Football's Value to a University

Mean Green 93-98 · March 24, 2015

The Flutie Effect refers to the Hail Mary pass thrown by Doug Flutie to beat Miami in 1984. In the aftermath, BC applications went up 30 percent. The private Catholic flagship went to a new, different, better level.

The Eagles have played 19 of their 24 bowl games since that pass. In the 79 years of the AP poll, BC has been ranked in the final Top 25 22 times. Thirteen of those occurrences came between 1984-2007. It can be argued the school is in the ACC today (after the leaving the Big East) because of that higher profile....

Boise State had its own "Fiesta Bowl Effect", enhancing its image -- as well as enrollment and research grants -- following the 2007 upset of Oklahoma.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/25120793/despite-uab-debacle-football-a-must-have-for-status-hungry-schools

akriesman · March 24, 2015

This comment by one of the message posters ruffles my Eagle feathers. Never say Never.

"There is the opposite of the Flutie Effect. Houston is seen as a loser school due to losing to NC State. Memphis is seen as a loser school due to having its NCAA final four appearance taken away due to cheating. Schools like North Texas, San Jose State, Troy will never have lighting strike but will always been seen as losers. The schools that drop sports to focus on academics will be the first schools to appeal to the cord cutting future."

GreenTexan13 · March 24, 2015

^ Yeah that same guy posted this, "Look at the attendance of the schools that play in the MAC, Conference USA, or Sun Belt. Even the students of those schools do not care about the football teams. Does anyone really believe that there is a single student at Ohio University, Troy, or North Texas due to the failures of the football team?". I guarantee you this guy has never seen the student section of some of these teams, including UNT. I think Alumni cause the emptier stadium issue then the students....

GreenMachine · March 24, 2015

the answer is to have a strong music dept

drex · March 24, 2015

DROP FOOTBALL AND DROP OUT OF SIGHT..ASK UTA.

oldguystudent · March 24, 2015

I've been dragging my kid to UNT football games since she was 7 years old, so she's literally grown up with them.

As she enters high school, and starts more seriously pondering her future college prospects, the existence or lack thereof of a football is absolutely the last thing on her mind. She's looking at college as an investment of time and money, and she wants the biggest payback she can get from it for the least amount of out of pocket expense (Dad's been counseling her on student debt as he begrudgingly writes his own checks to SallieMae of $544 each month).

I love UNT football. Can't really imagine life in Texas without it anymore.

But my kid gets in to MIT and UNT, both offering full rides, she's very unlikely to stick around in Denton. Hell, let's throw Ohio State and Alabama in there. She's still gonna choose Cambridge.

More realistic level, let's say she gets into UTD and UNT. All other things being equal, she's gonna go to the place that pays her back with the most opportunity. Maybe that includes football, maybe it doesn't. Maybe both choices lead to the first two years at community college for 1/10th the price.

Maybe we're just weird, but college is getting too expensive to be paying $40,000 annual premiums just to watch a bunch of guys running around beating on each other six times a year.

NOW RAISE THE STUDENT FEE!

UNT90 · March 24, 2015

I've been dragging my kid to UNT football games since she was 7 years old, so she's literally grown up with them.

As she enters high school, and starts more seriously pondering her future college prospects, the existence or lack thereof of a football is absolutely the last thing on her mind. She's looking at college as an investment of time and money, and she wants the biggest payback she can get from it for the least amount of out of pocket expense (Dad's been counseling her on student debt as he begrudgingly writes his own checks to SallieMae of $544 each month).

I love UNT football. Can't really imagine life in Texas without it anymore.

But my kid gets in to MIT and UNT, both offering full rides, she's very unlikely to stick around in Denton. Hell, let's throw Ohio State and Alabama in there. She's still gonna choose Cambridge.

More realistic level, let's say she gets into UTD and UNT. All other things being equal, she's gonna go to the place that pays her back with the most opportunity. Maybe that includes football, maybe it doesn't. Maybe both choices lead to the first two years at community college for 1/10th the price.

Maybe we're just weird, but college is getting too expensive to be paying $40,000 annual premiums just to watch a bunch of guys running around beating on each other six times a year.

