UNT90

Cooley · April 5, 2015

What will it take for UNT's men's basketball program to make it to the Final Four?

UNT90 · April 5, 2015

Well, tomorrow is Easter Sunday.

So I guess if God wants it to happen, it shall be done.

Something tells me God has better priorities.

foutsrouts · April 5, 2015

What will it take for UNT's men's basketball program to make it to the Final Four?

Jesus at the point, David at SG, and Samson, Daniel and Moses down low.

CMJ · April 5, 2015

What will it take for UNT's men's basketball program to make it to the Final Four?

Krzyzewski?

Cooley · April 5, 2015

Next question to you CMJ

Coach K's base is about 4.7 million and about 6 million total compensation (after bonuses). What do we need to do in order to pay this type of salary? I'm guessing fill the Pit every night and possibly raise ticket prices, How do we fill the Pit every night?

CMJ · April 5, 2015

Next question to you CMJ

Coach K's base is about 4.7 million and about 6 million total compensation (after bonuses). What do we need to do in order to pay this type of salary? I'm guessing fill the Pit every night and possibly raise ticket prices, How do we fill the Pit every night?

Catch 22...we won't fill the Super Pit till we start winning big consistently. But you'd need that sort of cash coming in to pay a coach that kind of salary.

Obviously we're not gonna pay a coach 4.7 million a year. Hell, the only reason Duke is paying that is they have one of the five greatest coaches in the history of the game. I doubt they're gonna pay Capel (or whoever ends up taking over) that much.

Ben Gooding · April 5, 2015

I read somewhere that Coach K's annual salary with everything combined is 10 mil.

Well, as I have said on the football board, North Texas needs to find a sport to be nationally competitive in and dump all their eggs in that basket. Give the alum, students, etc a part of the year or a season if you will to actually look forward to rather than being mediocre (at best) completely across the board.

Cooley · April 5, 2015

During the Blakely era, average attendance was at least 5k; with crowds up to 10k. (Student enrollment was only 17k and Denton pop. of 40k) We had 3 consecutive 20+ seasons. If the NCAA tournament had more teams and definitely the NIT, we would have been in easily (with a couple of wins) Most top statewide recruits wanted to sign with NT, including Spud Webb. 2-3 losing seasons and we fired the coach.

Question for the older guys:

Would should we have done differently to sustain our success and possibly built on it?

drex · April 5, 2015

Sadly, I think Blakeley's health issues caused the program to slip some. He had major eye problems and it seems to me now to have caused him to lose his edge. Another three of four years of Blakeley in good health would have made a huge difference.

CMJ · April 5, 2015

We probably would have been in the NIT then (even with fewer teams) if they had the same selection process they do now.

Anecdote - my Mom (writer for the Daily) was in Blakeley's office when he got the call that we missed out on an NIT invitation the first 20 win campaign. She said he couldn't believe it.

UNT90 · April 5, 2015

During the Blakely era, average attendance was at least 5k; with crowds up to 10k. (Student enrollment was only 17k and Denton pop. of 40k) We had 3 consecutive 20+ seasons. If the NCAA tournament had more teams and definitely the NIT, we would have been in easily (with a couple of wins) Most top statewide recruits wanted to sign with NT, including Spud Webb. 2-3 losing seasons and we fired the coach.

Question for the older guys:

Would should we have done differently to sustain our success and possibly built on it?

I see where you are attempting to go here, but unfortunately the only thing Benford is responsible for here is turning a winner into a loser.

Immediately. Completely.

Don't try to compare his situation to any other, because it has never existed in college basketball. Ever.

Only at North Texas...

Edited April 5, 2015 by UNT90

Cooley · April 5, 2015

It's called history UNT90

I still remember the feeling I felt upon learning that we'd lost out in the NIT field. During one of Blakely's last seasons, we lost to a fundamentally sound and slower paced Texas Wesleyan squad. The AD was so impressed that he hired Tommy Newman away to replace the very charismatic Bill Blakely. Bill was fired

http://schoolctr.hebisd.edu/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=41542

The contrast in styles was so profound that Newman wasn't allowed to continue that style of play without winning. He was fired. The program wanted to restore the excitement provided by Blakely and hired a former assistant and highly successful high school coach Jimmy Gales (Dallas SOC). Gales was able to bring with him from SOC highly touted Ronnie Morgan. Gales was able to advance NT to its first NCAA tournament with a nationally televised tournament win over Northeast Louisiana on ESPN. Unable to build on this success, due in part to health issues of Ronnie Morgan and him subsequently leaving to play ball in Europe, Gales was fired.

