Did Ron Washington and Nolan Ryan destroy the Rangers pitching staff

UNT90 · March 17, 2015

Very unconventionally high pitch counts for Rangers starters during their time here.

Gives new meaning to the curse of Nolan Ryan?

Discuss.

Dr. Seuss · March 17, 2015

When have the Rangers ever had a consistent pitching staff? Who's the last big name pitcher to come to Arlington, as a free agent?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Yu would be the last one and thats not really a free agent signing. To my knowledge the club has a to offer a blind auction. Then the player can negotiate with the club, but if they do not come to an agreement, then player goes back to the original club??

Green Mean · March 18, 2015

There's no such thing as the Curse of Nolan Ryan. Ryan got and gets waayy too much credit for what went on in Arlington during the successful seasons when in reality we all know it was Jon Daniels and his team that put this organization on the right path. Ryan was more of an advisor and figurehead but his ego just couldn't handle it. People easily and conveniently forget Ryan flexing his muscles and booting Chuck Greenberg out of the organization when he wanted too.

The higher pitch counts and pitching longer wasn't only Ryan's idea but it was what Maddux wished for as well. Frankly I think the organization wanted to change the culture and perception of pitching in Arlington.

I'd say its really crappy bad luck more than anything what's happened the last season or two.

Quoner · March 18, 2015

There's no such thing as the Curse of Nolan Ryan. Ryan got and gets waayy too much credit for what went on in Arlington during the successful seasons when in reality we all know it was Jon Daniels and his team that put this organization on the right path. Ryan was more of an advisor and figurehead but his ego just couldn't handle it. People easily and conveniently forget Ryan flexing his muscles and booting Chuck Greenberg out of the organization when he wanted too.

The higher pitch counts and pitching longer wasn't only Ryan's idea but it was what Maddux wished for as well. Frankly I think the organization wanted to change the culture and perception of pitching in Arlington.

I'd say its really crappy bad luck more than anything what's happened the last season or two.

Booting Greenberg and Josh Lewin is a lot of his management legacy for me. That said, thankful for his Ranger career and that he was the figurehead during a lot of transition and tough times before the team was sold.

UNTLifer · March 18, 2015

Like him or not, Ryan brought credibility to the Rangers.

I think innings pitched are way overblown in the majors. Look at the innings logged by some of the most successful pitchers in history. Six innings and turning the game over to the bullpen is considered a successful start in this day and age. Raise the mound back up, call the strike zone as described in the rule book and see what happens.

ColoradoEagle · March 19, 2015

Booting Greenberg and Josh Lewin is a lot of his management legacy for me.

It seemed like there was a huge camp against Lewin. I personally liked his playcalling and knowledge. Obviously it came down to him or Tom Grieve, and they made a mistake on that one. Neither Barnett nor Busby have been able to carry the broadcasts, which highlights exactly how boring Grieve is for anything but occasional commentary. Also he's supposedly a huge asshole.

Green Mean · March 19, 2015

Like him or not, Ryan brought credibility to the Rangers.

I think innings pitched are way overblown in the majors. Look at the innings logged by some of the most successful pitchers in history. Six innings and turning the game over to the bullpen is considered a successful start in this day and age. Raise the mound back up, call the strike zone as described in the rule book and see what happens.

You could possibly say Ryan brought the organization some relevancy in 89 but beyond that Ryan won't bring in credibility if this team is losing. Quite frankly when I think of Ryan I think of him as an Astro and and Angel and he's not even close to being one of the greatest Rangers of all time IMO. If Ryan wasn't here this team still would have have had a heck of a run from 2010-2013 of winning 90 games and 2 WS appearances. The slow but sure rise began in the 2008 season and when the organizational seeds and structure was already in place.

The only reason Hicks hired Ryan was to sell a few more tickets and be a figurehead. It just so happened that Ryan saw an opportunity to form an ownership group which he had a very small stake in a couple years later. Hicks wanted to go the small to middle market avenue way before all this which is why there was that huge emphasis of scouting and development which was led by JD. I kept on hearing Hicks talking about following a Minnesota Twins type of model which was ridiculous given we're in a Top 4 or 5 market.

Green Mean · March 19, 2015

Booting Greenberg and Josh Lewin is a lot of his management legacy for me. That said, thankful for his Ranger career and that he was the figurehead during a lot of transition and tough times before the team was sold.

