Bank robbery in downtown Fort Worth

[oldguystudent]

Link

This story really got my attention because it happened in the building that I used to work in. Then I got to wondering. Here's a question for the CHL holders.

I would think that downtown Fort Worth has lots and lots of CHL holders meandering about its streets. The lobby where this Frost bank is located is generally quite heavily populated by foot traffic of people working in the forty floors above.

Isn't this a textbook scenario of when a CHL holder might choose to brandish his weapon? I was really quite surprised that this armed robber simply walked out of the building, unmolested, and disappeared into the shadows.

I could very well have a gross misunderstanding of CHL laws, and maybe this is very much not a time to brandish a weapon. I really don't know.

[UNT90]

Disgression is often times the better part of valor.

Really not enough info in the article to make any other assumptions.

Edited February 17, 2015 by UNT90

[oldguystudent]

Let me get more specific on my question. This wouldn't be a case of protecting personal life or property. Would it be appropriate to intervene if one considered it reasonably safe to do so?

[UNT90]

Let me get more specific on my question. This wouldn't be a case of protecting personal life or property. Would it be appropriate to intervene if one considered it reasonably safe to do so?

Oh sure. The problem is the "reasonably safe" part.

If a CHL person had been in the bank and had used proper judgement while shooting the bank robber to stop the threat, he or she would be in no trouble. The case would obviously be referred to a grand jury for review, but a no bill would be a pretty sure thing as long as the only one hurt was the robber and the CHL holder fired his/her weapon in protection of others.

They might even get hero treatment that this society loves to throw at people.

Edited February 15, 2015 by UNT90

[MeanGreenTexan]

Oh sure. The problem is the "reasonably safe" part.

If a CHL person had been in the bank and had used proper judgement while shooting the bank robber to stop the threat, he or she would be in no trouble. The case would obviously be referred to a grand jury for review, but a no bill would be a pretty sure thing as long as the only one hurt was the robber and the CHL holder fired his/her weapon in protection of others.

They might even get hero treatment that this society loves to throw at people.

You mean like the "Momma Bear" that assaulted a dude after he wrecked her van & got a cool nickname & a new Kia out of the deal?

[UNT90]

You mean like the "Momma Bear" that assaulted a dude after he wrecked her van & got a cool nickname & a new Kia out of the deal?

If you are referring to my last sentence, yep.

[FirefightnRick]

We work out walking the stairwells at the triple 7 Main Building from time to time. Usually there are a lot of people coming and going, but most travel to the second floor from the garage. So the bank lobby isn't as crowded as one would think? This guy just got real damn lucky with his timing.

Rick

[UNT90]

Let me get more specific on my question. This wouldn't be a case of protecting personal life or property. Would it be appropriate to intervene if one considered it reasonably safe to do so?

Sorry, re-read your question and I think you are asking if it is ok to use deadly force in defense of an innocent 3rd party.

The answer is absolutely, unequivocally yes. ,

Edited February 17, 2015 by UNT90

[oldguystudent]

Sorry, re-read your question and I think you are asking if it is ok to use deadly force in defense of an innocent 3rd party.

The answer is absolutely, unequivocally yes. ,

That is my question. My understanding of Texas law is protection of person and property, and I was unclear as to whether that extended to third parties.

[UNT90]

The law is amazingly commonsensical

[MeanGreenTexan]

The law is amazingly commonsensical

Until an 'affluent', drunk, teen kills several people... then, not so much.

[UNT90]

Until an 'affluent', drunk, teen kills several people... then, not so much.

The law is commonsensical, some judges are not.

Don't confuse the two.

That judge is retired. Is the judge that took her place any better? Time will tell...

[UNT90]

That is my question. My understanding of Texas law is protection of person and property, and I was unclear as to whether that extended to third parties.

Thought of this conversation when I came across this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sL5iqph_KRQ

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- Banks don't want gun-fights in their bank ... Let them go and catch them later. -- so my students that have been working in local banks tell me ---

We have had a few and none succeed long-term .. they were caught---- (not the recent one ... yet)

[Green P1]

Anyone know if this particular bank had a 3006 sign posted?

That question aside, as a person with his CHL but who has never once carried and probably never will, it's my opinion that a liscense in your pocket by no means makes you a law enforcement office. A sidearm should never be drawn unless you judge yours or those near yourself's life to be in immediate danger.

[UNT90]

Anyone know if this particular bank had a 3006 sign posted?

That question aside, as a person with his CHL but who has never once carried and probably never will, it's my opinion that a liscense in your pocket by no means makes you a law enforcement office. A sidearm should never be drawn unless you judge yours or those near yourself's life to be in immediate danger.

Right, like a gun pointed to the head being escorted to a walk in cooler or, as the case was at the bank, a gun being pointed and people being herded into a back room.

Are they taking them back there to kill them or taking them back there to further the robbery? It's a judgement call, and only one that can be made at the scene by the person observing the offender and must be made in a split second.

What are the offenders behaviors? Is he calm, cool and rational? Is he threatening to kill everybody? Do you think he is serious about that threat? Can you draw your weapon and get to a firing position before he reacts? Is there anyone in the target background that could be hit by a stray bullet?

Just a part of the decision that must be made in a split second.

Absolutes like the foolish one presented by 66 should never be applied in these situations, because every situation is different and you can't judge it sitting behind a computer screen.

[Green P1]

Right, like a gun pointed to the head being escorted to a walk in cooler or, as the case was at the bank, a gun being pointed and people being herded into a back room.

Are they taking them back there to kill them or taking them back there to further the robbery? It's a judgement call, and only one that can be made at the scene by the person observing the offender and must be made in a split second.

