http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/2015/02/thoughts-on-unts-future-nonc

[Sly Fox]

I don't have a number but ODU is the major school in a Top-50 media market where most casual fans follow UVa & VT and there are a couple of HBCU FCS schools. But bringing back FBS football to the Hampton Roads area has been a huge success at the box office and for the school as a whole. They retrofitted an old stadium to get things going and are already upgrading their place left & right to meet the demand. It will be tough to maintain this buzz for an extended period of time. But their honeymoon has lasted longer than most expected.

Wood Selig is their AD and is a colorful guy who keeps getting mentioned for high profile AD gigs at P5 schools. As a fellow school in Virginia, we play them in most every sport and their facilities are top notch. Both mens & womens hoops have traditionally been their focus until football came back to town in the past few years.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Sly Fox

[MeanGreenHoops]

Um ... neither the SMU or Army series are 20 game series. From the original article, assuming the option mentioned for the SMU series has been picked up it is a 12 game series (11 left to play), while the Army series has 4 games remaining as two were played in '09-10.

[SilverEagle]

Magic bullets. They are hunting for magic bullets. Now the magic bullet seems to be to get P5 teams in Apogee, that will fix everything.

No on really wants to face the fact that the only way to build this program is to win consistently for years. Mainly because we have never done it at any level. But thems the facts.

Fair enough. But how many years are we talking about and what sort of wins? 10 years ago we had a run of four years of being undefeated in conference play and going to bowl games for four years in a row. The results? Except for maybe the 2003 season (which included a home game with Baylor) no significant change in attendance.

Bowl trip at the end of 01, attendance only went up by an average of 491 per game the next year(02).

Bowl trip at the end of 02, attendance went up in 03 by 3434 per game (again helped by the Baylor home game).

Bowl trip at the end of 03, attendance went down 3510 per game in 04.

I don't know the numbers for the 05 season.

Coach Mac made it clear at the signing event that he needed our help. He strongly suggested (to a group of mostly green clad....but not nearly enough...most notably C. Dan Smith) that a partially filled Apogee stadium is not conducive to them winning games there.....especially close ones.

So now we have a "chicken or egg" situation. Which is it? Win so the fans will come and fill up the stadium, or get the stadium full first so the winning will then follow?

[Aldo]

It's funny how people say we should take oir time when we have been taking our freaking time for over 100 years.

If we follow this plan, watch as others become relevant while we stay the same ole UNT.

No one wants us to take our time. I want to win now.

We aren't beating enough OOC mid-majors to matter, period. And when we talk about beating the big dudes, we have to go way back. Like anecdotes.

UNT needs to handle UNT's business first (recruiting, staffing, facilities).

Recruiting has improved overall. Staffing has improved overall. Facilities have definitely improved.

We are on the way up, we just aren't there yet.

Give me a tough fight at home against Wyoming or USF instead of a 30 point loss to Texas or a win over Texas Southern.

Here's a MacMahon tweet that sums this up: Rajon Rondo whipped Rick Carlisle in Connect 4. Rick: "He got all excited afterward. I told him to learn how to make a shot."

[casual fan]

Magic bullets. They are hunting for magic bullets. Now the magic bullet seems to be to get P5 teams in Apogee, that will fix everything.

No on really wants to face the fact that the only way to build this program is to win consistently for years. Mainly because we have never done it at any level. But thems the facts.

Ding, ding, ding!!!!

The silver bullet is winning consistently for years.

Boise didn't become Boise by playing unwinnable out of conference games each year while having only 5 home games.

A nice home win over a weak team is better than a 35 pt road loss to LSU, etc.

A big loss like that early in the season kills all momentum and wounds attendance for the rest of the year.

UNT has been stubbornly trying to roll the same boulder up the same mountain for years. It dosen't work.

[MeanGreenHoops]

Fair enough. But how many years are we talking about and what sort of wins? 10 years ago we had a run of four years of being undefeated in conference play and going to bowl games for four years in a row. The results? Except for maybe the 2003 season (which included a home game with Baylor) no significant change in attendance.

Bowl trip at the end of 01, attendance only went up by an average of 491 per game the next year(02).

