Did Ron Washington and Nolan Ryan destroy the Rangers pitching staff

meanrob · March 25, 2015

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yKe-Gn6IvcI

The world was a better place....

Quoner · March 26, 2015

Tangentially related, but came across this article today on how the Brewers have done a great job keeping pitchers healthy for the last decade: http://www.brewcrewball.com/2015/3/16/8224841/brewers-tommy-john-surgery-zack-wheeler

That's 2 TJ surgeries in a full decade and not a single one since 2009 (hey, they changed pitching coaches right before then and we've had several since.) I'm not going to try to fully imply a full relation between the Nolan way and arm injuries, but, and this is a solid counterpoint...I'm just sayin'...

Green Mean · March 27, 2015

You're underestimating Ryan. He's turned the dysfunctional baseball stat geek FO in Houston into a smart baseball-savvy front office and convinced Crane to open his pocket books. He has listened to the fans and helped his son fix the issues people have had with the ballpark, uniforms and basic operations. The problems with the Astros before Ryan and his son came along were a lot more than bad baseball, going back to Drayton in the mid 2000s, the franchise was the worst ran organization in baseball. Ryan knows baseball and knows what works, as well as what doesn't. Since he's come to Houston, outside of the Aiken debacle, all that dysfunction has disappeared and the FO is listening to the fans. Exactly what the Rangers don't do after Ryan left. Maybe it's coincidence, but what Ryan brings is simple, he knows what the players and the fans WANT, and through whatever means, gets these things done. Even if our performance isn't playoff worthy this year, the Astros are on an upswing and will contend for a WC spot year even if they strike out 2,000 times. Jon Daniels, instead, is dismantling the team piece by piece and pissing off the fans. I've never seen a fanbase turn on a team as quickly as the Rangers fans did, I went to a game five minutes before the game began, got a gnome for the first 5,000 fans, and sat five rows from the fence. It was like an Astros game.
That's a problem, and it shows that the current FO is tone deaf. People left the Astros for the same exact reason, being tone deaf, and years later they are STILL trying to repair the damage. Rangers need to stop the bleeding, whether that's winning, or listening to the fans, and do it soon.
(BTW, I like the Rangers, I'm just seeing similarities to the Astros downhill slide and wouldn't wish 10 years of the worst baseball ever on anybody.)

The Astros were on their way and doing just fine before the Ryan's got there. Jim Crane took that opportunity in a time where they needed to save some face and sell a few extra tickets to have Nolan a part of this organization. Again this is nothing but PR & marketing move whether people want to believe it or not which is exactly what Hicks did in 2008-09. Luhnow comes from a great background from the STL organization if I recall. So tell me this...Ryan persuaded Jim Crane to spend money...How and why in the world would Crane spend money on a team that was absolute trash? They had an awful team with no talent in the system whatsoever. What is he going to spend and waste money on? Crane did exactly the right thing and said look we're going to gut the whole thing and start from scratch. If it takes losing 100 games for a few years then so be it and it's looking that it's going to pay off in the next couple of years. I don't deny that maybe Houston ownership and management had their share of issues but I can pretty much say that I highly doubt they were the worst ran in baseball...sure they weren't perfect but they were pretty good and relevant.

It shouldn't matter what the players and fans want because at the end of the day all anybody ever wants is things trending up and winning baseball and that is always the bottom line now what Nolan Ryan thinks what people want. Just how is JD dismantling to a team? Not every baseball move is going to work out...even to the best of them. It's great that good managements don't do what the fans want personnel wise because it would turn out to be a disaster in so many cases. So you're saying you wanted to give Josh 5/125? Regardless of how the outcome turned out to be last season how do you not trade Kinsler for Fielder? Kinsler started well there but started going down as the season progressed. How about Michael Young? His time with the organization was over...he couldn't field and his bat speed completely fell off and its normal when you turn 36 AND there's way too much organization depth at those positions.

Green Mean · March 27, 2015

What I don't like about all this is that the Rangers fans have split into these factions that have had to pick a side and bicker just for the sake of bickering. Does JD deserve credit for building the farm system and hitting on a few big trades? Absolutely. Does Nolan get credit for bringing in possibly the best pitching coaching tandem in MLB? Absolutely. Wash's ability to manage the clubhouse was also instrumental. Heck, throw some bones to bad guy Hicks for hiring all these guys and starting down this path and for Showalter coming along when he did, as well. All of these guys, and many more, worked together to get the Rangers where they were in 2010/11.