NOW RAISE THE STUDENT FEE!

5 times a year...

Christopher Walker · March 25, 2015

the answer is to have a strong music dept

Ugh. Give it a rest. The College of Music and it's excellence has very little if nonexistent bearing on the failures of the AD. Your pissy-ness is misguided.

GreenMachine · March 25, 2015

Ugh. Give it a rest. The College of Music and it's excellence has very little if nonexistent bearing on the failures of the AD. Your pissy-ness is misguided.

just yanking some chains, thanks for playing.

ForneyGreen · March 25, 2015

I've been dragging my kid to UNT football games since she was 7 years old, so she's literally grown up with them.

As she enters high school, and starts more seriously pondering her future college prospects, the existence or lack thereof of a football is absolutely the last thing on her mind.

Same situation with my son who will start his college career this Fall and most likely will attend a school other than UNT. The sports programs (or lack thereof) at a school seem to have no bearing on his decision.

But here's the cool thing... he has been raised around UNT sports, wears Mean Green apparel, and loves the Mean Green. The Mean Green are his college teams, and I think that will always be the case, just like the Cowboys will always be his NFL team.

All of that being said, I definitely agree that winning and all of the publicity around high-profile victories (especially football) may be the best overall marketing tool for a school, especially at the state and national levels. The value of having your school mentioned as a winner in the media is tremendous.

oldguystudent · March 25, 2015

So maybe the question we should be asking is this:

What would make you as a parent strongly push your child to attend UNT over all other options?

Think long and hard about what your priorities are on that.

97and03 · March 25, 2015

I think your scenario above is a non-starter. MIT vs UNT? Duh, unless they want to play jazz trumpet that choice is obvious. I think the more realistic question would be UNT vs TxSt or UH or even Tech. Not a lot of difference in Tech and UNT, but tons of kids go there because it has that 'big time' label with Big12 sports. Even your MIT vs Alabama is silly. Anyone who knows anything about academics knows that Alabama most SEC schools in generally are not very strong academic schools. (Now most of the Big10, that is a totally different story).

I think the effect comes in when kids and parents are considering similar schools. Even if a kid isn't into football or basketball, they may have lots of friends that are and get excited about a school because of the buzz.

I remember what George Mason experienced after its tournament run a few years ago. It was pretty amazing. I would almost 100% guarantee they didn't steal any kids away from MIT or Stanford, but both the number and quality of their applications went up dramatically. If UNT were to capture that type of attention, we wouldn't be keeping your kid in state if she had a MIT scholarship in hand, but some kids that might have decided on OKSt, Tech, or Colorado might decide to stay home.

Edited March 25, 2015 by 97and03

oldguystudent · March 25, 2015

I think your scenario above is a non-starter. MIT vs UNT? Duh, unless they want to play jazz trumpet that choice is obvious. I think the more realistic question would be UNT vs TxSt or UH or even Tech. Not a lot of difference in Tech and UNT, but tons of kids go there because it has that 'big time' label with Big12 sports. Even your MIT vs Alabama is silly. Anyone who knows anything about academics knows that Alabama most SEC schools in generally are not very strong academic schools. (Now most of the Big10, that is a totally different story).

I think the effect comes in when kids and parents are considering similar schools. Even if a kid isn't into football or basketball, they may have lots of friends that are and get excited about a school because of the buzz.

I remember what George Mason experienced after its tournament run a few years ago. It was pretty amazing. I would almost 100% guarantee they didn't steal any kids away from MIT or Stanford, but both the number and quality of their applications went up dramatically. If UNT were to capture that type of attention, we wouldn't be keeping your kid in state if she had a MIT scholarship in hand, but some kids that might have decided on OKSt, Tech, or Colorado might decide to stay home.

Did you read far enough down to get to the UNT vs UTD scenario?

Mean Green 93-98 · March 25, 2015

So maybe the question we should be asking is this:

What would make you as a parent strongly push your child to attend UNT over all other options?

Think long and hard about what your priorities are on that.

Other than cost, i.e., "It's all we can afford," I don't know what parent here would do that.

97and03 · March 25, 2015

Did you read far enough down to get to the UNT vs UTD scenario?

