What Do You Expect From This Program

oldguystudent · December 2, 2014

Sometimes we're a tough team to root for, but overall we're headed in the right direction.

The Athletic Program is accomplishing its goals...

Baseball

Do you know something I don't?

oldguystudent · December 2, 2014

Not that anybody wants to look, but from 1998-2010, Utah State was a stellar 43-106 (.288). Also, their stadium only seats 25,000, so they clearly got that wrong and have no upside whatsoever.

To the first point, they've really had 2 good years - 2013 and 2014. hardly a sustained "reloading" success story to be exemplified as a great G5 story. That would more accurately describe their basketball program, where since 1998, they've had one head coach, Stew Morrill, lead them to a 384-143 (.729) record with 8 trips to the NCCAs, and 4 trips to the NIT. That's a G5 reloading sustainable success story that we could discuss on the other forum.

meangreendork · December 2, 2014

This is a myth. There are a couple of outliers like Boise that can reload, but that's the exception.

Southern Miss used to be one of those re-load teams. What mid-major has gone to a bowl 9 out of 10 seasons? How about 4 out of 5 seasons?

These consistent winners might make it to a bowl 2 out of 3 seasons, but weren't not there yet. Which is why I expect 1 bowl every 3 seasons.

Oh man, USM. They were doing really well for a few years and then BAM, last season happened to them.

Cerebus · December 2, 2014

I had a huge post half finished, then I was a moron and accidentally closed the wrong browser window, so consider this the Cliff Notes version:

I expect to be one of the top G5 programs in the country. I don't expect to reach it next year, but I expect to see enough momentum in the program to be able to believe that is happening.

Off the field:

1) Engage the community. Make Denton a Mean Green Football town. Either be the good cop or the bad cop like the ASU AD, but either way Denton has to come to appreciate what is here.

2) Engage the students: RV has done some real good work here, more can be done.

3) Engage the Faculty/Staff: Long way to go here, 20 emails a year asking to buy season tickets isn't engagement.

On the field:

Schedule, hire and win at the rate of our real competition, the top of the G5. BSU has gone to a bowl game every year since 1999. ECU is 9 out of the last 10. BYU is making it ten straight. Since coming to 1A Marshall has been in one 11 our of 18 years. After this year Rice is going to be 5/9 years in a bowl. ASU is about to make it 4 straight. MTSU 5 out of 6. Air Force 7 out of 8.

There is no reason this program can't get to the point where we go to bowl more often than we do. 75% of the time would be a good long range bar.

I know, RIGHT NOW, we don't have the revenue to hire and schedule to make this happen. Raising that money is the AD's job. If they have gotten to the point where they are so beat down that they no longer innovate and just fall back on the same old approach that gets the minimum done, there needs to be new blood brought in.

Just look at what the ASU AD has done. If they can do that in Jonesboro, there is no reason it can't be done in Denton.

Withers940 · December 2, 2014

In my mind, it all depends on what Mac/Rick decide to do this offseason with hires/fires and what direction they go in to decide what our future has in store for us. If we stick with Chico and Hire a boring DC, that tells us we have more of the same kind of football in store for us. But if they fire Chico and go out and hire a flashy new OC and DC, I think we might have a bright future ahead of us. No its not going to happen over night but if we get two guys in here that can boost our team moral and can go out and recruit, sky is the limit.

SilverEagle · December 2, 2014

I had a huge post half finished, then I was a moron and accidentally closed the wrong browser window, so consider this the Cliff Notes version:

I expect to be one of the top G5 programs in the country. I don't expect to reach it next year, but I expect to see enough momentum in the program to be able to believe that is happening.

Off the field:

1) Engage the community. Make Denton a Mean Green Football town. Either be the good cop or the bad cop like the ASU AD, but either way Denton has to come to appreciate what is here.

2) Engage the students: RV has done some real good work here, more can be done.

3) Engage the Faculty/Staff: Long way to go here, 20 emails a year asking to buy season tickets isn't engagement.

On the field:

Schedule, hire and win at the rate of our real competition, the top of the G5. BSU has gone to a bowl game every year since 1999. ECU is 9 out of the last 10. BYU is making it ten straight. Since coming to 1A Marshall has been in one 11 our of 18 years. After this year Rice is going to be 5/9 years in a bowl. ASU is about to make it 4 straight. MTSU 5 out of 6. Air Force 7 out of 8.

There is no reason this program can't get to the point where we go to bowl more often than we do. 75% of the time would be a good long range bar.

