Setting the record straight on UNT fraternity’s Rebel flag

[Harry]

In a Sunday column in which I said forgiveness was due to two former University of Oklahoma students who lead their fraternity brothers in a racist chant, I recalled my own university days decades ago when one fraternity’s members regularly flew their Confederate battle flag and were often accused of overt racial incidents.

Today, I need to offer my own apology to the now-much-maligned Sigma Alpha Epsilon and ask for members’ forgiveness, for I relied too much on my memory — which failed me. And while memory is a great attribute for a journalist, it must always be confirmed through written documentation or other corroborating sources.

That is something I know, and something I usually do.

As I wrote the passage saying SAE displayed the so-called Rebel flag, it occurred to me to check my college yearbook because, as associate editor in charge of the section on organizations (including Greeks), I distinctly remember choosing a photo of fraternity members with the flag at the homecoming football game.

I did not consult that yearbook, which, although inconvenient on the highest level of my tall home office bookshelf, was available to me.

Then I got what was a terse message with a pointed question from a fellow alumnus of the University of North Texas.

Jim Dixon was polite, introducing himself as one who used to listen to my talk radio show, and the founding president of the SAE chapter at UNT. He asked, “When was this display [of the Confederate flag]?”

He added, “As I was the chapter’s founding president and its chapter advisor for a number of years, I would like to hear of the time period in which this obviously historical and controversial type of behavior occurred.”

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/bob-ray-sanders/article17048420.html

[wardly]

The flag shown by K.A.'s in your picture is not the Confederate flag but instead is the battle flag of The Army of Northern Virginia. The Confederate flag was simular to the North's "Stars and Stripes" except that it was "Stars and Bars". Because they looked so much alike at a distance, some Confederate armies flew the battle flag in an effort to prevent confusion. Early in the was many southern armies wore blue uniforms that had been worn by state military units, so "friendly fire" was not uncommon.

[adman]

The flag shown by K.A.'s in your picture is not the Confederate flag but instead is the battle flag of The Army of Northern Virginia. The Confederate flag was simular to the North's "Stars and Stripes" except that it was "Stars and Bars". Because they looked so much alike at a distance, some Confederate armies flew the battle flag in an effort to prevent confusion. Early in the was many southern armies wore blue uniforms that had been worn by state military units, so "friendly fire" was not uncommon.

Never knew it. Thanks for pointing that out. For those interested here is an interesting article about how and why it came to be considered the flag of the Confederacy.

http://www.americancivilwarstory.com/confederate-flag.html

[Mean Green 93-98]

It was also the flag of the Confederate Navy.

[FirefightnRick]

Conferederate Battle Flag that flies in front of every public building in the State of Texas.

Rick

Edited April 1, 2015 by FirefightnRick

[CMJ]

I love Civil War history, both Union and Confederate. It's one of my favorite time periods to read about - I have biographies of basically all the important Generals from Grant and Lee to ones more off the beaten path like Beauregard and Pope. Ken Burns' series is just about my favorite documentary ever.

That said, people need to quit flying the freaking Confederate Battle flag. Not because it represents oppression (though it does), but because it represents insurrection against the US government.

[UNTFan23]

Conferederate Battle Flag that flies in front of every public building in the State of Texas.

Rick

Not correct but thanks for playing.

[All About UNT]

The flag shown by K.A.'s in your picture is not the Confederate flag but instead is the battle flag of The Army of Northern Virginia. The Confederate flag was simular to the North's "Stars and Stripes" except that it was "Stars and Bars". Because they looked so much alike at a distance, some Confederate armies flew the battle flag in an effort to prevent confusion. Early in the was many southern armies wore blue uniforms that had been worn by state military units, so "friendly fire" was not uncommon.

Not to nitpick but the Army of NV flag is similar in design but is in fact a square shape.

The flag most often seen flown (like the one in the KA pic) is actually the Army of Tennessee flag which is of the same design but in a rectangular pattern

See below:

[NorthTexan95]

That said, people need to quit flying the freaking Confederate Battle flag. Not because it represents oppression (though it does), but because it represents insurrection against the US government.

No, it's represents the paint job of the General Lee from the Dukes of Hazzard.

[oldguystudent]

That said, people need to quit flying the freaking Confederate Battle flag. Not because it represents oppression (though it does), but because it represents insurrection against the US government.

False! I think you've let that Los Angeles hippie juice go to your head, son.

[MeanGreenTexan]

False! I think you've let that Los Angeles hippie juice go to your head, son.

I've seen/heard this type of argument many, many times. To me, it's the dumbest argument ever. Flying this flag is THE way to show your "Southern Heritage"? (not pointed at you Oldguy, just ranting)

[oldguystudent]

(not pointed at you Oldguy, just ranting)

I should hope not. I'm about as southern as clam chowder. The whole civil war thing where I'm from is hardly more than a footnote in fourth grade history.

