Overrated

UNT86 · December 14, 2014

I continue to read how some schools have perceived advantage in recruiting because the new head coach has "Texas ties".

I coached high school football in Texas for 27 years. I saw players I coached sign with schools in the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, C-USA, and the Sun Belt. I even had two play for NT under two different staffs. Two of the players I coached are currently in the NFL.

In all that time, it never once mattered to the player that the coach had "Texas ties". All that mattered was the size of the school, the conference in which they played, and the degrees offered. The kids could not care less that the head coach or any assistant coach was or is from Texas.

Additionally, it never mattered to any player that their high school head coach or position coach attended a particular college. In many cases, they knew where the coaches went to school, but that did not mean they were going to consider or follow that choice. Again, it came down to the best offer the player could get.

As a coach, we did try to guide the kids choice. I would ask 1) Do you like the school? 2) Do you like the coaches? 3) Do you think you will get a good education there? If the answer to all three was yes, I told the athlete to sign and go where they wanted, regardless of conference of size. In all the time I coached, I NEVER saw any coach do otherwise.

We also told them to honor their commitment. Once you made a verbal commitment to a school, you should honor that commitment (although the current staff at Texas Tech made us rethink that commitment to them).

So, the fact that a coach has been in Texas at some point in their coaching career is WAY overrated. The kids really don't care about that and it doesn't take a genius to go see who Allen, Cedar Hill, and DeSoto have graduating this year.

Ben Gooding · December 14, 2014

I agree. It's media hype that is pushed through by X school to create the buzz. Nothing more, nothing less.

GrandGreen · December 14, 2014

I doubt if Texas ties initially means much, but it sure doesn't in a coach's fifth year.

FirefightnRick · December 14, 2014

I doubt if Texas ties initially means much, but it sure doesn't in a coach's fifth year.

It sure doesn't. At least not for Emanual Moore, who just wants someone to get him the damn ball, and he does the rest.

https://twitter.com/emanmoore_20/status/543935855749234688/photo/1

Rick

Edited December 14, 2014 by FirefightnRick

greenminer · December 15, 2014

I always thought "ties" was meant professionally and had nothing to do with where you were born/raised.

NTXCoog · December 15, 2014

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Texas ties." About a decade ago, UH had a head coach with horrible relationships to Texas high school coaches. Some HS coaches wouldn't even allow UH coaches on campus. So poor relationships can definitely have an effect.

As far as positives of Texas ties, a HS coach can talk up a school or college coach. But more importantly, I think communication between coaches can have a huge influence. If a college coach has open lines with a HS coach, he may find hidden gems and late bloomers earlier in the process. Finding those players earlier allows the college coach to get a jump on recruiting which might give a recruiting advantage.

UNT86 · December 15, 2014

First of all, the head coach of a university rarely makes a visit to a school.

Each assistant coach has a territory that he is assigned to recruit. When the college coach arrives at the school, he meets with the HS head coach and asks which players can play at his level. The HS coach has a list ready with the players vital statistics (including his grades) and a film of each players top 15-20 plays. If the college coach likes what he sees on film and on paper, he will ask to meet the player.

As far as finding any hidden gems, there is no early advantage. A couple of years ago, we had a DL from South Garland committed to us until a week before signing day. Oklahoma had not offered him until the last week. Once the kid got an offer from OU, all the loyalty to and from us went right out the window.

The college coaches have looked at hundreds of players. There are no "hidden gems", just players that one school had rated lower than another that ended up being better than they thought. And I NEVER saw or heard of a head coach pushing one school or another on an athlete. The HS head coaches provide information to the college guys. That is all.

NTXCoog · December 15, 2014

First of all, the head coach of a university rarely makes a visit to a school.

Each assistant coach has a territory that he is assigned to recruit. When the college coach arrives at the school, he meets with the HS head coach and asks which players can play at his level. The HS coach has a list ready with the players vital statistics (including his grades) and a film of each players top 15-20 plays. If the college coach likes what he sees on film and on paper, he will ask to meet the player.