Yes and it should depend on two things: what the kid wants to study abd what they want out of their college experience. I have worked as an advisor at both so this example is a good example actually. UTD is a very strong science and engineering school. Superior to UNT. But be damned if I would tell a kid to go there for history or English lit., etc. Those departments were barely existent as far as I am concerned. Same for music and fine arts.

Regarding the second question I posed, UNT has UTD beat hands down on college experience and not only due to sports. Residence life, clubs, pretty much everything. When I worked their in 2007 they didn't even have a dorm. (They do now.)

Where UTD does kick UNT's butt up and down the court is funding. They give their top students cold hard cash to attend UTD.

So the "average" parent might steer their kid towards whichever school mirrors what they experienced or wish they had experienced. Which is why UTD was filled primarily with Asian and South Asian kids with parents that insisted they be either a doctor or engineer. Or kids that lived nearby. It was a choice of proximity and/or academic excellence.

A UNT alum might encourage their child to UNT over UTD because they enjoyed the experience and what the kid to have fun while they go to college. Or because going to UTD to be a theater or RTVF major just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Edited March 25, 2015 by 97and03

akriesman · March 25, 2015

True conversation I had with my 15 year old son last weekend:

Son: I think that I want to major in Engineering.

Me: Well, you have some pretty good schools in the area. UTA is pretty good and ranked in the top 100..

Son: But, UTA is not a real college.

Me: Why would you say that.

Son: Because I never hear about them. Their football team must be bad.

Me: What about North Texas ? Is it a real college ?

Son: Yes, one of my friends wears a North Texas sweatshirt.

Perception is everything.

Ben Gooding · March 25, 2015

Football is big and in the grand scheme of things can do perceptual and financial things for a university that nothing else really can. We can throw out exceptions from people's own kids, but a couple kids is just a tiny, micro sample of the big picture. And the big picture tells us that solid football does fantastic things school wide.

untjim1995 · March 25, 2015

So maybe the question we should be asking is this:

What would make you as a parent strongly push your child to attend UNT over all other options?

Think long and hard about what your priorities are on that.

This is a great question.

I'd like to go with the advantage of UNT first,

1.) Its close.

2.) Its a good bargain for the price--kids can live at home or live relatively cheaper in Denton than in College Station, Norman, or Austin.

3.) Good educational reputation in DFW--if kids want to stay in this area, they get some in-roads from emplyers who know UNT produces solid graduates in many fields

4.) We have athletics, unlike other local options--UTA or UTD

The disadvantages, at least to me:

1.) UNT will never give off a true big-time college atmosphere for athletics, like at other P5 places or even some non-P5s--this is a true bonding experience for those alums of these schools

2.) UNT's overall rankings in public perception are as a regional school, except for music, which isn't a huge money maker--we can argue on who gets rated higher in those lists, but it does add to our public perception of being a diploma mill

3.) We will always have a large percentage of the student body who just come here because its easy to get in, easy to go back home to DFW, and never plan to step back on campus ever again--large public universities in metro areas always have that issue.

It will always be up to my kids where they want to go, but it wil almost ocmpletely boil down to whether they want to stay close to home or at home during college or if they want to go away for a more traditional college experience. If you want to major in something, there are always great places to earn a degree from, no matter the choice. But I do think that many DFW kids look at UNT as a last resort option because of its closeness--thus the community college feel that has pervaded Denton for so long. And the administration loves the "cheaper" cost of attendance, just because it keeps job security at a higher level for the faculty and employees of the university.

I do wonder how different my college years would feel as I look back on the last 20 years since I graduated if I had gone to a P5 school like so many of my buddies did at A&M, UT, Tech, Baylor, OU, LSU, Arkansas, OSU, KU, KSU, and others. I can't imagine how cool it must have been to have gone to A&M when they beat top ranked Nebraska at Kyle Field in the late 90s or being a UT alum when they beat USC to wint he national championship. Same with being an Arkansas or KU grad when they won national titles in basketball. Or being like Baylor or Tech when they played and beat some top echelon team that thye get to play every year. None of it adds to a degree value, per se, but it does add value to the connection of the university and its "family" to you, both personally and professionally. When I meet a UNT alum and tell them I went there, very rarely does it involve anything about athletics or anything more special than I went to school there while I worked and havent been back since. Athletics does that at other places, often in a big way. Here, it doesn't even move the needle, unless you are talking to a fellow gmg.com member. And that is why I would encourage my child to realy look hard at where they want to go to school--the major matters first, but the experience matters a close second. And particularly for boys, athletics is what defines that experience the most.