I know, RIGHT NOW, we don't have the revenue to hire and schedule to make this happen. Raising that money is the AD's job. If they have gotten to the point where they are so beat down that they no longer innovate and just fall back on the same old approach that gets the minimum done, there needs to be new blood brought in.

Just look at what the ASU AD has done. If they can do that in Jonesboro, there is no reason it can't be done in Denton.

You are reading out of the Hayden Fry manual for turning around a program. After Fry arrived at NT and had a chance to look around and assess things, he went about doing everything on your "off the field" list.

He called a community meeting at the largest auditorium in the school of music. He invited EVERYONE; students, faculty, and school staff.....down to the janitors. He then got up on the stage and shared his assessment of the school ('This is a GREAT UNIVERSITY') and then his vision for North Texas athletics. It was not a small vision. He said that ultimately, he wanted NT to be the Notre Dame of the south.

And finally; he asked for input from the crowd and he ASKED FOR EVERYONE'S HELP! Including and especially the faculty.

He then he went out to engage the community. He spoke at every Lions club-like organization or any group in the community that wanted to hear his message. He then sent a caravan of spirit people (band members, cheer leaders, talons) to many of the small communities within 25-30 miles of Denton to set up in their town squares. They would then have an impromptu "spirit event", and then have the cheerleaders go around to all the businesses and ask them to participate in the program, put up posters, and leave season ticket info.

He then acquired a new dodge van, had it painted "mean green" with the new logo on the side, and had information about contacting the athletic department put on it as well. Bill Vogel (promotions dept) drove this van almost all the time he was working, and so even the most innocuous trip to the store, or errand to Dallas/Fort Worth turned into an advertising event.

The problem is that Hayden was a dynamic and confident speaker. Coach Mac is a great speaker. RV is not. But once again, Coach Mac can only do so much because promotions are NOT HIS JOB! As we have been discussing at great length in the last few days, Coach Mac has enough on his plate right now that needs his immediate attention.

We need a dynamic speaker from the athletic department to be going around and engaging the community; North Texas campus, Denton, and local small towns. If they are not currently on staff, someone needs to be found.

UNTDoubleAlum · December 2, 2014

I figure we'll continue to be competitive in sports that almost no one cares about, and good in football and basketball once or twice a decade each.

Pretty much how I feel too. 20 winning seasons in a row for Women's Soccer. Whoopeeeee! I mean, I'm glad for all UNT athletes, but if it's not Football or Men's Basketball, my interest is marginal at best.

CMJ · December 2, 2014

G5 teams that have shown to "reload" by becoming bowl eligible in recent years more often than not.
.
Does Not Include This Season 2014 Unless Noted
Arkansas St. Bowl Eligible 6 of the past 8 years.
Ball St. 5 of the past 7.
Boise...16 of the past 16
Bowling Green.....10 of the past 12
BYU.....38 of the past 42
East Carolina...7 of past 8
Fresno St....13 of the past 15.
Houston...8 of the past 12
La Tech....6 of the past 10 including this year.
Louisville....13 of the past 16
Louisiana Lafeyette...7 of the past 10
Marshall....11 of the past 17
Memphis...6 of the past 11 including this year.
Miami Ohio....13 of the past 19
Middle Tennessee....5 of the past 8
Navy....10 of the past 11
Nevada....9 of the past 11
Ohio....7 of the past 8
Rice...4 of the past 7
Rutgers...8 of the past 9
San Diego St....5 of the past 10
South Florida....10 of the past 13
SMU....5 of the past 8
Southern Miss...18 of the past 20
Troy....8 of the past 10
Tulsa....8 of the past 10
Western Kentucky...4 of the past 7
Western Michigan.....5 of the past 9
That's 28 Non-Mythical programs that don't seem to expect excuses, just positive results.
Rick

Not sure I would not have included Louisville. They joined the big boys about ten years ago when they got in the Big East.

FirefightnRick · December 2, 2014

Not that anybody wants to look, but from 1998-2010, Utah State was a stellar 43-106 (.288). Also, their stadium only seats 25,000, so they clearly got that wrong and have no upside whatsoever.

To the first point, they've really had 2 good years - 2013 and 2014. hardly a sustained "reloading" success story to be exemplified as a great G5 story. That would more accurately describe their basketball program, where since 1998, they've had one head coach, Stew Morrill, lead them to a 384-143 (.729) record with 8 trips to the NCCAs, and 4 trips to the NIT. That's a G5 reloading sustainable success story that we could discuss on the other forum.

