Prairie View A&M (12/23/14)

GrandGreen · December 24, 2014

Well I should learn my lesson with Benford. I applauded his team this year because to me they look much more organized and focused. One game can't totally destroy that; but this was very close.

BillySee58 · December 24, 2014

Day-after thoughts:

1. Magic number is 70

PVAMU scored 70 points last night. We're now 0-4 this year when an opposing team scores 70 points. Again, we don't have the firepower to keep up. We're going to really struggle to win games when the opposing team scores 70 points this year.

2. No firepower

Off of my last point, one of the things I've been clamoring about in between last season and this one is Benford has not brought us many scorers. After another big game against a non-D1 opponent (Langston), Jeremy Combs raised his scoring average above double digits. It has now fallen below and, I believe, will stay there with Tech and CUSA competition ahead.

The only double digit scorers during the Benford era have been JJ guys (Jordan Williams, Tony Mitchell, Roger Franklin, and Alzee Williams). Only Jordan remains, and he's our only player averaging in double figures.

3. Guards we brought in

Another thing I was highly skeptical of was bringing in 4 guards last recruiting class who, combined, only had 1 other D1 offer. Greg White-Pittman had a New Orleans offer, while JUCO guards DeAndre Harris, Carrington Ward, and Todd Eaglin all had 0 other D1 offers.

Looks like we've hit on 1 of 4, which is about the rate you'd expect. Harris has shown plenty of ability and had some good games. GWP is still young, but he hasn't done much of anything against D1 competition. Ward was basically the last guy off the bench, before suffering a season-ending injury. Last night GWP and Eaglin each stuffed the stat sheets with goose eggs across the board, as each player was 0-1 shooting with no other stats accumulated. GWP's scoring average now dips to 2.75 ppg against D1 competition and Eaglin 2.5 against D1 competition.

4. Sometimes teams just suck

And I'm not just referring to us. 2 teams we played this year who won tournament games and were among the last 32 teams standing in college basketball a year ago both heaved up bricks all game against us (SFA and Creighton). As Travis said, we live and die by whether or not the other team is hitting their open jumpers, with the zone we play.

We may be D1, in a pretty good conference in CUSA, but it's still college basketball. We're not playing the teams who will have players drafted in the first round of the draft this year. Even the teams that are "good" are still not great. The SFA and Creighton games proved to me that this strategy of giving the other team open jumpers and hoping their shot is broke all night can pay off more than a fair share of times over a 30+ game schedule. I just don't expect us to win any significant games in the CUSA tournament.

UNT90 · December 24, 2014

Benford also said in his post game interview that this was the most embarrassing loss in his time at UNT. I know it's hard for him to keep track since there have been so many, but:

UAH would disagree.

Embarrassment on a national scale > a third year loss in a failed head coaching experiment.

Edited December 24, 2014 by UNT90

FirefightnRick · December 24, 2014

I can't even count the number of games under Johnny where we battled in the 2nd half and it all came down to us making those critical end of game FTs when every play involves a foul. Win by 1 or 3 and it was because Josh White made a FT and the other team didn't.

FIFY

Rick

Harry · December 24, 2014

It's just extremely discouraging and takes away all and more of the positives tied to the Creighton win. Not the Christmas present we were hoping for at all. ;-(

oldguystudent · December 24, 2014

Edited because it looks pretty strange that the post to which I was responding got deleted then reposted after my response.

Edited December 24, 2014 by oldguystudent

rws69 · December 24, 2014

When I got in my car last night after the game, I asked my friend "What was that?"

Green P1 · December 24, 2014

It's just extremely discouraging and takes away all and more of the positives tied to the Creighton win. Not the Christmas present we were hoping for at all. ;-(

I don't know... There is one Christmas present we're all hoping for that I think could make it all better!

the green rokemi · December 25, 2014

Stats are not going to show that a coach outs anymore or less importance on free throws. Every team practices free throws and every coach preaches capitalizing at the line. I refuse to believe that Benford tells his guys to miss free throws and not practice them.
Clearly free throws are an issue but it's not like they do not shoot them in practice. They have to fall eventually. I would be more concerned about defense and figure out how to cover the hot hand and stay poised.

Are we sure benford practices free throws? Are we sure practice happens when no one is around? I've watched our team and there are times where we look like we're making stuff up as we go. Are we just a glorified intermural team? Seriously this era is unreal

Got5onIt · December 25, 2014

It's just extremely discouraging and takes away all and more of the positives tied to the Creighton win. Not the Christmas present we were hoping for at all. ;-(

Unless you were hoping for Santa to kick you square in the tenders, Christmas morning...

the green rokemi · December 25, 2014

Of course we have practices.... I have talked to someone who has been to practices under both JJ and Benford. Different styles, different game plans. The talk and the fundamentals are the same. Offensively vits not that different. It's college basketball. You swing it around the perimeter and look for the open three. As the clock runs down you set some screens and attack the paint. One reason why I wih the shot clock was shorter.

well of course they practiced when somebody was around. What happens when that someone isn't around? I suspect it looks a lot like the green-white scrimmage.