oldguystudent · March 25, 2015

I do wonder how different my college years would feel as I look back on the last 20 years since I graduated if I had gone to a P5 school

Yeah, I didn't go to a school with a football team, but...we were on the beach. We had plenty of bonding experiences that didn't involve a stadium.

I did always kinda wonder what it would be like to go to a school with football, but I don't feel robbed of a college experience in any way.

Did I mention I went to college on the beach? Where it's 70 degrees in January?

But I'll never send my kid to that place either unless she gets a full ride. They've jacked up the price some 1000% (not hyperbole, actual number) since my time there.

ColoradoEagle · March 25, 2015

I would actively discourage any hypothetical kids I have from going to UNT. Don't get me wrong, I loved my time there and Denton is a great town.

That said, the level of apathy at the school is not limited to the athletic programs, it exists at every level. Students are apathetic about going there, faculty is apathetic about being there, Denton is apathetic about the school existing, etc.

I like UNT. I'll probably always cheer for football and basketball no matter how bad they get. I do think I had a decent education. Things need to seriously change with the administration, though. Maybe the new Union will jar something loose.

Cerebus · March 25, 2015

Some of you are short selling UNT just because you picked the wrong major. There are plenty of programs that are national power house programs, even outside of the music school.

I originally came to Denton because when it came to Computer Graphics/Games Design the two leading schools in the nation were UNT and Purdue. I in no way shape or form was interested in Indiana winters. The games development program is still a monster that places students all over the industry.

Now there are some programs that aren't great, that is the same at every institution.

Some of you are also misunderstanding just because you or your kid have a clear idea of what they want to do and where to go to school for that, that doesn't mean everyone is like that. A ton of kids will have no real idea where to go or what they want to do and name recognition (brought about in large part by sports) goes a long way.

Cerebus · March 25, 2015

That said, the level of apathy at the school is not limited to the athletic programs, it exists at every level. Students are apathetic about going there, faculty is apathetic about being there, Denton is apathetic about the school existing, etc.

I just have to disagree with this. There may be apathy at a lot of level about athletics. That doesn't extend to academics.

In just the last decade or so UNT's Military History program went from almost no existent to the strongest program west of the Mississippi. UNT's faculty are constantly being asked to teach at the top institution in the world because they are the best of the best.

That didn't happen over night, and it didn't happen without a lot of great leadership, planning and execution. Sure, there isn't a forum for it on this board, Dale Hansen doesn't have a weekly History Wrap-up Program, and UNT90 isn't sending out daily diatribes about improving visiting professor schedules, but it's a huge important part of UNT as an academic entity.

Stop letting the under performance of the athletic program color your vision of the rest of the University.

MeanGreenWithEnvy · March 25, 2015

Setting aside the discussion about UNT, that article is a mess.

"A Harvard professor found..." This smells like something the author heard second-hand in an elevator or read on a bulletin board. If he's going to make the findings of this study central to his article, CITE IT. I know CBSsports.com isn't a peer-reviewed academic journal, but c'mon.

GreenTexan13 · March 25, 2015

I definitely agree with Cerebus. UNT also has one of the best Forensic Science programs in the world to add to the argument against UNT being a degree mill and just a music school. whenever I have kids, I definitely wouldn't discourage them from attending the University their dad went to. I do agree with some of you that the thoughts of (what if) I went to a powerhouse school has crossed my mind more then once. I have siblings that are all attending Arkansas for college and when I go and visit them at Fayetteville, it definitely is a Pure university town culture, atmosphere, and spirit then Denton/UNT. However, I think that UNT is still a great school to go to. There is that college lifestyle here and I am proud to have earned my degree at this University. To add to this topic, is does hurt that us UNT fans can't hold a conversation about sports (especially football) with people who graduated from a Powerhouse school. I would love to walk into a conversation and talk about how UNT upset Tennessee or Iowa. I would love to go visit other areas in Texas and see UNT T-shirt fans walking around like you see ATM or UT T-shirt fans. Maybe that day will come? Maybe it won't? But I would never discourage someone going to UNT, and especially my own kids.