The program further deteriorated with the hiring of Vic Trilli, a well-respected recruiter under Tom Penders (UT). He was fired The program didn't really flourish until the 6th season under Johnny Jones. JJ was rewarded early, with a contract extension, after double digit win seasons (.500 ball) from the Trilli era. In my opinion, it was the patience of the AD that paid dividends in the end.

It is with this as a backdrop that I contend that we should see what Tony Benford can do in his full 5 years. Is he the best that 400k can afford? Maybe not! We owe it to the long term success of the program to have some stability in the program. It took the revered JJ 6-years to field a very competitive team. Yeah, I like the foundation I see taking shape. (As long as the guys stick with the program). The last 2-3 scholarships will be key to just a .500 club or perennial CUSA championships. A run of championships will but more butts in seats and increase revenue to land the next tier coach (when and if necessary)

UNT90 · April 5, 2015

It's called history UNT90

I still remember the feeling I felt upon learning that we'd lost out in the NIT field. During one of Blakely's last seasons, we lost to a fundamentally sound and slower paced Texas Wesleyan squad. The AD was so impressed that he hired Tommy Newman away to replace the very charismatic Bill Blakely. Bill was fired

http://schoolctr.hebisd.edu/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=41542

The contrast in styles was so profound that Newman wasn't allowed to continue that style of play without winning. He was fired. The program wanted to restore the excitement provided by Blakely and hired a former assistant and highly successful high school coach Jimmy Gales (Dallas SOC). Gales was able to bring with him from SOC highly touted Ronnie Morgan. Gales was able to advance NT to its first NCAA tournament with a nationally televised tournament win over Northeast Louisiana on ESPN. Unable to build on this success, due in part to health issues of Ronnie Morgan and him subsequently leaving to play ball in Europe, Gales was fired.

The program further deteriorated with the hiring of Vic Trilli, a well-respected recruiter under Tom Penders (UT). He was fired The program didn't really flourish until the 6th season under Johnny Jones. JJ was rewarded early, with a contract extension, after double digit win seasons (.500 ball) from the Trilli era. In my opinion, it was the patience of the AD that paid dividends in the end.

It is with this as a backdrop that I contend that we should see what Tony Benford can do in his full 5 years. Is he the best that 400k can afford? Maybe not! We owe it to the long term success of the program to have some stability in the program. It took the revered JJ 6-years to field a very competitive team. Yeah, I like the foundation I see taking shape. (As long as the guys stick with the program). The last 2-3 scholarships will be key to just a .500 club or perennial CUSA championships. A run of championships will but more butts in seats and increase revenue to land the next tier coach (when and if necessary)

Of course you completely ignore that NONE of those coaches were left the riches that Benford was left.

NOT

A

ONE.

"The most talented team in UNT history" - UNT AD promo for Benford's first squad.

One of 3 mid majors to watch in a respected basketball preseason publications.

Consensus pick of Sun Belt coaches to win the Sun Belt West.

12-20. 2 losses to a 4 win ULM. Bottom third of the SUN BELT conference finish. Blowout loss in the first round of the conference tournament. Substitutions made about every minute. Panic on the bench. Lost respect of the players.

I really don't know whatever personal relationship that you have with Benford. Hell, maybe he was a Dallas ISD basketball product and that's why you have such a soft spot for him (I've seen that out of you with some player evaluations). Maybe you've gotten to know him on the AAU circuit or even through being a booster of the program, but what is painfully obvious is that your judgement is clouded when it comes to Benford, regardless of what causes those clouds to gather.

The fact that you want him to coach here a full 5 years without a new contract is damning evidence of this. Anyone who pays any attention to college basketball knows that he won't be able to recruit squat without a new contract after next season. coachong a 5th year without one would mean the loss of one full recruiting class.

Yet that's ok with you?

And speaking of recruiting, it took Benford until his third year to get a HS recruit to take the floor for UNT. At least one that didn't immediately bail because he hates playing for Benford.

That kind of recruiting OK with you?

You say you "like the foundation"? What foundation? There is one player one this roster that I would consider a "foundation" player.

ONE.

No one else has proven a damn thing. Can Reese average more than what he did at TAM and get along with his team? How long will it take the prized recruit to be able to contribute meaningfully (10 and 6 is a pipe dream as a freshman)? Does Benford even know how to develop this prized recruit? History... Real history that is applicable to the matter at hand... Says no.

Edited April 5, 2015 by UNT90

Cooley · April 5, 2015

UNT90, you continue to go on these rants without any substance whatsoever.

The original simple question, posed just to you was/is, what will it take for UNT men's basketball program to make it to the Final Four?

