UNT Dallas law school gets creative

greenit · February 9, 2015

There was a lot of political arm twisting from some Dallas politicians that forced the law school to be associated with UNT-D. Some of those same politicians are the same ones either in jail or on the verge of jail.

Hopefully the UNT-D experiment will end soon and everything will consolidate with the main campus.

UNTLifer · February 9, 2015

And Lee F. Jackson will be replaced.

GrayEagle · February 9, 2015

And the beat goes on....

The few law schools that have closed in the last thirty years have been small, private schools mostly unattached to a university. They were expensive and mainly propped up by banks.

I couldn't find any public law schools that had been closed or were in danger of closing. If there are any possibilities they would be in states where the population is static or declining and there is already an abundance of law schools. Texas, where there only four public law schools (UNT will be the 5th) for a population of more than 25 million, is in better shape than most any state. There are four private colleges of law (three attached to a university) but due to cost are possibly less stable should the economy worsen.

It was a bit of a bummer that the law school was attached to a satellite campus but I have to look at it being a part of the University of North Texas system. After all, I don't hear many complaints that the medical school is not attached to the Denton campus. I'm a little proud of the Health Science Center; especially it's Emergency Medicine and Forensics. which are gaining renown across the country. Also, the College of Pharmacy is located at UNTHSC, is not yet accredited, and I didn't hear any complaints when it opened

When the College of Law is finally accredited I believe that we will point with pride that the University of North Texas will take its place among the complete universities in the nation.

Edited February 9, 2015 by GrayEagle

Harry · February 9, 2015

I think they are adjusting as best they can based on the unprecedented changes in the legal education field. No one could have predicted that the market would drop as bad as it did and Wesleyan has and always will be in Fort Worth not Dallas. So it is easy to cast stones after the fact.

The Dallas legal community is one of the strongest in the country. UNT's law school will be able to lean on that as they forge an identity.

There is a market for a lower priced legal education. Not everyone has the resources to attend SMU. This will help them build up as they work on their accreditations and facilities etc.

UNT has not had a physical presence in Dallas despite the fact we claim it as our town. We now have a couple of flags flying there and while their reputations still need to be developed it is an accomplishment that could pay dividends down the road.

Like any new endeavor they both will struggle to get their sea legs under them. I can remember people criticizing the UNT medical school way back when and now it's a fairly respected institution of learning. These things take time.

I think more reasonable criticism would be focused on our Systems poor job of handling the accounting... That's a system which has been around for 100 years and knew better. There are no excuses for that.

UNT has STRUGGLED to get the Dallas business and philanthropic community behind us. The UNT Dallas and UNT law schools were steps to try and open up those channels. They will not immediately become Harvard or Yale but do give us a presence and voice we haven't had in the past.

untjim1995 · February 9, 2015

And Lee F. Jackson will be replaced.

I wouldn't hold my breath on this--if he didn't get fired because of the accounting fiasco, this isn't gonna get him. Hell, the accounting fiasco didn't even come with so much as a wrist slap--instead he got EXTENDED by the BOR.

When all you care about is "value", this is what you get. Music and arts are inexpensive ways to celebrate the university's culture. So is low cost tuition. These two criteria completely define who UNT is to most of the citizenry in the Metroplex. Its all about cost...always has been, always will be--it doesn't matter if its athletics, administration, tution rates, etc..its always about staying at the top of the "values" rankings.

greenit · February 9, 2015

I wouldn't mind the law school being downtown, but would prefer to keep everything under the UNT main campus to keep from fragmenting system numbers.

Same with UNTHSC. It will be nice when that is under the main UNT umbrella. Get the MD program approved, consolidate under UNT, while you are at it add a nursing program, and call it a day.

MeanGreenTexan · February 9, 2015

I wouldn't mind the law school being downtown, but would prefer to keep everything under the UNT main campus to keep from fragmenting system numbers.
Same with UNTHSC. It will be nice when that is under the main UNT umbrella. Get the MD program approved, consolidate under UNT, while you are at it add a nursing program, and call it a day.

How 'bout we let the 'un-accredited' law school stay under UNT-D, then swap it when it gets accredited? Why rush it?