.

Well, I didnt list Utah State as a program that "reloads" because they were pretty terrible during most of the Aughts decade, but take a closer look at what they've done since '09 and Id say something has changed up there. They may just need more time?

They seem to have someone who knows what they are doing in hiring footbal coaches. With 1997 being the last 6 win season in 12 years they hired Gary Anderson in 2009 and his team struggled that first year. His second year in 2010 they lost more than they won BUT they took Oklahoma to the wire losing by 7 and beat BYU that year. He then took them to two straight bowl games in '11 and '12, and like all good up and coming talent got hired away to be the head coach at Wisconsin.

So did they hire the next guy to come in and whine and cry about his players being too small, or bitch about their small stadium, or cry how difficult it is having to recruit the majority of his talent from out of state? No, they hired a young up and comer ex letterman from Utah State who was Gary Anderson's OC the year before. They hired Matt Wells, who was more than familiar with the lay of the land in Logan. He took right up where Anderson left off and led them to the the MWC Championship game in 2013, then to only their third bowl win in USU history.

This year..despite having to recruit mostly out of state talent to replace the largest loss of Seniors from the year before in the nation, they've won 9 games including wins over Wake Forest, Air Force and BYU in Provo mind you, and are heading to their fourth bowl game in a row.

So give them time. Someone making the decisions up there apparently knows what the eff they are doing. If they are still enjoying success 3 to 5 years from now I'd easily add them to the list.

Rick

Edited December 2, 2014 by FirefightnRick

untjim1995 · December 2, 2014

You are reading out of the Hayden Fry manual for turning around a program. After Fry arrived at NT and had a chance to look around and assess things, he went about doing everything on your "off the field" list.

He called a community meeting at the largest auditorium in the school of music. He invited EVERYONE; students, faculty, and school staff.....down to the janitors. He then got up on the stage and shared his assessment of the school ('This is a GREAT UNIVERSITY') and then his vision for North Texas athletics. It was not a small vision. He said that ultimately, he wanted NT to be the Notre Dame of the south.

And finally; he asked for input from the crowd and he ASKED FOR EVERYONE'S HELP! Including and especially the faculty.

He then he went out to engage the community. He spoke at every Lions club-like organization or any group in the community that wanted to hear his message. He then sent a caravan of spirit people (band members, cheer leaders, talons) to many of the small communities within 25-30 miles of Denton to set up in their town squares. They would then have an impromptu "spirit event", and then have the cheerleaders go around to all the businesses and ask them to participate in the program, put up posters, and leave season ticket info.

He then acquired a new dodge van, had it painted "mean green" with the new logo on the side, and had information about contacting the athletic department put on it as well. Bill Vogel (promotions dept) drove this van almost all the time he was working, and so even the most innocuous trip to the store, or errand to Dallas/Fort Worth turned into an advertising event.

The problem is that Hayden was a dynamic and confident speaker. Coach Mac is a great speaker. RV is not. But once again, Coach Mac can only do so much because promotions are NOT HIS JOB! As we have been discussing at great length in the last few days, Coach Mac has enough on his plate right now that needs his immediate attention.

We need a dynamic speaker from the athletic department to be going around and engaging the community; North Texas campus, Denton, and local small towns. If they are not currently on staff, someone needs to be found.

I love the Hayden Fry stories when he was here, especially the efforts he put in to get people interested. BUt the problem was that he still couldn't get people to come out and watch the team play, even when they were really good and got ranked.

This town and this university don't care about UNT sports--they never have and they never will. I was looking at the list of G5 schools that FFR posted earlier in this thread--every single one of them puts revenue athletics as the top window to the university to connect to their alumni, students, faculty, local fans, and future students and fans. A school like Utah State, who was moribund in football, still figures out a way to get into the MWC. Now, they play people their fans care about and that recruits want to play at and they are good now. They have placed an emphasis on Stew Morrill's hoops program, which has paid off dearly for them over the years. What they didn't do was place an emphasis on music or arts to be THE window to the university--just like every other school on that list. We don't--never have, never will.

Maybe our school's tact is the right move--training future educators, musicians, and artists have significant value to society. Sophistication is often thought of with those three endeavors. It isn't with football or basketball--both are thought of raw, unsophisticated, even appalling to many folks. A school of higher education is supposed to focus on the quality of the academics and well-roundedness of its students learning options--maybe UNT and Denton have it figured out and we are just wrong on this board for thinking college football and college basketball should matter more than what the UNT Leaders and the citizenry of Denton believe. Its just hard when you grow up in Texas, where football is king of all outside activities (not just sports, but everything), and every other college around you thinks that the sport is the best way to show pride in your school. My favorite putdown, of the many I ever heard from co-workers and buddies, about UNT has always been, "Man, if we had to play yall in a marching band competition or in an art exhibit, yall would kick our ass!!"