Answer: "So I guess if God wants it to happen, it shall be done

Translation: You don't have a clue!

None of the coaches were left with the riches that Benford inherited. WRONG!

Most pre-season publications are often wrong. (In all sports) I certainly didn't write or agree that that team (inherited) was the most talented ever "in school history". Bill Blakeley took over a more talented team (Added Weasel Johnson) and took the team from 4 wins to 22 his first year.

Fred Mitchell

Melvin "Lurch" Davis

Carl Jones

Terry Bailey

Kenneth Williams

Earl King

Danny Kaspar

Larry Spruell

UNT Football was predicted to do better this past year but fell short of expectations (with the same coach) Where's your rants?.

We're at an age where most teams are in a bowl game than are not.

What specifically will it take UNT90? What's your blueprint? If RV allowed you 1 hour with him in his office, what would you suggest (Other than fire the coach, fire the coach, fire the coach! I provided a brief historical overview of NT basketball. (from my perspective) What can we do (specifically) to advance the program? The bitching is tiring. Benford, in my opinion, is probably in the best position, at this time, to help the program over the next 2 years than anyone else. I'm fast approaching age 61. The cycle of firing coaches every 3-5 years has me wondering if I'll ever see a Sweet 16 or field of 32.

I don't know when you came on board, probably in 1990 right? You have not suffered more than myself and others with this program. (My first years at NTSU were the 20+ seasons where we average 96 & 87 points per game) I've enjoyed Legit Hall of Fame players) I chose not to jump off the ship when this program went down. I've witnessed high quality basketball. (Nationally ranked at one short time) Why would I want to accept anything less? It's because of this reason, and nothing else, that I want Benford to succeed. Don't know the man and am not emotionally attached one way or another. I just believe in giving the guy a chance like, realizing that it may take him 4-5 years. He either makes it or he doesn't.

It's make no sense for the AD to give a coach an extension when the guy is still being evaluated. Since he is still being evaluated, why fire him after year 2 or 3. I get the arguments that others programs do. UNT, has wasted so much in bought out salaries that it is an issue for us today. And yes, there are many coaches that go into their last year without a contract extension in hand.

Lastly, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you on record as supporting Derek Thompson as a first ballot Hall of Famer? Not to knock the kid but wasn't the majority of his career mediocrity? Are you happy with the job Dan McCarney has done in 4 years? (with twice the salary, budget, facilities and conference affiliation) If so, why?

UNT90 · April 5, 2015

UNT90, you continue to go on these rants without any substance whatsoever.

The original simple question, posed just to you was/is, what will it take for UNT men's basketball program to make it to the Final Four?

Answer: "So I guess if God wants it to happen, it shall be done

Translation: You don't have a clue!

None of the coaches were left with the riches that Benford inherited. WRONG!

Most pre-season publications are often wrong. (In all sports) I certainly didn't write or agree that that team (inherited) was the most talented ever "in school history". Bill Blakeley took over a more talented team (Added Weasel Johnson) and took the team from 4 wins to 22 his first year.

Fred Mitchell
Melvin "Lurch" Davis
Carl Jones
Terry Bailey
Kenneth Williams
Earl King
Danny Kaspar
Larry Spruell

UNT Football was predicted to do better this past year but fell short of expectations (with the same coach) Where's your rants?.
We're at an age where most teams are in a bowl game than are not.

What specifically will it take UNT90? What's your blueprint? If RV allowed you 1 hour with him in his office, what would you suggest (Other than fire the coach, fire the coach, fire the coach! I provided a brief historical overview of NT basketball. (from my perspective) What can we do (specifically) to advance the program? The bitching is tiring. Benford, in my opinion, is probably in the best position, at this time, to help the program over the next 2 years than anyone else. I'm fast approaching age 61. The cycle of firing coaches every 3-5 years has me wondering if I'll ever see a Sweet 16 or field of 32.

I don't know when you came on board, probably in 1990 right? You have not suffered more than myself and others with this program. (My first years at NTSU were the 20+ seasons where we average 96 & 87 points per game) I've enjoyed Legit Hall of Fame players) I chose not to jump off the ship when this program went down. I've witnessed high quality basketball. (Nationally ranked at one short time) Why would I want to accept anything less? It's because of this reason, and nothing else, that I want Benford to succeed. Don't know the man and am not emotionally attached one way or another. I just believe in giving the guy a chance like, realizing that it may take him 4-5 years. He either makes it or he doesn't.