Sure would love to have a system Chancellor who attended the University and also has alot of political clout... like maybe a guy who runs a firm that does many politicians' & politicians' supporters taxes? A guy who currently chairs the UNT BOR, and graduated with a Bachelors & Masters from our beloved Alma Mater?

greenit · February 9, 2015

Isn't the accreditation a chicken/egg thing? My understanding is every new school goes through the same process. We are seeing it because the law school is brand new.

Eagle1855 · February 9, 2015

Isn't the accreditation a chicken/egg thing? My understanding is every new school goes through the same process. We are seeing it because the law school is brand new.

You're absolutely right. My frustration is an apparent unwillingness to commit to excellence in any of these endeavors and to instead give off a "hey, this is going to be an adequate municipal university."

Again, maybe I expect too much. I just don't know why you'd want to do anything if the goal wasn't to be the best. Even if you fall short, you're still pretty damned good.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Eagle1855

GrandGreen · February 9, 2015

Bottom line is the law school isn't helping the UNT system's reputation.

Why?, this is a startup; that seems to be doing very well. I don't know what the long range plans are, and I would be disappointed if it's nothing more than what is currently stated. It seems rather obvious that NT Law is not going to be able to compete with long established schools at this point charging similar amounts with as high entrance requirements. It appears to me that they have hit on a formula that works that they can built upon.

Eagle1855 · February 9, 2015

Why?, this is a startup; that seems to be doing very well. I don't know what the long range plans are, and I would be disappointed if it's nothing more than what is currently stated. It seems rather obvious that NT Law is not going to be able to compete with long established schools at this point charging similar amounts with as high entrance requirements. It appears to me that they have hit on a formula that works that they can built upon.

I don't see the value in flatly stating "we don’t angle or aspire to be a statewide or even regional law school."

Again, why wouldn't the goal to be to have a competitive, well-respected public law school?

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 9, 2015

Why?, this is a startup; that seems to be doing very well. I don't know what the long range plans are, and I would be disappointed if it's nothing more than what is currently stated. It seems rather obvious that NT Law is not going to be able to compete with long established schools at this point charging similar amounts with as high entrance requirements. It appears to me that they have hit on a formula that works that they can built upon.

First year, having a sub-150 average LSAT is fine. But if it continues to go that way (which I believe it might) then it will be the 2nd worst law school in Texas based on numbers from incoming students. It wants to appeal to non-traditional students in a legal climate where employers get 100's of applications for each position and would love to mark certain applicants off the list based solely on what law school they attend. The low-paying legal jobs that some have mentioned might appeal to UNT-law graduates are actually more competitive than some might think. There are lots of underemployed SMU grads who are going for those jobs too. SMU law provides plenty of lawyers for Dallas and the new A&M law provides plenty for Fort Worth (while now being able to market itself as the value public law school). There just isn't much need for another law school in the area in my opinion.

Full disclosure: current law student.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 9, 2015

And please don't get me wrong, I really,really want UNT-Law to succeed. It is just very hard for new law schools right now especially when other more highly ranked schools are now accepting students with lower numbers due to decline in applications. A&M law knew this and it is why it bought an existing school rather than starting a brand new one. In a lot of ways the new law school has been a victim of circumstances which is really unfortunate.

KRAM1 · February 9, 2015

Yes. Who mentioned accreditation outside of me when I said the number of law schools closing right now and the concern about decreased enrollment could effect accreditation? There's a committee and the current legal climate can certainly impact their decision when deciding on accreditation. There's a provisional period and then the ABA decides. Bar passage and employment statistics are factors in their final decision.

Several folks...go back and read the thread.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 9, 2015

Several folks...go back and read the thread.

Let me ask you this, coming from someone who constantly states that folks can't have opinion on things if they "weren't there." Are you in the legal community?

Its somewhat difficult to explain why opening a new law school is a bad idea to someone who didn't attend (or have some involvement with someone who did attend) law school from around 2007-present. I can honestly say i'm one of the more positive ones about the state of things right now but I can admit that as much as I love my alma mater its not the right time for them to open a law school. Accreditation can't be skipped over, I don't think anyone contends that, I think in this climate however its either purchase an existing law school or don't open one at all.

greenit · February 9, 2015

Now you've gone and done it.

KRAM1 · February 9, 2015

Let me ask you this, coming from someone who constantly states that folks can't have opinion on things if they "weren't there." Are you in the legal community?
Its somewhat difficult to explain why opening a new law school is a bad idea to someone who didn't attend (or have some involvement with someone who did attend) law school from around 2007-present. I can honestly say i'm one of the more positive ones about the state of things right now but I can admit that as much as I love my alma mater its not the right time for them to open a law school. Accreditation can't be skipped over, I don't think anyone contends that, I think in this climate however its either purchase an existing law school or don't open one at all.