Ugh I can live with Greenberg getting the boot even though he was screwed by Nolan but not signing Lewin longer term was a disaster. I didn't mind Barnett all that much but Busby is awful although his saving grace is providing quite a bit of funny audio to The Ticket.

No doubt I'm not a Ryan hater but there's a huge faction out there that think Nolan is the sole reason this team was good and relevant and that is quite the opposite. But then again when it comes to the good ol boy Texan and one of us versus that Yankee Jon Daniels I think we know how much of this public is going to view such situations and that's where Ryan can do no harm in a lot of people's eyes.

Ryan Munthe · March 21, 2015

Ugh I can live with Greenberg getting the boot even though he was screwed by Nolan but not signing Lewin longer term was a disaster. I didn't mind Barnett all that much but Busby is awful although his saving grace is providing quite a bit of funny audio to The Ticket.

No doubt I'm not a Ryan hater but there's a huge faction out there that think Nolan is the sole reason this team was good and relevant and that is quite the opposite. But then again when it comes to the good ol boy Texan and one of us versus that Yankee Jon Daniels I think we know how much of this public is going to view such situations and that's where Ryan can do no harm in a lot of people's eyes.

You're underestimating Ryan. He's turned the dysfunctional baseball stat geek FO in Houston into a smart baseball-savvy front office and convinced Crane to open his pocket books. He has listened to the fans and helped his son fix the issues people have had with the ballpark, uniforms and basic operations. The problems with the Astros before Ryan and his son came along were a lot more than bad baseball, going back to Drayton in the mid 2000s, the franchise was the worst ran organization in baseball. Ryan knows baseball and knows what works, as well as what doesn't. Since he's come to Houston, outside of the Aiken debacle, all that dysfunction has disappeared and the FO is listening to the fans. Exactly what the Rangers don't do after Ryan left. Maybe it's coincidence, but what Ryan brings is simple, he knows what the players and the fans WANT, and through whatever means, gets these things done. Even if our performance isn't playoff worthy this year, the Astros are on an upswing and will contend for a WC spot year even if they strike out 2,000 times. Jon Daniels, instead, is dismantling the team piece by piece and pissing off the fans. I've never seen a fanbase turn on a team as quickly as the Rangers fans did, I went to a game five minutes before the game began, got a gnome for the first 5,000 fans, and sat five rows from the fence. It was like an Astros game.

That's a problem, and it shows that the current FO is tone deaf. People left the Astros for the same exact reason, being tone deaf, and years later they are STILL trying to repair the damage. Rangers need to stop the bleeding, whether that's winning, or listening to the fans, and do it soon.

(BTW, I like the Rangers, I'm just seeing similarities to the Astros downhill slide and wouldn't wish 10 years of the worst baseball ever on anybody.)

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ryan Munthe

Quoner · March 21, 2015

Everything good the Astros are doing was in place before Ryan got there. It's almost like he's a genius at picking his spots and taking credit for the hard work of others (because the Astros have a damn good front office.) Basically, he's a rubber stamp for old school fans/white trash at this point.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Quoner

Ryan Munthe · March 21, 2015

Everything good the Astros are doing was in place before Ryan got theRe. It's almost like he's a genius at picking his spots and taking credit for the hard work of others (because the Astros have a damn good front office.) Basically, he's a rubber stamp for old school fans/white trash at this point.

Not true at all.

Astros were not spending cash, were selling out the ballpark to the highest bidder (ads), were dragging their feet on the whole CSN debacle, were raising prices astronomically for the worst product in baseball, did some much needed updates to an aging ballpark, signing players only if they had enough numbers to satisfy Luhnow's sabermetrics approach, fired Bo Porter...the list goes on.

When Nolan came, Crane started spending money, fixed the monstrosity of billboards in left field, fixed CSN, fixed ticket prices, decked out the ballpark in updates, signed some players who fit the role and people who can be leaders on the team. In addition, Bo Porter, clearly over his head, got fired because he fit Luhnow's scheme but Luhnow's biggest flaw is that he knows little about baseball other than numbers.

And I think Luhnow is a genius, but he doesn't understand the things that surround the numbers of baseball. Nolan and his son Reid do. These changes are just a few that occurred as soon as the Ryans came to town.