It's make no sense for the AD to give a coach an extension when the guy is still being evaluated. Since he is still being evaluated, why fire him after year 2 or 3. I get the arguments that others programs do. UNT, has wasted so much in bought out salaries that it is an issue for us today. And yes, there are many coaches that go into their last year without a contract extension in hand.

Lastly, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you on record as supporting Derek Thompson as a first ballot Hall of Famer? Not to knock the kid but wasn't the majority of his career mediocrity? Are you happy with the job Dan McCarney has done in 4 years? (with twice the salary, budget, facilities and conference affiliation) If so, why?

This is just so all over the place.

Blakey has first year success, so that means we should give Benford more time? Benford DIDNT have first year success. If he had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It wasn't just a national publication, it was the UNT AD who called that team one of the most talented in UNT history. It was Sun Belt coaches that recognized that talent and unanimously picked UNT to win the Sun Belt West. I witnessed that abortion of a coaching job that was done from the 2nd row behind UNT's bench. I saw the man work, heard and watched him communicate with players and players react to that communication. It was PAINFULLY obvious he wasn't ready to be a head coach, and I don't know if he ever will be.

What the hell does football or Derek Thompson have to do with a basketball discussion??!

If I were AD, I would have fired Benford after year one. I would have gone to donors and told them I made a mistake (it happens in the hiring process) and asked them to correct it before it cost us what it has and is continuing to cost us.

I would have found a way to make this happen.

But we don't have an AD that works that way. And quite frankly, he probably NEEDS this hire to work out to save his own job. At least he would if he worked at a university that cared anything about its athletic programs.

Allowing 2 more years of failure puts us 2 more years from the kind of success you are looking for. End the aweful experiment like WKU did when they realized what a terrible hire they had made.

Is it asking too much to have standards equivalent to WKU?

Maybe so.

Let's re-address this next year at this time. If we have the exact same results next year (same record in and out of conference and a first round loss in the tourney), would you be in favor of bringing him back for a 5th year? With or wothout an extension?

I have a feeling we will be talking about yet another RV new hire this time next year.

Edited April 5, 2015 by UNT90

Cooley · April 5, 2015

I through man. Thought I'd try to give you another shot. You don't have any plans.

UNT90 · April 5, 2015

I through man. Thought I'd try to give you another shot. You don't have any plans.

It's not my freaking job to have a plan, dude! What about that don't you get.

I told you I would have fired Benford after year one.

I also can't have a plan while Benford is still head coach.

Jeez.

Edited April 6, 2015 by UNT90

Rudy · April 6, 2015

Ok, Cooley, this one is for you. What would it take for you to fire Benford?

flyonthewall · April 6, 2015

Do you even know the reason wku fired that coach? Because it had little to do with basketball.

UNT90 · April 6, 2015

Do you even know the reason wku fired that coach? Because it had little to do with basketball.

That's what you take out of this?

And it had a lot to do with basketball.

He was replaced Jan. 6, 2012 after a 5-11 start to the season...

After a declining record in each of the previous two years (from the year before)...

Standards... Sun Belt style...

Edited April 6, 2015 by UNT90

CMJ · April 6, 2015

Do you even know the reason wku fired that coach? Because it had little to do with basketball.

I guess you're referring to the rumors of his womanizing ways looking bad. I'm sorry, that would not have been a problem (if it even existed at all....could have been trumped up just because the fanbase wanted him out so badly) if he was 15-1...not 5-11. Any, and all issues that WKU fans were throwing out on hilltopperhaven would have been ignored if he were winning at the time.

Edited April 6, 2015 by CMJ

UNT90 · April 6, 2015

Do you even know the reason wku fired that coach? Because it had little to do with basketball.

And, interestingly enough, McDonald's first season was 2008, when he took over a sweet 16 team from the year before. Guess what HE didn't do? HE didn't go 12-20. He won conference title and tournament and then beat Illinios in the NCAA tournament then lost to Gonzaga by 2, barely missing a return to the sweet 16.

Yet he was fired a mere 3 years later because WKU was smart enough to realize there was a problem and FIXED THE PROBLEM.

Something we continue to refuse to do at UNT do to an AD needing to defend his job.

Wonderful.

The standards at UNT are unbelievable low, and it's unbelievable that many are fine with it. That's why the same 30 to 45 of us argue about stupid crap. That's why the MGC numbers are an embarassment for a university our size that plays at the FCS level or above (yes, the FCS level). That's why were ARE NOT a sleeping giant, we are just sleeping, and have been for decades.

If there isn't a huge change, the coma will continue, and only about 50 of us will care.