What are the offenders behaviors? Is he calm, cool and rational? Is he threatening to kill everybody? Do you think he is serious about that threat? Can you draw your weapon and get to a firing position before he reacts? Is there anyone in the target background that could be hit by a stray bullet?

Just a part of the decision that must be made in a split second.

Absolutes like the foolish one presented by 66 should never be applied in these situations, because every situation is different and you can't judge it sitting behind a computer screen.

So.... you disagree with my assertion that a CHL doesn't make you a law enforcement officer.

Okie Dokie

[UNT90]

So.... you disagree with my assertion that a CHL doesn't make you a law enforcement officer.

Okie Dokie

How would you feel if you were carrying, had the chance to stop a robbery, walked away only to see the armed robber shoot and kill the clerk.

It's a moral duty, not just one of a law enforcement officer. Pray that you never find yourself in such a situation.

[Army of Dad]

So.... you disagree with my assertion that a CHL doesn't make you a law enforcement officer.

Okie Dokie

I thought he agreed with both your assertions about CHL=not cop and don't draw sidearm except for immediate threats.

There are certain circumstances that the law allows that level of force to be used, but reserving that level for a higher threat is likely to keep you out of trouble with the law.

[Army of Dad]

--

Fireman...., Police..... and education people : Still a tea-party Dan Patrick fan ...?????? Most of your funding and salaries comes from property taxes...

The guy is nuts.... apparently he thinks HE is gov. and not getting along with Abbot either.

___________________________

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/state-politics/20150208-property-tax-cap-rumblings-in-austin-have-texas-cities-counties-worried.ece

from Indiana even: http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/367e4a6f9b2e4bccb15c88f14114ac56/TX--Texas-Mayors-Taxes

I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with this thread?

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Right, like a gun pointed to the head being escorted to a walk in cooler or, as the case was at the bank, a gun being pointed and people being herded into a back room.

Are they taking them back there to kill them or taking them back there to further the robbery? It's a judgement call, and only one that can be made at the scene by the person observing the offender and must be made in a split second.

What are the offenders behaviors? Is he calm, cool and rational? Is he threatening to kill everybody? Do you think he is serious about that threat? Can you draw your weapon and get to a firing position before he reacts? Is there anyone in the target background that could be hit by a stray bullet?

Just a part of the decision that must be made in a split second.

Absolutes like the foolish one presented by 66 should never be applied in these situations, because every situation is different and you can't judge it sitting behind a computer screen.

.

Not my "opinion" .... policy of most banks...

I am sure you think you are smarter than they are.

Edited February 18, 2015 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Army of Dad]

.

Not my "opinion" .... policy of most banks...

I am sure you think you are smarter than they are.

I know I trust myself more than them to look out for my safety.

[Censored by Laurie]

How would you feel if you were carrying, had the chance to stop a robbery, walked away only to see the armed robber shoot and kill the clerk.

It's a moral duty, not just one of a law enforcement officer. Pray that you never find yourself in such a situation.

OK...but how would you feel if you, a CHL holder, had the chance to stop a robbery and due to your irrational self-confidence attempted to...only to quickly discover when you shot 4 times and missed embarrassingly on each attempt that your CHL training was woefully inadequate, especially in high-stress situations...and now the robber, disgruntled former special-ops military, has shot you in the leg and disarmed you...an act that triggers a PTSD-break causing him to then, mumbling something about Obama and the liberal Hollywood agenda in American Sniper, kill not just the clerk, but every other person in the bank...save for you.

You, wounded and in more pain, both physical and emotional, than you've ever felt in your entire life, he takes hostage...and to elude authorities he takes you to the Super Pit, let's say on November 27, 2015...and there just happens to be a women's basketball game that evening that you're now forced to sit through...the whole game...it finishes with a score of 25-21. And as the man-hunt continues into the next day, the entire town of Denton essentially on lock-down...it's decided that the final football game of the year should be moved from Apogee down to the UTA football stadium, effectively giving UNT a 4 game home schedule.

all because you tried to be a hero.

pray that you never find yourself in such a situation.

[UNT90]

OK...but how would you feel if you, a CHL holder, had the chance to stop a robbery and due to your irrational self-confidence attempted to...only to quickly discover when you shot 4 times and missed embarrassingly on each attempt that your CHL training was woefully inadequate, especially in high-stress situations...and now the robber, disgruntled former special-ops military, has shot you in the leg and disarmed you...an act that triggers a PTSD-break causing him to then, mumbling something about Obama and the liberal Hollywood agenda in American Sniper, kill not just the clerk, but every other person in the bank...save for you.

You, wounded and in more pain, both physical and emotional, than you've ever felt in your entire life, he takes hostage...and to elude authorities he takes you to the Super Pit, let's say on November 27, 2015...and there just happens to be a women's basketball game that evening that you're now forced to sit through...the whole game...it finishes with a score of 25-21. And as the man-hunt continues into the next day, the entire town of Denton essentially on lock-down...it's decided that the final football game of the year should be moved from Apogee down to the UTA football stadium, effectively giving UNT a 4 game home schedule.

all because you tried to be a hero.

pray that you never find yourself in such a situation.

I know prison food taste terrible, but you gotta eat. Low blood sugar is affecting the thought process. ;-)

Edited February 18, 2015 by UNT90

[UNT90]

.

Not my "opinion" .... policy of most banks...

I am sure you think you are smarter than they are.

For their employees.

That had nothing to do with the situation presented by Oldguy.

And yes, on this subject I am MUCH smarter than you.

Although I'm really not surprised that you maintain your typical surrender position no matter the situation.

Edited February 18, 2015 by UNT90