It is so easy to see why UNT students and alums who care about college sports love Texas, A&M, OU, Tech, Baylor, TCU, SMU, etc...as their "team". We don't even try to act like sports matter here beyond the bare minimum. Always has been this way, always will be this way. Dan McCarney cannot change this, nor can Tony Benford, nor RV, nor can any of us on gmg.com. Unless you get a BOR and Chancellor and President who think that athletics should trump everything else outside of academics here, you won't see any changes. The town doesn't want it, the faculty doesn't want it, and a large majority of students and alumni don't want it. To me, the only way you have any chance at changing this thought (culture) is to win something huge. The HoD Bowl was very nice, but it was still small compared to what I am talking about. Its winning a conference championship and getting into a New Years Day Bowl and winning it, while the P5s still allow it. Or winning a playoff system when the G5s and FCS are forced to combine into their own division. Or, even more possible with the right coach in hoops (which isn't Benford, even if he gets an extension soon), a deep run in the NCAA tournament. Maybe that isn't even enough to overcome this thought that athletics should never trump music and arts as THE window to the university, but its the one thing we have never done here to see if it would work. All I know is that there are a lot of the local citizenry, students, faculty, and administration who wish that their areas of academia had received some portion of the $78 million that got put into Apogee--eventually that bitterness is going to come home to roost on the BOR and Chancellor who allowed it to happen on their watch, and those voices are gonna make damn sure that nothing like that will ever get approved again by the folks who are future BOR and administrators here.

NT80 · December 2, 2014

I love the Hayden Fry stories when he was here, especially the efforts he put in to get people interested. BUt the problem was that he still couldn't get people to come out and watch the team play, even when they were really good and got ranked.

This town and this university don't care about UNT sports--they never have and they never will. I was looking at the list of G5 schools that FFR posted earlier in this thread--every single one of them puts revenue athletics as the top window to the university to connect to their alumni, students, faculty, local fans, and future students and fans. A school like Utah State, who was moribund in football, still figures out a way to get into the MWC. Now, they play people their fans care about and that recruits want to play at and they are good now. They have placed an emphasis on Stew Morrill's hoops program, which has paid off dearly for them over the years. What they didn't do was place an emphasis on music or arts to be THE window to the university--just like every other school on that list. We don't--never have, never will.

Maybe our school's tact is the right move--training future educators, musicians, and artists have significant value to society. Sophistication is often thought of with those three endeavors. It isn't with football or basketball--both are thought of raw, unsophisticated, even appalling to many folks. A school of higher education is supposed to focus on the quality of the academics and well-roundedness of its students learning options--maybe UNT and Denton have it figured out and we are just wrong on this board for thinking college football and college basketball should matter more than what the UNT Leaders and the citizenry of Denton believe. Its just hard when you grow up in Texas, where football is king of all outside activities (not just sports, but everything), and every other college around you thinks that the sport is the best way to show pride in your school. My favorite putdown, of the many I ever heard from co-workers and buddies, about UNT has always been, "Man, if we had to play yall in a marching band competition or in an art exhibit, yall would kick our ass!!"

It is so easy to see why UNT students and alums who care about college sports love Texas, A&M, OU, Tech, Baylor, TCU, SMU, etc...as their "team". We don't even try to act like sports matter here beyond the bare minimum. Always has been this way, always will be this way. Dan McCarney cannot change this, nor can Tony Benford, nor RV, nor can any of us on gmg.com. Unless you get a BOR and Chancellor and President who think that athletics should trump everything else outside of academics here, you won't see any changes. The town doesn't want it, the faculty doesn't want it, and a large majority of students and alumni don't want it. To me, the only way you have any chance at changing this thought (culture) is to win something huge. The HoD Bowl was very nice, but it was still small compared to what I am talking about. Its winning a conference championship and getting into a New Years Day Bowl and winning it, while the P5s still allow it. Or winning a playoff system when the G5s and FCS are forced to combine into their own division. Or, even more possible with the right coach in hoops (which isn't Benford, even if he gets an extension soon), a deep run in the NCAA tournament. Maybe that isn't even enough to overcome this thought that athletics should never trump music and arts as THE window to the university, but its the one thing we have never done here to see if it would work. All I know is that there are a lot of the local citizenry, students, faculty, and administration who wish that their areas of academia had received some portion of the $78 million that got put into Apogee--eventually that bitterness is going to come home to roost on the BOR and Chancellor who allowed it to happen on their watch, and those voices are gonna make damn sure that nothing like that will ever get approved again by the folks who are future BOR and administrators here.