Remember benford's first scrimmage? He got on the microphone and told the crowd "we will emphasize defense defense defense" then the scrimmage started and his team demonstrated no defense whatsoever. Ironically, that was the beginning of the end.

Edited December 25, 2014 by the green rokemi

Andrew · December 25, 2014

well of course they practiced when somebody was around. What happens when that someone isn't around? I suspect it looks a lot like the green-white scrimmage.
Remember benford's first scrimmage? He got on the microphone and told the crowd "we will emphasize defense defense defense" then the scrimmage started and his team demonstrated no defense whatsoever. Ironically, that was the beginning of the end.

All late summer and early fall they uploaded video clips of their practices to their YouTube account..... Obviously they are not going to show on video what they are doing on defense and offense but they still showed drill after drill after drill and it's no different than what any other team does.

The lose is unacceptable but to insinuate that the team does not practice is ludicrous. Not sure how we bounce back from a terrible loss but beating Tech and UTEP might just do that.

UNTFan23 · December 26, 2014

All late summer and early fall they uploaded video clips of their practices to their YouTube account..... Obviously they are not going to show on video what they are doing on defense and offense but they still showed drill after drill after drill and it's no different than what any other team does.
The lose is unacceptable but to insinuate that the team does not practice is ludicrous. Not sure how we bounce back from a terrible loss but beating Tech and UTEP might just do that.

No one is saying the team doesn't practice during official practices but what about outside of that? If the players aren't bothering to go to the lovely dedicated gym to practice free throws or whatever on their own, then I'd say it's showing.

KRAM1 · December 27, 2014

No one is saying the team doesn't practice during official practices but what about outside of that? If the players aren't bothering to go to the lovely dedicated gym to practice free throws or whatever on their own, then I'd say it's showing.

Sort of like QB's who don't put in the extra time, huh? Something about being able to lead a horse to water, but......

UNT90 · December 27, 2014

Sort of like QB's who don't put in the extra time, huh? Something about being able to lead a horse to water, but......

Still on the RV train of blaming the players, I see...

In football, we are talking about one specific player with proof (workout logs) that he slacked off.

In basketball, it's seems the narrative from the AD is "anyone but Benford's fault."

It's really, really, really sad.

Edited December 27, 2014 by UNT90

UNTFan23 · December 28, 2014

Still on the RV train of blaming the players, I see...
In football, we are talking about one specific player with proof (workout logs) that he slacked off.
In basketball, it's seems the narrative from the AD is "anyone but Benford's fault."
It's really, really, really sad.

I would say it is on Bedford to emphasize the importance to practice outside of organized team practices. At the same time it also falls on the player to take what the coach has to say about putting in extra individual time to improve their skills. So in truth it reflects poorly on both the players and the coaching staff.

In regards to the player in football, I think even the coaching staff called out that player as not showing the needed dedication as to why he was not a starter. I doubt that happened in a vacuum.

Andrew · December 28, 2014

I would say it is on Bedford to emphasize the importance to practice outside of organized team practices. At the same time it also falls on the player to take what the coach has to say about putting in extra individual time to improve their skills. So in truth it reflects poorly on both the players and the coaching staff.
In regards to the player in football, I think even the coaching staff called out that player as not showing the needed dedication as to why he was not a starter. I doubt that happened in a vacuum.

My guess is he fully they are using that extra time to dedicate themselves in the classroom. I liked that the walk on Cambell did not play until he made sure his grades were in order and had taken his engendering finals. Take care of bussines! Baskwtball is at the bottom of the totem poll when life comes down to it.

BillySee58 · December 28, 2014

Sort of like QB's who don't put in the extra time, huh? Something about being able to lead a horse to water, but......

See, here's the thing with all these "coaches fault vs. player's fault" arguments. The hole in the statement of saying, or implying, that the coaches can lead the players to water but can't get them to drink. They're the ones getting and picking their horses (recruiting). So it all falls back to the coach, in college basketball. If you're horse (player) won't drink then you got the wrong horse, and that's on you, not the horse.

It's not like a public school high school coach who, as far as fielding a team, is at the mercy of what kids live in that school zone, attend the high school, and chose to tryout. Then you could maybe make that argument.