Edited April 6, 2015 by UNT90

Harry · April 6, 2015

Truth lies somewhere in the middle.. guy was not horrible from a win loss perspective but not up to WKU expectations. He also had a LOT of off the court issues which didn't help. Both sides tend to exaggerate the story that best matches their talking points. Our WKU friend Dahbeed could probably shed some light on this for the record but honestly that was years ago and it's getting old and overused around here. I tend to agree with CMJ in that had he been blowing up the win column they would have been fine with him staying (see John Calipari, Boheim etc).

The fact of the matter is that Mac and Benford are not going anywhere and if you base your UNT fandom on coaches and AD's, then you may have what you believe to be a pretty valid excuse to check out. The rest of us are simply looking for threads and signs of hope. 2013 gave us a lot of it in football and 2014 sucked donkey balls. Benford's record has been disappointing -- however the man is still able to recruit at a pretty high level as evidenced by Jeremy Combs and hopefully the two he has on board already this period. he REALLY needs to kill with these remaining 2-3 open ship spots. I think he realizes this.

The truth is 2015-16 will tell the UNT Athletics tale. Both programs will need to win but more importantly provide some hope for the future. If Mac rebounds and Benford finally has a competitive team we could be back in business and that doesn't make you less of a fan for hoping for that. If they do not I would expect pretty major changes across the board. To advocate for them to happen sooner is just being unrealistic and being somewhat of a broken record. Please understand, the nuclear option will not guarantee positive results and you are looking at a minimum of 2-3 years to rebuild both programs. I think a lot of the ire on both Mac and Benford is we are past that threshold and not yet where we wanted to be. Rebuilding sucks and I sometimes wonder how positive the haters will be on here during those painful rebuilding years (Not VERY).

The woman's basketball situation angers me a little because I think Peterson checked out at our expense. However, in the whole scheme of things women's basketball is not a big piece of the pie and somewhat window dressing to the two major sports. I would like to see baseball rekindled as I think the loss of that has added to the dark clouds around the program right now.

UNT90 · April 6, 2015

Truth lies somewhere in the middle.. guy was not horrible from a win loss perspective but not up to WKU expectations. He also had a LOT of off the court issues which didn't help. Both sides tend to exaggerate the story that best matches their talking points. Our WKU friend Dahbeed could probably shed some light on this for the record but honestly that was years ago and it's getting old and overused around here. I tend to agree with CMJ in that had he been blowing up the win column they would have been fine with him staying (see John Calipari, Boheim etc).

The fact of the matter is that Mac and Benford are not going anywhere and if you base your UNT fandom on coaches and AD's, then you may have what you believe to be a pretty valid excuse to check out. The rest of us are simply looking for threads and signs of hope. 2013 gave us a lot of it in football and 2014 sucked donkey balls. Benford's record has been disappointing -- however the man is still able to recruit at a pretty high level as evidenced by Jeremy Combs and hopefully the two he has on board already this period. he REALLY needs to kill with these remaining 2-3 open ship spots. I think he realizes this.

The truth is 2015-16 will tell the UNT Athletics tale. Both programs will need to win but more importantly provide some hope for the future. If Mac rebounds and Benford finally has a competitive team we could be back in business and that doesn't make you less of a fan for hoping for that. If they do not I would expect pretty major changes across the board. To advocate for them to happen sooner is just being unrealistic and being somewhat of a broken record. Please understand, the nuclear option will not guarantee positive results and you are looking at a minimum of 2-3 years to rebuild both programs. I think a lot of the ire on both Mac and Benford is we are past that threshold and not yet where we wanted to be. Rebuilding sucks and I sometimes wonder how positive the haters will be on here during those painful rebuilding years (Not VERY).

The woman's basketball situation angers me a little because I think Peterson checked out at our expense. However, in the whole scheme of things women's basketball is not a big piece of the pie and somewhat window dressing to the two major sports. I would like to see baseball rekindled as I think the loss of that has added to the dark clouds around the program right now.

Basketball isn't being rebuilt, it's being deconstructed.

Actively.

It was built when Benford arrived.

Nothing would make me happier than to have a winning football season and a 20 win basketball season (not real hard to do when you are playing 30 some odd games a year).

Problem is, I have never felt so hopeless about 2 upcoming seasons as I do about 2015 football and 2015-16 basketball. EVERYTHING would have to go right for either of these 2 programs to meet the above standards.

And another year of waiting for the inevitable crappy season is just another year longer we have to wait for hoped for success after the inevitable coaching change (speaking about basketball here) that will come after next season.

UNTLifer · April 6, 2015

Guess I qualify as an older alum. I watched the Blakely teams as a 10 to 12 year old and loved going to The Pit. I would have hired Billy Tubbs to follow Blakely.