Bowl trip at the end of 02, attendance went up in 03 by 3434 per game (again helped by the Baylor home game).

Bowl trip at the end of 03, attendance went down 3510 per game in 04.

I don't know the numbers for the 05 season.

Coach Mac made it clear at the signing event that he needed our help. He strongly suggested (to a group of mostly green clad....but not nearly enough...most notably C. Dan Smith) that a partially filled Apogee stadium is not conducive to them winning games there.....especially close ones.

So now we have a "chicken or egg" situation. Which is it? Win so the fans will come and fill up the stadium, or get the stadium full first so the winning will then follow?

The bowl years didn't affect attendance that much because of this.

2001 - Started 0-5

2002 - Started 1-5

2003 - Started 1-3

2004 - Started 0-4

We also got stomped in some of those early season games. The "best" start 2003 included the Baylor win and a 24 point loss to Ark. and a 34 point loss to OU.

That is no way to build a fan base, going 2-17 to start 4 Bowl Seasons.

[UNTFan23]

The bowl years didn't affect attendance that much because of this.

2001 - Started 0-5

2002 - Started 1-5

2003 - Started 1-3

2004 - Started 0-4

We also got stomped in some of those early season games. The "best" start 2003 included the Baylor win and a 24 point loss to Ark. and a 34 point loss to OU.

That is no way to build a fan base, going 2-17 to start 4 Bowl Seasons.

But we want a P5 at home!!!!!one!!elevens!

[VideoEagle]

So now we have a "chicken or egg" situation. Which is it? Win so the fans will come and fill up the stadium, or get the stadium full first so the winning will then follow?

If you look at Baylor and TCU, their attendance didn't start to climb significantly until they started winning. However, they did manage a noticeable but not huge improvement in attendance right before they started to win.

[UNT90]

Magic bullets. They are hunting for magic bullets. Now the magic bullet seems to be to get P5 teams in Apogee, that will fix everything.

No on really wants to face the fact that the only way to build this program is to win consistently for years. Mainly because we have never done it at any level. But thems the facts.

No, it show our alumni we are actually serious about athletics.

But you are right. We aren't.

So carry on losing for the next 20 years.

[UNTLifer]

No, it show our alumni we are actually serious about athletics.

But you are right. We aren't.

So carry on losing for the next 20 years.

No, our alumni want to see wins, not getting stomped at home by a P5 team. Win and they will come. Build the fanbase through our students and young alumni. The older alumni either no longer care or argue over how to build attendance and our team's confidnece.

[UNT90]

2001-2004

Wins against teams that matter.

[UNTLifer]

2001-2004

Wins against teams that matter.

2, Baylor and Cincy. Attendance sucked.

[FirefightnRick]

That NC State game is part of a 2-for-1 deal. ODU played at NC State last year and will return to Raleigh, NC next year. ODU also has two FCS team on the docket this season.

And?

Rick

[SilverEagle]

If you look at Baylor and TCU, their attendance didn't start to climb significantly until they started winning. However, they did manage a noticeable but not huge improvement in attendance right before they started to win.

.....and this is what needs to be looked at by the administration. What sort things did TCU and Baylor do to get their attendance numbers up before consistent winning kicked in?

[DeepGreen]

.....and this is what needs to be looked at by the administration. What sort things did TCU and Baylor do to get their attendance numbers up before consistent winning kicked in?

Hired really good coaches???

[UNT90]

Got Waco and Fort Worth city governments to partner with them?

[casual fan]

A little light on their winning schedules

Baylor

2010 7 home games beat Sam Houston 34-3

2011 8 home games beat SF Austin 48-0

2012 7 home games beat Sam Houston 48-23

2013 8 home games beat Wofford 69-3

2014 7 home games beat Northwestern St 70-6

TCU

2010 7 home games beat Tenn Tech 62-7

2011 7 home games beat Portland St 55-13

2012 6 home games beat Grambling 56-0

2013 7 home games beat SE Louisiana 38-17

2014 7 home games beat Samford 48-14

It also helps answer the question as to why it seems impossible to schedule a home and home.

In Baylors case, some years all their out of conference games are in Waco.