As far as finding any hidden gems, there is no early advantage. A couple of years ago, we had a DL from South Garland committed to us until a week before signing day. Oklahoma had not offered him until the last week. Once the kid got an offer from OU, all the loyalty to and from us went right out the window.

The college coaches have looked at hundreds of players. There are no "hidden gems", just players that one school had rated lower than another that ended up being better than they thought. And I NEVER saw or heard of a head coach pushing one school or another on an athlete. The HS head coaches provide information to the college guys. That is all.

Just because some players flip after their rankings move up doesn't mean all of them do. John O'Korn committed to UH because we were one of the first schools in the country to recruit him, even before he became a starting QB in high school. After he became a starter, he got offers from Arkansas, Miss St, UNC, and Louisville, but he remained a UH commit partly because UH was one of the first to recruit him.

So obviously there are examples of players flipping and players staying committed. But without that early recruiting push, some schools will not have a chance to get a player to commit early and then have a chance to close the deal even when a "bigger" school comes calling.

oldguystudent · December 15, 2014

First of all, the head coach of a university rarely makes a visit to a school.

Each assistant coach has a territory that he is assigned to recruit. When the college coach arrives at the school, he meets with the HS head coach and asks which players can play at his level. The HS coach has a list ready with the players vital statistics (including his grades) and a film of each players top 15-20 plays. If the college coach likes what he sees on film and on paper, he will ask to meet the player.

As far as finding any hidden gems, there is no early advantage. A couple of years ago, we had a DL from South Garland committed to us until a week before signing day. Oklahoma had not offered him until the last week. Once the kid got an offer from OU, all the loyalty to and from us went right out the window.

The college coaches have looked at hundreds of players. There are no "hidden gems", just players that one school had rated lower than another that ended up being better than they thought. And I NEVER saw or heard of a head coach pushing one school or another on an athlete. The HS head coaches provide information to the college guys. That is all.

Your posts are greatly undermining the gospel of UNT which states that every man, woman and child in the State of Texas and surrounding parts unknown seek out daily how they can personally screw the university.

NTXCoog · December 15, 2014

Other examples of Texas ties being important:

1) As soon as Art Briles is announced head coach at UH (keep in mind he had only be TT's RB coach for a couple of years), UH gets the commitment of Kevin Kolb, switching from Oklahoma State. That was the beginning of the re-emergence of UH football. Without Kolb (who later went on to be drafted and played in the NFL), any come back for UH would have taken much longer, if ever.

2) No hidden gems? Case Keenum was not recruited to a single other FBS school other than UH. He just went on to become the QB with the most career passing yards and also played in the NFL. Maybe he wasn't a hidden gem and other schools just had him ranked lower (or not at all), but having the network to find an unrated QB like that sure didn't hurt.

Having Texas ties may be overrated, and there may be larger obstacles that those ties won't be able to overcome, but I do think the ties can open some doors and not having any ties can create even more obstacles to overcome.

Green Mean · December 15, 2014

I may be totally wrong but didn't RG3 commit to Houston and changed his commitment to follow Briles to Baylor? If that's the case I would think Houston football would have emerged.

BillySee58 · December 15, 2014

I completely agree with this. Each kid is a separate recruitment. How coaches do with fostering that relationship and selling that individual kid, and his parents, on playing for your program is how you win recruiting battles and get kids who actually have other options. Potentially even better options.

NTXCoog · December 15, 2014

I may be totally wrong but didn't RG3 commit to Houston and changed his commitment to follow Briles to Baylor? If that's the case I would think Houston football would have emerged.

But does RGIII commit without Kevin Kolb's success? Or do Briles' Texas ties cause RGIII's commit?

BTW: we're having some of this Texas ties debate on the UH board too while trying to determine our next HC. Some fans are demanding TX HS ties. Some don't care as long as they have experience and a winning background.