I'm not as up on the Rangers as I am the Astros, but what I do know is that once Nolan arrived, the fans came and the team improved. The same little things that the Astros have done to fix their dysfunctional operations now were done to the Rangers upon Nolan's arrival. And now that he's gone, it's starting to revert.

Am I saying that Nolan is a magic-worker? No. But what I am saying is that when Nolan sits down with the owner of the Astros and the Rangers with suggestions in meetings, it seems like the owners listen because these things above happen. And maybe it's coincidence, but I tend to think it isn't.

Nolan understands baseball and brings baseball to the business side of it. It's the same reason why the Broncos hired Elway.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ryan Munthe

Quoner · March 21, 2015

Not true at all.

Astros were not spending cash, were selling out the ballpark to the highest bidder (ads), were dragging their feet on the whole CSN debacle, were raising prices astronomically for the worst product in baseball, did some much needed updates to an aging ballpark, signing players only if they had enough numbers to satisfy Luhnow's sabermetrics approach, fired Bo Porter...the list goes on.

When Nolan came, Crane started spending money, fixed the monstrosity of billboards in left field, fixed CSN, fixed ticket prices, decked out the ballpark in updates, signed some players who fit the role and people who can be leaders on the team. In addition, Bo Porter, clearly over his head, got fired because he fit Luhnow's scheme but Luhnow's biggest flaw is that he knows little about baseball other than numbers.

And I think Luhnow is a genius, but he doesn't understand the things that surround the numbers of baseball. Nolan and his son Reid do. These changes are just a few that occurred as soon as the Ryans came to town.

I'm not as up on the Rangers as I am the Astros, but what I do know is that once Nolan arrived, the fans came and the team improved. The same little things that the Astros have done to fix their dysfunctional operations now were done to the Rangers upon Nolan's arrival. And now that he's gone, it's starting to revert.

Am I saying that Nolan is a magic-worker? No. But what I am saying is that when Nolan sits down with the owner of the Astros and the Rangers with suggestions in meetings, it seems like the owners listen because these things above happen. And maybe it's coincidence, but I tend to think it isn't.

Nolan understands baseball and brings baseball to the business side of it. It's the same reason why the Broncos hired Elway.

so it's been a year...he's drafted none of the talent, but he served as a scapegoat for obvious changes that had to happen anyway, and gave credibility to a terribly reactive, bandwagon fanbase that couldn't support the team in lean years? Sounds familiar - right down to if you replaced Aiken with Purke.

I remember jumping through the same hoops to justify him, but he's a figurehead and he wants everyone to know it.

EDIT: I promise I am not just trying to be a dick, but this is from actual conversations with people in BOTH front offices about him. No hate if you choose to believe the narrative, though.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Quoner

meanrob · March 23, 2015

You're underestimating Ryan. He's turned the dysfunctional baseball stat geek FO in Houston into a smart baseball-savvy front office and convinced Crane to open his pocket books. He has listened to the fans and helped his son fix the issues people have had with the ballpark, uniforms and basic operations. The problems with the Astros before Ryan and his son came along were a lot more than bad baseball, going back to Drayton in the mid 2000s, the franchise was the worst ran organization in baseball. Ryan knows baseball and knows what works, as well as what doesn't. Since he's come to Houston, outside of the Aiken debacle, all that dysfunction has disappeared and the FO is listening to the fans. Exactly what the Rangers don't do after Ryan left. Maybe it's coincidence, but what Ryan brings is simple, he knows what the players and the fans WANT, and through whatever means, gets these things done. Even if our performance isn't playoff worthy this year, the Astros are on an upswing and will contend for a WC spot year even if they strike out 2,000 times. Jon Daniels, instead, is dismantling the team piece by piece and pissing off the fans. I've never seen a fanbase turn on a team as quickly as the Rangers fans did, I went to a game five minutes before the game began, got a gnome for the first 5,000 fans, and sat five rows from the fence. It was like an Astros game.
That's a problem, and it shows that the current FO is tone deaf. People left the Astros for the same exact reason, being tone deaf, and years later they are STILL trying to repair the damage. Rangers need to stop the bleeding, whether that's winning, or listening to the fans, and do it soon.
(BTW, I like the Rangers, I'm just seeing similarities to the Astros downhill slide and wouldn't wish 10 years of the worst baseball ever on anybody.)