Let me ask you this Mr. law student...where did I make any reference to whether I thought it was a good idea or not? I am not expressing an opinion on that one way or the other. You might want to bone up on reading comprehension....being a law student and all. My comments related ONLY to those who were knocking the school because of its non-accreditation....and their obvious lack of knowledge regarding accredidation processes. If being what, a first year law student, makes you an expert on whether a law school should be opened or not and what focus it will or will not have, then so be it. Not my fight....don't care at all either way. But, I do believe that the proof will come after several years as to whether it was a good idea or not. But, feel free to express what opinion you wish.

And,let's be clear...no where did I agree or disagree with your comments. You said you were the only one mentioning accredidation...I pointed you back to the thread where several folks had mentioned it. Then, you jump me for expressing opinions...which I did not express...on the validity of the law school itself. Reading comprehensiuon should not be that difficult...even for a first year law student. Where are you enrolled if not UNT? Baylor? SMU? Texas?

KRAM1 · February 9, 2015

Now you've gone and done it.

Yep! Ha! Plus 1 for you, Sir!

oldguystudent · February 9, 2015

Sure would love to have a system Chancellor who attended the University and also has alot of political clout... like maybe a guy who runs a firm that does many politicians' & politicians' supporters taxes? A guy who currently chairs the UNT BOR, and graduated with a Bachelors & Masters from our beloved Alma Mater?

I tend to agree with you on everything, but this one, oof. No.

MeanGreenTexan · February 9, 2015

I tend to agree with you on everything, but this one, oof. No.

Think he could be worse than a guy that even Checkfacts agrees is a total goober?

oldguystudent · February 10, 2015

Think he could be worse than a guy that even Checkfacts agrees is a total goober?

On this particular issue, I'm going to refrain from supporting arguments and quietly voice my dissent.

All About UNT · February 10, 2015

On this particular issue, I'm going to refrain from supporting arguments and quietly voice my dissent.

KRAM1 · February 10, 2015

Close, but no cigar .... Blink blink...that light can get crazy, huh? Didn't mis-read anything....just flat missed the first post. Pretty obvious, and note I was't incorrectly discussing anyone's position which, of course, would be a comprehension issue. My error, was in completely blowing by the first statement...yes, my mistake. So happy for you.

But, interestingly, the award was said to be $10,000 for the low round...three golfers tied for the low round. So how did UNT get $7500 in a three-way tie for a $10,000 pot? My source on the amount was the Dallas Morning News and the Golf Tournament announcers live, so not sure how UNT gets $7500 if that were true...maybe you can find that the prize was actually $22,500 or something like that. Don't know. Don't care enough to figure it out, just happy Ortiz did well and UNT gets a payday too.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · February 10, 2015

Let me ask you this Mr. law student...where did I make any reference to whether I thought it was a good idea or not? I am not expressing an opinion on that one way or the other. You might want to bone up on reading comprehension....being a law student and all. My comments related ONLY to those who were knocking the school because of its non-accreditation....and their obvious lack of knowledge regarding accredidation processes. If being what, a first year law student, makes you an expert on whether a law school should be opened or not and what focus it will or will not have, then so be it. Not my fight....don't care at all either way. But, I do believe that the proof will come after several years as to whether it was a good idea or not. But, feel free to express what opinion you wish.
And,let's be clear...no where did I agree or disagree with your comments. You said you were the only one mentioning accredidation...I pointed you back to the thread where several folks had mentioned it. Then, you jump me for expressing opinions...which I did not express...on the validity of the law school itself. Reading comprehensiuon should not be that difficult...even for a first year law student. Where are you enrolled if not UNT? Baylor? SMU? Texas?

I'll leave it at this, a provisional unaccredited law school is just that: unaccredited. I don't think anyone else mentioned anything beyond the fact that it was unaccredited, but I can't speak for everyone else.

KRAM1 · February 10, 2015

I'll leave it at this, a provisional unaccredited law school is just that: unaccredited. I don't think anyone else mentioned anything beyond the fact that it was unaccredited, but I can't speak for everyone else.

Since when?