Edited December 28, 2014 by BillySee58

KRAM1 · December 28, 2014

See, here's the thing with all these "coaches fault vs. player's fault" arguments. The hole in the statement of saying, or implying, that the coaches can lead the players to water but can't get them to drink. They're the ones getting and picking their horses (recruiting). So it all falls back to the coach, in college basketball. If you're horse (player) won't drink then you got the wrong horse, and that's on you, not the horse.
It's not like a public school high school coach who, as far as fielding a team, is at the mercy of what kids live in that school zone, attend the high school, and chose to tryout. Then you could maybe make that argument.

Hey, Billy, get back with me on that concept after you have about 30-40 years experience in hiring and firing employees. Sometimes, even after extensive background and prior experience research, as a hiring manager you make the wrong call. I know, amazing concept that hiring managers are not perfect, and sometimes the employee looks great and talks a good game and has a great resume, but just won't cut it on your "team". Happens...so, after you have recruited and interviewed and managed employees for 30-35 years get back with me on that "lead a horse to water" thing being all on the hiring manager.

UNT90 · December 28, 2014

Hey, Billy, get back with me on that concept after you have about 30-40 years experience in hiring and firing employees. Sometimes, even after extensive background and prior experience research, as a hiring manager you make the wrong call. I know, amazing concept that hiring managers are not perfect, and sometimes the employee looks great and talks a good game and has a great resume, but just won't cut it on your "team". Happens...so, after you have recruited and interviewed and managed employees for 30-35 years get back with me on that "lead a horse to water" thing being all on the hiring manager.

The problem isn't the hiring of one ineffective employee, but a string of bad hires that demonstrates a fault in the hirer.

Throw on top of that the stubborn refusal to admit a mistake, and you have a program that has struggled below mediocracy for just about the entire tenure of a certain individual.

And that has been 14 years...

Edited December 28, 2014 by UNT90

greenminer · December 28, 2014

Hey, Billy, get back with me on that concept after you have about 30-40 years experience in hiring and firing employees. Sometimes, even after extensive background and prior experience research, as a hiring manager you make the wrong call. I know, amazing concept that hiring managers are not perfect, and sometimes the employee looks great and talks a good game and has a great resume, but just won't cut it on your "team". Happens...so, after you have recruited and interviewed and managed employees for 30-35 years get back with me on that "lead a horse to water" thing being all on the hiring manager.

The point is not perfection or human error, it was that the responsibility still falls on the leader.

If this was the story of one or two recruits, I don't think this discussion would exist.

Greendylan · December 28, 2014

With all due respect, the problem, as I see it, is that successful mid (or high) major programs don't routinely hire coaches who seem to be stymied by their own players' personalities. And, on the rare occasion when they do hire someone who consistently can't seem to inspire his players, they quickly change course. I don't think it takes 40 years of hiring/firing experience to recognize that we do not compare favorably to many of our peer athletic programs.

UNT90 · December 28, 2014

With all due respect, the problem, as I see it, is that successful mid (or high) major programs don't routinely hire coaches who seem to be stymied by their own players' personalities. And, on the rare occasion when they do hire someone who consistently can't seem to inspire his players, they quickly change course. I don't think it takes 40 years of hiring/firing experience to recognize that we do not compare favorably to many of our peer athletic programs.

Spot on

BillySee58 · December 28, 2014

The point is not perfection or human error, it was that the responsibility still falls on the leader.
If this was the story of one or two recruits, I don't think this discussion would exist.

Exactly. Even the best bosses will make a bad hire here and there over a large sample size. Good coaches will get recruits here and there who don't have good motivation, over a large sample size. But the good coaches and recruiters get enough good and motivated players to where it doesn't matter.

If a team is shooting free throws poorly (the original argument in this thread) then the two things discussed that it can be are:

A ) Recruiting and bringing in bad free throw shooters.

B ) The players (who you recruited) are not motivated enough to put in the work outside of practice to become good free throw shooters.

Both fall on the head coach. That's all there is to it. This is his team with just one player left from the JJ era (Jordan Williams, our leading scorer). After 20 signings by Coach Benford over the last two and a half years, not including the 2 fall 2014 signees, this is now officially all his responsibility and all on him. If he can win and get the job done than people won't care about the occasional Greg Wesley or Chris Jones.

Edited December 29, 2014 by BillySee58

greenit · December 29, 2014

If you can get past the first season, I know an impossibility, he has been very MEH. While not great, MEH is light years better than when you include the 1st year.

Unfortunately for Benford, he convinced Mitchell and Jones to stay. If those two would have left immediately, expectations would have been lowered and the whole story may have changed. Hard to tell if Benford would have been blamed for them leaving, but I suspect that if they would have left he may not have been in the same jam he is in with the fanbase.

I am pulling for the team to go .500 or better (somehow) during conference so we don't have to go through another hiring process.

I really like our home conference schedule. I am hoping to make most of them if possible and as long as we are at least being competitive.