[greenit]

Baylor is a P5 still scheduling for bowl eligibility. On scale, as bad or worse than ours from their fan point of view.

[NT91]

I don't think anyone wants to come to NT to play.

[untjim1995]

2, Baylor and Cincy. Attendance sucked.

It didn't suck when we crushed Baylor at Fouts that season--we set the record for highest attendance for a UNT game in Denton, with over 29k in attendance.

Cincy was a bowl game in NO--which featured a fairly good traveling party for us, many of whom found it easier to go all the way to New Orleans than it ever was to make it Fouts for a game...

Just winning against low level teams doesn't move the needle enough with attendance--2001-2004 proved this very clearly, as did 2013. The following seasons never saw a huge uptick in attendance. We have to beat someone that people care about beating. It would be awesome to do that in a game in Denton, just as it was when we clobbered Baylor 52-14 in 2003, which remains the highest point that a UNT fan has ever enjoyed at Fouts/Apogee. Do I think you can get Baylor, TCU, or Tech to play here now? No chance. And since it appears as if the P5s are really going to drop playing G5 road games in the future, it won't get any better on that front. But BYU, Boise State, UH, UCF, and other stronger G5 schools can be played here. A win (or evne a close loss) to those kind of teams in the G5 would help increase interest and attendance more than plowing over Nicholls State did, or certainly more than struggling with Texas Southern.

I really hope yall enjoy the Portland State game, the Incarnate Word game, and the Abilene Christian game at Apogee. It just doesn't move the needle at all for the rest of us...

[DeepGreen]

It didn't suck when we crushed Baylor at Fouts that season--we set the record for highest attendance for a UNT game in Denton, with over 29k in attendance.

Cincy was a bowl game in NO--which featured a fairly good traveling party for us, many of whom found it easier to go all the way to New Orleans than it ever was to make it Fouts for a game...

Just winning against low level teams doesn't move the needle enough with attendance--2001-2004 proved this very clearly, as did 2013. The following seasons never saw a huge uptick in attendance. We have to beat someone that people care about beating. It would be awesome to do that in a game in Denton, just as it was when we clobbered Baylor 52-14 in 2003, which remains the highest point that a UNT fan has ever enjoyed at Fouts/Apogee. Do I think you can get Baylor, TCU, or Tech to play here now? No chance. And since it appears as if the P5s are really going to drop playing G5 road games in the future, it won't get any better on that front. But BYU, Boise State, UH, UCF, and other stronger G5 schools can be played here. A win (or evne a close loss) to those kind of teams in the G5 would help increase interest and attendance more than plowing over Nicholls State did, or certainly more than struggling with Texas Southern.

I really hope yall enjoy the Portland State game, the Incarnate Word game, and the Abilene Christian game at Apogee. It just doesn't move the needle at all for the rest of us...

This.^^^^^^^^^

But one correction, in 1968 we beat Cincinnati 55-34 at Fouts Field.

[emmitt01]

It didn't suck when we crushed Baylor at Fouts that season--we set the record for highest attendance for a UNT game in Denton, with over 29k in attendance.

Cincy was a bowl game in NO--which featured a fairly good traveling party for us, many of whom found it easier to go all the way to New Orleans than it ever was to make it Fouts for a game...

Just winning against low level teams doesn't move the needle enough with attendance--2001-2004 proved this very clearly, as did 2013. The following seasons never saw a huge uptick in attendance. We have to beat someone that people care about beating. It would be awesome to do that in a game in Denton, just as it was when we clobbered Baylor 52-14 in 2003, which remains the highest point that a UNT fan has ever enjoyed at Fouts/Apogee. Do I think you can get Baylor, TCU, or Tech to play here now? No chance. And since it appears as if the P5s are really going to drop playing G5 road games in the future, it won't get any better on that front. But BYU, Boise State, UH, UCF, and other stronger G5 schools can be played here. A win (or evne a close loss) to those kind of teams in the G5 would help increase interest and attendance more than plowing over Nicholls State did, or certainly more than struggling with Texas Southern.

I really hope yall enjoy the Portland State game, the Incarnate Word game, and the Abilene Christian game at Apogee. It just doesn't move the needle at all for the rest of us...