The Astros made their only World Series appearance in those mid 2000s.

TIgreen01 · March 23, 2015

Who brought in Maddox? I always thought that was Ryan....but maybe I'm wrong?

The Rangers could always hit and score, but they had no viable (or recognizable) pitching strategy (and thus no real defensive strategy) until Maddox arrived.

TheWestie · March 23, 2015

The Astros made their only World Series appearance in those mid 2000s.

Which was around the time that Phil Garner brought Nolan back into the fold with the team as a pitching advisor. Look at the pitch counts from these guys during that time.

060421_pitch_hmed_1p.grid-6x2.jpg

These guys stuck around until the bottom of the 8th or the top of the 9th when they'd bring in Lidge, who at the time was the most dominant closer in the majors.

And don't forget about Game 4 of the 05 NLDS when Clements came in as a reliever for three innings AND pinch hit after the Astros and Braves both used literally their entire rosters over 18 innings.

Quoner · March 23, 2015

Oh the hurdles to justify this are fun, but I love that we are looking at the endurance of two proven cheaters and a guy who got used up way too quickly as an effective pitcher.

Let's look at that starting lineup, starting with Oswalt, one of the best starters in the game at this time. He threw 240+ innings that year and had two others 233+ inning seasons before 2005. He also broke down quickly by age 32 - probably because he didn't have access to the magical pitching creams and tools that helped Pettite and Clemens stay so sharp for so long (nah, it was probably just touching Nolan's shoulder or something.) Brandon Backe threw a whopping 149.1 innings that year and had almost a 5 ERA. He also threw less than 250 innings the next four years before he was out of baseball forever. Wandy Rodriguez also stayed effective after that year, but he actually managed his innings and only has topped 200 innings twice in his career. That's also kind of weird that Brad Lidge killed Mariano Rivera - they should probably look into that.

The Astros were a good team that caught about 4 years of the most laughably incompetent division in baseball. The Rangers actually had the same luck in 2010/2011, but once the competition got back to competent (both in the Central and now in the West), things changed. The Astros are getting the same press the Rangers were getting from 2008-2010, but the only team in the division that looks ready to trend down in the next few years is the Rangers (and that's before their next wave is ready in a year or two), so better grab that opening quick.

The Rangers had no pitching plan pre-2008 because they had no talent. All the pep talks in the world and demands to "toughen it up" did anything for John Wasdin, Juan Dominguez and Chan Ho Park. Getting Maddux was a huge move and Nolan definitely deserves credit for that - but Maddux was the one who put in the work at the major league level (not to mention the work of Danny Clark, who took over minor league pitching coordinator in 2008 to help a lot of these guys get ready.)

The Rangers and Astros will probably win again, and it will be on the backs of the talent and the actual hard workers building the organizations - not the addition or lack of Nolan Ryan to the mix. To do otherwise is like crediting the appearance of Mean Joe at games for the HOD Bowl win two seasons ago.

Green P1 · March 24, 2015

Rember when baseball didn't test for those things that kept you super strong and kept your recovery times through the roof. Thank God Nolan had all that ADVIL to keep him going throughout his career!

Seriously love that guy for all the childhood memories.... But his "theories" on not babying pitch counts are as laughable as Palmeiro's finger wag at congress.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Green P1

Texas Stranger · March 24, 2015

2009-2011 also had the Showalter Effect for the Rangers (World Series appearances follow after he leaves, good future news for Baltimore)

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 24, 2015

Deteriorating pitchers starts in the youth ranks, when high school coaches have their stud pitches go way over any reasonable pitch count. That being said, its probably not smart to push pitchers too hard in the bigs either. As far as the contribution factor goes, Nolan was definitely just a figurehead during those 2010-11 runs. The building of that team began before Nolan even got here, and it started in the farm system JD built. I love Nolan and my middle name is actually Nolan "Ryan" after him but Quoner's assessment is funny. The group he mentions hates JD because he is everything they hate about modern baseball GMs: not a baseball guy, young, ivy league, Sabremetrics, etc.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

TheWestie · March 24, 2015

Lets all just agree on one thing:

Bud Selig sucks and the Astros should have never had to move to the AL. The fact that there can no longer be an Astros Vs Rangers World Series sucks.

oldguystudent · March 24, 2015

Bud Selig sucks

For better or for worse, I stopped following, or at least caring about MLB in 1994. In the 21 years since, I've tried to think of one thing Bud Selig has done that's positive for the game. All I can think of are cartoonishly big players on superroids in the 90s to bring back the jaded 1994 crowds, the attempted contraction of the Twins and the Expos, the league switches of the Brewers and the Astros, the tie all-star game, the reactionary "This time it counts" home field nonsense, interleague play taking up more and more of the season (Sorry if you like this, but I really liked that there were two league independent of each other. Hell, I remember when they had different presidents), expanding the playoffs until it looks like hockey where two-thirds of the teams get participation trophies and get to say they made the playoffs (remember when making the playoffs actually meant something?)

Meanwhile, the first game I ever attended in 1981, according to retrobox, lasted two hours and one minute. As we approach the four hour mark for the average MLB game, and threaten a pitch clock, the game becomes more and more like the stunted never actually happening or finishing nonsense of the final two minutes of every basketball game ever played.

TIgreen01 · March 24, 2015

Oh the hurdles to justify this are fun, but I love that we are looking at the endurance of two proven cheaters and a guy who got used up way too quickly as an effective pitcher.

Let's look at that starting lineup, starting with Oswalt, one of the best starters in the game at this time. He threw 240+ innings that year and had two others 233+ inning seasons before 2005. He also broke down quickly by age 32 - probably because he didn't have access to the magical pitching creams and tools that helped Pettite and Clemens stay so sharp for so long (nah, it was probably just touching Nolan's shoulder or something.) Brandon Backe threw a whopping 149.1 innings that year and had almost a 5 ERA. He also threw less than 250 innings the next four years before he was out of baseball forever. Wandy Rodriguez also stayed effective after that year, but he actually managed his innings and only has topped 200 innings twice in his career. That's also kind of weird that Brad Lidge killed Mariano Rivera - they should probably look into that.

The Astros were a good team that caught about 4 years of the most laughably incompetent division in baseball. The Rangers actually had the same luck in 2010/2011, but once the competition got back to competent (both in the Central and now in the West), things changed. The Astros are getting the same press the Rangers were getting from 2008-2010, but the only team in the division that looks ready to trend down in the next few years is the Rangers (and that's before their next wave is ready in a year or two), so better grab that opening quick.

The Rangers had no pitching plan pre-2008 because they had no talent. All the pep talks in the world and demands to "toughen it up" did anything for John Wasdin, Juan Dominguez and Chan Ho Park. Getting Maddux was a huge move and Nolan definitely deserves credit for that - but Maddux was the one who put in the work at the major league level (not to mention the work of Danny Clark, who took over minor league pitching coordinator in 2008 to help a lot of these guys get ready.)

The Rangers and Astros will probably win again, and it will be on the backs of the talent and the actual hard workers building the organizations - not the addition or lack of Nolan Ryan to the mix. To do otherwise is like crediting the appearance of Mean Joe at games for the HOD Bowl win two seasons ago.

What I don't like about all this is that the Rangers fans have split into these factions that have had to pick a side and bicker just for the sake of bickering. Does JD deserve credit for building the farm system and hitting on a few big trades? Absolutely. Does Nolan get credit for bringing in possibly the best pitching coaching tandem in MLB? Absolutely. Wash's ability to manage the clubhouse was also instrumental. Heck, throw some bones to bad guy Hicks for hiring all these guys and starting down this path and for Showalter coming along when he did, as well. All of these guys, and many more, worked together to get the Rangers where they were in 2010/11.

Then the infighting started over who should get all, or most of, the credit and everything has just completely fallen apart. Damned greedy bastards.

Edited March 24, 2015 by TIgreen01

UNT90 · March 24, 2015

Cowboys 2.0?

Ryan Munthe · March 24, 2015

Lets all just agree on one thing:

Bud Selig sucks and the Astros should have never had to move to the AL. The fact that there can no longer be an Astros Vs Rangers World Series sucks.

He ruined the Astros. It's an absolute freaking debacle. Brewers should've moved back. We're an NL team.