Excellent post.

There does need to be new blood (energy and ideas) within the AD staff. Look at the tenure of those jobs, nobody in FBS athletics stays the same place that long. Autopilot isn't working.

Denton is still asleep as to what UNT has in Athletics. Those that really care outside Denton are not coming up as often either.

Portland State and Southern Arkansas are not what will get fans motivated. We've got better things to do with our money and time.

2012gradUNT · December 2, 2014

For our current situation to change, the attitude must change in every area of the college. I am glad that they care so much for academics but that shouldn't stop you from being a good/great football program at all. You go around town and no one really even cares that a game is being played. Its rare to even find it on a tv set (if it is being played on one). Our football stadium is amazing but we dont capitalize on that fact.

If you look around the country you see people that have far less than we do and they do far more with it. I am baffled every time I come back home to go to a game that we cannot win consistently here. Lets look at some of the teams that win: Boise, its in Idaho....IDAHO and they win, Utah St.....UTAH and they have won in the past years, NDSU....smaller school but still its in North Dakota....Arizona St.....I dont even think I need to say it. You cannot tell me these places have things that make them better than Denton, Texas.

MeanGreen13 · December 2, 2014

You are reading out of the Hayden Fry manual for turning around a program. After Fry arrived at NT and had a chance to look around and assess things, he went about doing everything on your "off the field" list.

He called a community meeting at the largest auditorium in the school of music. He invited EVERYONE; students, faculty, and school staff.....down to the janitors. He then got up on the stage and shared his assessment of the school ('This is a GREAT UNIVERSITY') and then his vision for North Texas athletics. It was not a small vision. He said that ultimately, he wanted NT to be the Notre Dame of the south.

And finally; he asked for input from the crowd and he ASKED FOR EVERYONE'S HELP! Including and especially the faculty.

He then he went out to engage the community. He spoke at every Lions club-like organization or any group in the community that wanted to hear his message. He then sent a caravan of spirit people (band members, cheer leaders, talons) to many of the small communities within 25-30 miles of Denton to set up in their town squares. They would then have an impromptu "spirit event", and then have the cheerleaders go around to all the businesses and ask them to participate in the program, put up posters, and leave season ticket info.

He then acquired a new dodge van, had it painted "mean green" with the new logo on the side, and had information about contacting the athletic department put on it as well. Bill Vogel (promotions dept) drove this van almost all the time he was working, and so even the most innocuous trip to the store, or errand to Dallas/Fort Worth turned into an advertising event.

The problem is that Hayden was a dynamic and confident speaker. Coach Mac is a great speaker. RV is not. But once again, Coach Mac can only do so much because promotions are NOT HIS JOB! As we have been discussing at great length in the last few days, Coach Mac has enough on his plate right now that needs his immediate attention.

We need a dynamic speaker from the athletic department to be going around and engaging the community; North Texas campus, Denton, and local small towns. If they are not currently on staff, someone needs to be found.

I think that was the best pitch for an assistant AD job I've seen on here. Seriously, you should send in a resume because if you do the things on this list, you would already be head and shoulders above our current guys...

Greendylan · December 2, 2014

I think it's time to finally dispel the myth that attendance is preventing North Texas from achieving anything of note on the football field. Here's the list of teams that at some point were ranked in the last five years while playing in a non-auto bid/G5 conference: Northern Illinois, Utah State, Boise State, Tulsa, TCU, Houston, Southern Miss, Nevada, Utah, UCF, Air Force, Hawaii, Louisiana Tech, Ohio, Toledo, Kent State, Fresno State, BYU, East Carolina, Marshall, and Colorado State.

