and keep things in perspective. 2014 has happened and is now behind us. 2015 is very pivotal. If there is no fight shown and no progress visible it will almost be completely safe to say that Dan McCarney will leave UNT with 1 winning season under his belt. But until his departure we will be in a Benford-esque contract nightmare, thanks to our AD.

[Cerebus]

Things change quickly. A year ago all was good and green after the big bowl win. What a difference a year makes.

No. I think of it very much like the end of Dickey's run. There were some people who very unhappy (With DD it was lack off OOC success and his attitude, with RV it was MGC/attendence/baseball) but they really couldn't trumpet their concerns in the face of winning.

I remember telling you back then that DD was fine as long as he was winning, and when it stopped the long knives would come out. Well now JJ is gone and Mac has fallen back to the bottom of CUSA, and there is nothing to protect RV.

The fact is that Mac's coaching seat is starting to warm up, and Benford's is engulfed in flames. The thought of RV making the replacement hires is frankly terrifying to some of us.

[Cerebus]

Haha...how did that get a -1?! It's pretty indisputable. Was somebody mad that he wasn't dogging Rick the whole time?

Maybe cause it's a bad argument? Sure the BOR is very concerned with keeping athletics in budget. However the growth in MGC membership (864) is only 1.2% of the new alumni (72,000), and that's with completely writing off the couple hundred thousand alumni who graduated before that.

We would have hit the 3000 MGC club mark if we had gotten 3.8% of those brand new alumni to sigh, again writing off every one of the alumni before that.

Are you telling me it would be IMPOSSIBLE to find someone who could 1) keep athletics under budget, and 2) convert 3.8% of alumni to MGC members? I don't believe that.

Lets remember that 3000 MGC members would be less than 1% of all living alumni, less than 2% of alumni living in the area. It seems a low bar to me, but one that we haven't reach a full ten years after setting it.