And there was a prior comment about HC's not doing much of the recruiting. That is true in some cases. Depends on the player and the coach. The HC is not the only one who can have ties though. The position coaches are sometimes former HS HCs or have their communication network built up. Thus there's a tie there even if the college HC has no ties.

BillySee58 · December 15, 2014

Other examples of Texas ties being important:
1) As soon as Art Briles is announced head coach at UH (keep in mind he had only be TT's RB coach for a couple of years), UH gets the commitment of Kevin Kolb, switching from Oklahoma State. That was the beginning of the re-emergence of UH football. Without Kolb (who later went on to be drafted and played in the NFL), any come back for UH would have taken much longer, if ever.
2) No hidden gems? Case Keenum was not recruited to a single other FBS school other than UH. He just went on to become the QB with the most career passing yards and also played in the NFL. Maybe he wasn't a hidden gem and other schools just had him ranked lower (or not at all), but having the network to find an unrated QB like that sure didn't hurt.

Having Texas ties may be overrated, and there may be larger obstacles that those ties won't be able to overcome, but I do think the ties can open some doors and not having any ties can create even more obstacles to overcome.

Again, these examples have nothing to do with Texas ties. Fostering an individual relationship, yes. Texas ties, no.

Your example 1) Briles fostered an individual relationship with Kolb. How is that an example of Texas ties? Kolb clearly felt a strong bond with Briles and felt it would be a good opportunity and Briles would give him a chance.

Example 2) Keenum played for a pretty prominent program and had decent exposure. He didn't have any offers because he threw more interceptions than touchdowns in high school. But it was a great job of evaluating by Briles and realizing he had the skills if he was developed properly. Which he did develop him properly. Finding hidden gems takes relentless scouring and being able to be good at evaluating and projecting. I agree that knowing coaches helps, but if you misevaluate a kid or throw him an offer just because you know his coach, that doesn't do your program any good.

NTXCoog · December 15, 2014

Again, these examples have nothing to do with Texas ties. Fostering an individual relationship, yes. Texas ties, no.
Your example 1) Briles fostered an individual relationship with Kolb. How is that an example of Texas ties? Kolb clearly felt a strong bond with Briles and felt it would be a good opportunity and Briles would give him a chance.
Example 2) Keenum played for a pretty prominent program and had decent exposure. He didn't have any offers because he threw more interceptions than touchdowns in high school. But it was a great job of evaluating by Briles and realizing he had the skills if he was developed properly. Which he did develop him properly. Finding hidden gems takes relentless scouring and being able to be good at evaluating and projecting. I agree that knowing coaches helps, but if you misevaluate a kid or throw him an offer just because you know his coach, that doesn't do your program any good.

Sounds like you're trying to be a lawyer and get technical with the relationship.

How does Briles foster that individual relationships with Kolb without the Texas ties? If Briles had no Texas HS HC experience, would he have been able to have that individual relationship? No. Because he coached at Stephenville, Kolb looked up to Briles and wanted to play for him. Yes, there was an individual relationship, but that relationship does not exist without the Texas HS football experience.

GOMG2013 · December 15, 2014

You dont have to be from Texas, but if you want success recruiting Texas, you better have a relationship with these coaches. Recruiting Texas is a different animal. You can waste a lot of time and resources if you dont know what you are doing. Word travels fast in the Houston area. Feelings get hurt too. I have seen it first hand.

social media has helped schools get in contact with athletes without depending soley on hs coaches, but just like everything in business, connections help tremendously.

UNT90 · December 15, 2014

Kolb is pretty much an exception, as he graduated high school where Briles had established himself as a coaching legend. Of course Briles had connections to that staff and of course Briles established a connection with Kolb.

Hell, Kolb probably knew Briles from his time in a middle school feeder to Stephenville, which is EVERY middle school in Stephenville. There is every chance they had a close, even personal relationship before Briles left to coach at Tech.

If your are saying hire a guy from a big, winning high school program because of his connections to that program, I would caution you UH guys from traveling that path. We have been down it. It was a massive failure.