Then the infighting started over who should get all, or most of, the credit and everything has just completely fallen apart. Damned greedy bastards.

I like Maddux a ton and glad he's still here but you're generally more successful if you have guys that can pitch somewhat. You have the crummy Rangers staffs from years past then the results will still be bad.

I was never a fan of Wash managing this team because he didn't know his head from his rear when it came to actual managing and strategy. Like you said tho I give him a ton of credit for convincing these players to play their rears out for him and have fun. If Wash isn't managing I am convinced the Rangers win it all in 2011 and while SF completely killed Texas the year before I do think Wash committed a ton of managing blunders that really set the tone in SF's favor. Hick's financial problems and stingy ways actually benefited the Rangers greatly because it was then that he decided to put a huge emphasis on scouting and development so he didn't have to spend any money on FA's which is what he wanted.

Ryan Munthe · March 27, 2015

The Astros were on their way and doing just fine before the Ryan's got there. Jim Crane took that opportunity in a time where they needed to save some face and sell a few extra tickets to have Nolan a part of this organization. Again this is nothing but PR & marketing move whether people want to believe it or not which is exactly what Hicks did in 2008-09. Luhnow comes from a great background from the STL organization if I recall. So tell me this...Ryan persuaded Jim Crane to spend money...How and why in the world would Crane spend money on a team that was absolute trash? They had an awful team with no talent in the system whatsoever. What is he going to spend and waste money on? Crane did exactly the right thing and said look we're going to gut the whole thing and start from scratch. If it takes losing 100 games for a few years then so be it and it's looking that it's going to pay off in the next couple of years. I don't deny that maybe Houston ownership and management had their share of issues but I can pretty much say that I highly doubt they were the worst ran in baseball...sure they weren't perfect but they were pretty good and relevant.

It shouldn't matter what the players and fans want because at the end of the day all anybody ever wants is things trending up and winning baseball and that is always the bottom line now what Nolan Ryan thinks what people want. Just how is JD dismantling to a team? Not every baseball move is going to work out...even to the best of them. It's great that good managements don't do what the fans want personnel wise because it would turn out to be a disaster in so many cases. So you're saying you wanted to give Josh 5/125? Regardless of how the outcome turned out to be last season how do you not trade Kinsler for Fielder? Kinsler started well there but started going down as the season progressed. How about Michael Young? His time with the organization was over...he couldn't field and his bat speed completely fell off and its normal when you turn 36 AND there's way too much organization depth at those positions.

K.

Stick to analyzing the Rangers, because you clearly don't know anything about the Astros implosion in every facet after Dierker left. But ok.

Coffee and TV · March 27, 2015

I still love you Glenn Davis.

He's a big Houston Dynamo guy now who talks out of his ass when it comes to soccer. Unreal what passes for 'journalism' for that organization.

Green Mean · March 27, 2015

K.
Stick to analyzing the Rangers, because you clearly don't know anything about the Astros implosion in every facet after Dierker left. But ok.

I'm no Astros historian but am aware of what they've gone through. You stated things like Ryan convinced Jim Crane to spend money which I call total BS on because the Astros were a disaster when Crane bought them. Dierker has been long gone for a while now. They were still relevant and a good team after he left. Things took a turn eventually took a turn which happen from time to time. I'm not saying ownership or management didn't have a hand in it but the point I'm trying to make is it looks like when the Astros get turned around completely there will be fans that give all the credit to Nolan and his son which will absolutely inaccurate.

Ryan Munthe · March 28, 2015

I'm no Astros historian but am aware of what they've gone through. You stated things like Ryan convinced Jim Crane to spend money which I call total BS on because the Astros were a disaster when Crane bought them. Dierker has been long gone for a while now. They were still relevant and a good team after he left. Things took a turn eventually took a turn which happen from time to time. I'm not saying ownership or management didn't have a hand in it but the point I'm trying to make is it looks like when the Astros get turned around completely there will be fans that give all the credit to Nolan and his son which will absolutely inaccurate.