Gotta disagree on that one. 2001-2004 didn't "move the needle" because, even though we won all of our conference games, we came into those conference games after getting our teeth kicked in on the road. Starting a year 0-4 and then finishing up 8-4 is useless if you've lost the casual fans during the first 4 games.

I agree with everything else you said though. I would have ZERO problem with an OOC schedule that looks like this:

Minnesota (or the like)- Away

Texas State- Home

ULL- Away

Nichols- Home

At least there is a very real possibility of being 4-0, 3-1 or at worst 2-2 going into our conference slate.

[MeanGreenHoops]

Gotta disagree on that one. 2001-2004 didn't "move the needle" because, even though we won all of our conference games, we came into those conference games after getting our teeth kicked in on the road. Starting a year 0-4 and then finishing up 8-4 is useless if you've lost the casual fans during the first 4 games.

I agree with everything else you said though. I would have ZERO problem with an OOC schedule that looks like this:

Minnesota (or the like)- Away

Texas State- Home

ULL- Away

Nichols- Home

At least there is a very real possibility of being 4-0, 3-1 or at worst 2-2 going into our conference slate.

Agree, i posted in the thread earlier this was our starts to the bowl years.

2001 - Started 0-5

2002 - Started 1-5

2003 - Started 1-3

2004 - Started 0-4

This does not build a fan base.

[Cerebus]

Agree, i posted in the thread earlier this was our starts to the bowl years.

2001 - Started 0-5

2002 - Started 1-5

2003 - Started 1-3

2004 - Started 0-4

This does not build a fan base.

When you want to talk about brutal schedules, look who those non conf losses were to:

(P5 teams in red)

2001

TCU

@ #3 OU

@ Texas TEch

@ USF

2002

@ #3 UT

@ Alabama

@ TCU

@ Arizona

2003

@ #1 OU

(We Beat Baylor here at home)

@ Air Force

@ 14 Arkansas

2004

@ #7 UT

@ Colorado

@ Baylor

Non Conf 2001-2004

1-14

13 games on the road, 2 at home

12 games against P5, 3 against G5

5 games against AP ranked teams, 3 in the top 5

3 road games at P5 schools every year

Compared to Mac's first 4 years:

4-10

9 games on the road, 5 at home

7 games agianst P5, 7 against G5

4 games agaisnt AP ranked teams, 2 in the top 5

1.5 road games at P5 schools every year

Edited February 20, 2015 by Cerebus

[BillySee58]

A little light on their winning schedules

Baylor

2010 7 home games beat Sam Houston 34-3

2011 8 home games beat SF Austin 48-0

2012 7 home games beat Sam Houston 48-23

2013 8 home games beat Wofford 69-3

2014 7 home games beat Northwestern St 70-6

TCU

2010 7 home games beat Tenn Tech 62-7

2011 7 home games beat Portland St 55-13

2012 6 home games beat Grambling 56-0

2013 7 home games beat SE Louisiana 38-17

2014 7 home games beat Samford 48-14

It also helps answer the question as to why it seems impossible to schedule a home and home.

In Baylors case, some years all their out of conference games are in Waco.

I feel like a lot of people think that a potential P5 home and home and our annual home game against an FCS school are mutually exclusive games. They are not.

Here's our schedule formula for each year:

- 1 game where we play on the road against a top-tier P5 opponent, only a one-game contract with no return game and we get at least $800K.

- 1 game where we will play at home, usually against an FCS opponent, usually a one-game contract with no return to play them at their stadium. Hopefully costing us no more than $500K.

- 2 home-and-home series, that are set mirror each other (i.e. in the years which we are at home for one series, we will be away for the other and vice versa)

If we get a P5 home and home, it would fit in that last slot. It would not bump out the home FCS pay game. If you want a P5 home and home, look towards the SMU and Army series. Those are the series that are taking the spot on our schedule away from a potential P5 home and home. Personally, I think bringing in and beating schools like Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, etc will do more for us than Army. That's JMO. Army is not a bad series, but I'd rather have an opponent like those I just mentioned. I think beating them is realistic and it'd look better going across the ticker on ESPN, so to speak.

Edited February 20, 2015 by BillySee58