Harry · March 25, 2015

This is such an interesting topic to me so I apologize in advance for a long response.

Having graduated almost 25 years ago I find it interesting to see what has changed and what has not. What we have developed since the old days is somewhat of an arms race in Texas. Don't get me wrong, UT and A&M were the top two back in the day as well, the difference is they have now had a quarter of a century to soak up massive funding from the state and in turn have become more national destinations due to the lower tuition and job prospects in Texas.

I agree wholeheartedly that you have to let your kids choose. If you force them to go somewhere it will most likely come back to bite you in the butt. What you can do is inform them and educate them on their options.

What gets me is most of these kids are so busy with high school and extracurriculars, sports etc that they really don't know what they want to be or major in. I was the same way and I would hazard a guess that the vast majority don't know for sure either. They may think they want to be something having never had the opportunity to see what that profession truly entails. I would like to see a lot less standardized testing and more in terms of helping these youngsters identify careers early on.

I am very concerned that we have become a society who has glorified certain institutions of learning as place where if you get in you have "made" it. The same thing would apply to certain majors. Sure, there are some colleges who have great reputations and alumni support who will give you a step up in terms of landing a good job. But the truth of the matter is getting your degree from said institution is just one small component in the marathon of your career. What you do with that degree and your entirely is up to you!

Right now, the "best" major appears to be engineering, petroleum/nuclear etc... many kids want to do that because the salary and job prospects seem to be the best. I can remember living through the oil bust and seeing many engineers bitching about how their field had fallen. Everybody from my day wanted to be a doctor and a lawyer. Now that seems to have lost some of its former luster. I think you try to do two things, find something that you like to do and are fairly good at in no particular order.

I worry sometimes about parents who have the path all laid out for their kids and put expectations so very high. What happens if things fall off course? Do you have a backup plan? There is a great New York Times article out right now talking about college admissions and how not getting into your dream school can be so devastating but actually could be a blessing because dealing with rejection can be one of the greatest learning lessons in life. Accepting that you didn't go to "THE" college could very well position you to be more successful at the college you attend. Are you reliving your own life through your kids or allowing them to find their own way?

Back to North Texas -- I can honestly say that UNT is WAY better and much more highly regarded than when I attended there. I think the facilities speak for themselves and the academics continue to improve. Most importantly, we are reaching out to our alumni like never before. When I went to school there we didn't have a quarterly North Texas to read. We didn't have a decent football facility, enough dorms, workout facility... I thought the student union was pretty decent but look at what they are building now!! So things are headed in a GREAT direction and if you think otherwise you must be an ostrich.

Do not discount the cost of tuition and student loans and the effect it has on the college selection process. Arkansas, OU, LSU and some others have benefited greatly from the top 10% rule here in Texas. They have been able to get many of the kids right outside the top 10% to attend their schools with scholarships, in state tuition etc. My read is the state governments are ratcheting back their funding for state institutions across the board and I expect this to continue. Kids used to go wherever they could get into with no thought of the costs or the student loans they would inherit. That worm is turning. It has gotten to the point where our housing growth continues to suffer even in a rebounding economy because young people have too much college loan debt. So, UNT is well positioned for the future due to its location and lower cost. It will be harder and harder for out of state schools to continue to lure Texans out of the state.

Last point and I'll hang up and listen. Much of the frustration vented here on this site is about the lack of success we have had in our sports programs over the last 10 years and in our history. We are not in the SEC or Big 12 we are in C-USA and we have EVERY right to expect to compete for championships in the major sports every year! Just a modicum of success would make such a difference in the perception we have as opposed to UTD and UTA. Look at the HOD Bowl as an example. Our alumni and fans are hungry for success. Prospective students and graduates are looking for reasons to attend UNT over the others. I do believe that day will come, but it will take a commitment from the administration to get us there.