The Astros had a GM who had no clue about Houston or the franchise buy them in Drayton, who proceeded to coast off of the McMullen years. Drayton let the eighth wonder of the world fall to shambles, ruined their style with the disaster jerseys of the 90s and 00s, built a goofy ballpark (that I still love) in a bad part of town based off of some random history with a train station that had no connection to what the Astros represented. After Dierker left, he hired two cronies, one of whom fired the best manager the Astros ever had in Phil Garner, and opened up his wallet to players like Bill Hall at obscene salaries. He overcharged tickets, ran off season ticket holders, told off sponsors, let Ed Wade dismantle the team and put the Astros near bankruptcy, meanwhile letting his new gimmick ballpark fall apart. Oh, and don't forget he dropped CSN Houston on Crane's lap, as well as letting Selig extort Crane.Crane was trying to fix the debacle of management that came before him, and Luhnow to rebuild the roster. Unfortunately, as seen by Bud Norris and Wandy Rodriguez, Luhnow was impersonal and clueless and working with people. To make the team profitable again, Crane sold the ballpark to anyone (left field ads) and the Ryans quickly came in and found a happy medium. They renovated the park, let people bring coolers in, got the Astros in the right colors, and reached out to people that had left because of inept management before.

I think the Ryans bring that to the table with the Astros, as someone who grew up with season tickets to the team and my father was a major sponsor for years.

Green P1 · March 28, 2015

The Astros had a GM who had no clue about Houston or the franchise buy them in Drayton, who proceeded to coast off of the McMullen years. Drayton let the eighth wonder of the world fall to shambles, ruined their style with the disaster jerseys of the 90s and 00s, built a goofy ballpark (that I still love) in a bad part of town based off of some random history with a train station that had no connection to what the Astros represented. After Dierker left, he hired two cronies, one of whom fired the best manager the Astros ever had in Phil Garner, and opened up his wallet to players like Bill Hall at obscene salaries. He overcharged tickets, ran off season ticket holders, told off sponsors, let Ed Wade dismantle the team and put the Astros near bankruptcy, meanwhile letting his new gimmick ballpark fall apart. Oh, and don't forget he dropped CSN Houston on Crane's lap, as well as letting Selig extort Crane.Crane was trying to fix the debacle of management that came before him, and Luhnow to rebuild the roster. Unfortunately, as seen by Bud Norris and Wandy Rodriguez, Luhnow was impersonal and clueless and working with people. To make the team profitable again, Crane sold the ballpark to anyone (left field ads) and the Ryans quickly came in and found a happy medium. They renovated the park, let people bring coolers in, got the Astros in the right colors, and reached out to people that had left because of inept management before.
I think the Ryans bring that to the table with the Astros, as someone who grew up with season tickets to the team and my father was a major sponsor for years.

Braggert

Ryan Munthe · March 29, 2015

Braggert

Not his company, the company he works for, yes

Quoner · March 31, 2015

Not his company, the company he works for, yes

Suck it, Matt Brand. The Ryans do your job now.

golfingomez · March 31, 2015

Gerry Hunsicker walking away was a HUGE part of the Astros downfall, but they also benefitted greatly in the mid-90s by being one of, if not the first club to open up a training facility in South America, opening up a pipeline that few others had... eventually this was shuttered and the talent in the Houston Farm system quickly collapsed as well...

Yes, the Astros made it to the series in '05, but they also began a trend of relying on free agents and were in the awkward situation of letting Big and Bags retire as Astros, as they should have.

the fact that anyone is lauding the Astros great moves right now is pretty ridiculous... this team needs to at least show me a winning season before I believe in this plan.

there may have been some moves made, but my family has not been able to watch or listen to an Astros game for over two years now... despite the fact that my dad had been able to since the club's inception before then... i don't see how cutting out your fan-base is part of rebuilding a team...

don't even get me started on Selig and the freaking train-wreck of a commissioner he was...

rant over

Ryan Munthe · April 1, 2015

Gerry Hunsicker walking away was a HUGE part of the Astros downfall, but they also benefitted greatly in the mid-90s by being one of, if not the first club to open up a training facility in South America, opening up a pipeline that few others had... eventually this was shuttered and the talent in the Houston Farm system quickly collapsed as well...

Yes, the Astros made it to the series in '05, but they also began a trend of relying on free agents and were in the awkward situation of letting Big and Bags retire as Astros, as they should have.

the fact that anyone is lauding the Astros great moves right now is pretty ridiculous... this team needs to at least show me a winning season before I believe in this plan.

there may have been some moves made, but my family has not been able to watch or listen to an Astros game for over two years now... despite the fact that my dad had been able to since the club's inception before then... i don't see how cutting out your fan-base is part of rebuilding a team...

don't even get me started on Selig and the freaking train-wreck of a commissioner he was...

rant over

Exactly.