[UNT90]

I should hope not. I'm about as southern as clam chowder. The whole civil war thing where I'm from is hardly more than a footnote in fourth grade history.

Get out.

Now.

[UNTDoubleAlum]

Though I didn't always feel this way, I really don't feel like there is any way to justify using that flag, whether in history or the present. Even using it as an example of southern pride seems folly. I never had a History professor (and my first degree is in History) that would have agreed that the Civil War was waged for anything more than slavery. Sure, you can claim "states rights" all you want, so long as you understand it was the "state right" to slavery. If the entire separation of half of our country, and the flags that it flew, were created under the auspices of thinking slavery was a good idea, then I'll pass on that flag, as proud as I am to be from the part of the country I am from.

[wardly]

Great post by UNTDOUBLEALUM.Also thanks to All About UNT for correcting my error in attributing battle flag to Virginia instead of Army of Tennessee.Thats what I enjoy about history, and if I am an American of color I would be offended about what I consider not to be a source of southern pride but of slaver. The south had a cast system simular to England, and if they had won the war I probably would be pumping gas.

[oldguystudent]

Get out.

Now.

Nah, the hippie coast has happily moved on without me. Nothing to go back to. Besides, if I want to experience the joys of severe drought, I can just stay here.

[Censored by Laurie]

did you guys know that the swastika is an ancient symbol used by many eastern religions...often representing God, eternity or the heart?

[oldguystudent]

did you guys know that the swastika is an ancient symbol used by many eastern religions...often representing God, eternity or the heart?

Why yes. Yes I did. Imagine the shock the first time I happened upon a very small temple in Korea that looked like an apartment with a swastika in the window. Thing is, their swastikas are generally a mirror image of the Hitler variety. Hitler's swastika looks like four letters S. Buddha's swastika looks like for numbers 7.

[foutsrouts]

That said, people need to quit flying the freaking Confederate Battle flag. Not because it represents oppression (though it does), but because it represents insurrection against the US government.

Sometimes rebellion against government policies and such can be a positive thing, and I'm not directing that thought specifically at the Confederate flag or the Civil War. Our founding fathers based the Constitution upon that premise.

[FirefightnRick]

Not correct but thanks for playing.

Yes it is. Hood's regiment flew precisely the exact same thing outside of battle recognition letters and the star slightly tilted.

Rick

[Aldo]

In case someone needed a refresher

From a report (2000) from the Georgia state senate. One instance of resistance in the South against the Brown v Board of Education ruling. See also: George Wallace.

Despite some nonracist uses, the Dixiecrat, segregationist, and Klan uses of the flag by that time had distorted the flag’s connection with the Confederate nation and its soldiers. The raising of the battle flag over the capitols is clear – intimidation of those who would enforce integration and a statement of firm resolve to resist integration. Likewise, when the battle flag was incorporated into the Georgia state flag, the state was in a desperate situation to preserve segregation. Resisting, avoiding, undermining, and circumventing integration was the 1956 General Assembly’s primary objective. The adoption of the battle flag was an integral, albeit small, part of this resistance. The 1956 state flag, as Representative Denmark Groover so clearly stated, “...will serve notice that we intend to uphold what we stood for, will stand for, and will fight for.” Nearly four decades later, former Representative James Mackay, who voted against changing the flag in 1956, explained that “there was only one reason for putting that flag on there. Like the gun rack in the back of a pickup truck, it telegraphs a message.”

[UNTFan23]

Yes it is. Hood's regiment flew precisely the exact same thing outside of battle recognition letters and the star slightly tilted.

Rick

A flag used by a military regiment is far from an official state flag. It's really no different then the patches military members where on their uniforms.

[FirefightnRick]

A flag used by a military regiment is far from an official state flag. It's really no different then the patches military members where on their uniforms.

If you want to have some fun though, especially if your standing next to one of those typical emotional types that bring their feelings and emotions to work and the voting booth......just make the statement...."Hey!....can you believe someone just put a Confederate Battle Flag on the flag pole out front?"....and watch 'me torque off over it. It's pretty entertaining for a few minutes.

Rick

[CMJ]

Sometimes rebellion against government policies and such can be a positive thing, and I'm not directing that thought specifically at the Confederate flag or the Civil War. Our founding fathers based the Constitution upon that premise.

I would argue that is slightly different considering we were a set of colonies trying to throw off the yoke of the motherland.

The South was a voting member in everything. The only reason they were "oppressed" is because they were wrong...and outnumbered. When you don't have the votes in a democracy, you can't always get what you want. Taking the football and going home, which is what South Carolina started, would have hurt the concept of representative democracy the world over.

[UNTDoubleAlum]

If you want to have some fun though, especially if your standing next to one of those typical emotional types that bring their feelings and emotions to work and the voting booth......just make the statement...."Hey!....can you believe someone just put a Confederate Battle Flag on the flag pole out front?"....and watch 'me torque off over it. It's pretty entertaining for a few minutes.

Rick

Those stupid emotions, those are only useful for women and foreigners.......