Now, if you compare attendance averages for the most recently completed season (2013) and remove TCU, Utah, and BYU--as they no longer played in a mid-major conference in 2013, here's what you get:

1. East Carolina 43,985

2. UCF 42,084

3. Fresno State 36,917

4. Boise State 34,366

5. Air Force 32,652

6. Hawaii 30,989

7. Marshall 25,023

8. Nevada 24,939

9. Houston 24,256

10. Utah State 23,263

11. Southern Miss 22,752

12. Ohio 20,672

13. Northern Illinois 20,669

14. Tulsa 19,893

15. Louisiana Tech 18,666

16. Colorado State 18,600

17. Toledo 18,467

18. Kent State 17,018

19. San Jose State 16,362

For that same season, North Texas averaged 21,030 and would have been 12 out of 20, even though we haven't been ranked in about 40 years. The first six on this list are doing a significantly better job than North Texas, but we're essentially right there in the middle of the pack among the other 2/3 on that list--and some of those have been regulars in the rankings throughout the last decade.

I know it's become a chicken vs. egg debate in the world of college athletics, but I fail to see, statistically speaking, how the lack of 30,000+ attendance averages is somehow hampering our team on the field. In fact, other than a few outliers, most successful mid-major programs are pulling in fans about as well as we are.

Now, consider the fact that most of us have NEVER seen the Mean Green accomplish any of the following:

-achieve a ranking

-beat a ranked team

-participate in a major bowl

-pull off an upset in a "money game"

If you take into account that none of the above has happened since the Carter administration, it's a minor miracle that our attendance isn't far worse than it is. Performance on the field is determined by scheduling, coaching, and recruiting. Whether or not we're able to cajole a few thousand extra casual college football fans into finally wandering into Apogee some sunny day will not instantly transform us into a winning program. Sure, it might temporarily boost the egos of our players and make them hit extra hard for a play or two, but it won't make a ridiculously undersized D-line suddenly able to pancake O-lineman who are 100 pounds heavier.

Of course, attendance does help with recruiting, but it's only one of several factors. If we don't improve upon the other areas of our recruiting pitch, attendance won't make a noticeable difference. I mean, even if we magically started averaging 28,000 (which would mean nearly selling out most games), would that additional 7,000 really change the dynamic of recruiting for us? Would Desmon White, for example, have maintained his commitment to North Texas and not been flipped to TCU? Maybe, but I doubt it. I tend to think the fact that we NEVER, EVER make a splash on the national stage--NEVER ranked, NEVER upset anyone in a headline-grabbing fashion, NEVER beat the premier programs (UT, A&M) in our own state--weighs far more in a recruit's decision-making.

It's time to recognize that somehow our peers are able to play the same hand and, at least on occasion, achieve spectacular results. We NEVER do, and it's ridiculous to blame our absentee alumni and the hole they create in our attendance.

emmitt01 · December 2, 2014

I think that was the best pitch for an assistant AD job I've seen on here. Seriously, you should send in a resume because if you do anything above send mass email and collect a paycheck you would already be head and shoulders above our current guys...

FIFY

Ben Gooding · December 3, 2014

I think it's time to finally dispel the myth that attendance is preventing North Texas from achieving anything of note on the football field. Here's the list of teams that at some point were ranked in the last five years while playing in a non-auto bid/G5 conference: Northern Illinois, Utah State, Boise State, Tulsa, TCU, Houston, Southern Miss, Nevada, Utah, UCF, Air Force, Hawaii, Louisiana Tech, Ohio, Toledo, Kent State, Fresno State, BYU, East Carolina, Marshall, and Colorado State.

Now, if you compare attendance averages for the most recently completed season (2013) and remove TCU, Utah, and BYU--as they no longer played in a mid-major conference in 2013, here's what you get:

1. East Carolina 43,985
2. UCF 42,084
3. Fresno State 36,917
4. Boise State 34,366
5. Air Force 32,652
6. Hawaii 30,989
7. Marshall 25,023
8. Nevada 24,939
9. Houston 24,256
10. Utah State 23,263
11. Southern Miss 22,752
12. Ohio 20,672
13. Northern Illinois 20,669
14. Tulsa 19,893
15. Louisiana Tech 18,666
16. Colorado State 18,600
17. Toledo 18,467
18. Kent State 17,018
19. San Jose State 16,362

For that same season, North Texas averaged 21,030 and would have been 12 out of 20, even though we haven't been ranked in about 40 years. The first six on this list are doing a significantly better job than North Texas, but we're essentially right there in the middle of the pack among the other 2/3 on that list--and some of those have been regulars in the rankings throughout the last decade.

I know it's become a chicken vs. egg debate in the world of college athletics, but I fail to see, statistically speaking, how the lack of 30,000+ attendance averages is somehow hampering our team on the field. In fact, other than a few outliers, most successful mid-major programs are pulling in fans about as well as we are.

Now, consider the fact that most of us have NEVER seen the Mean Green accomplish any of the following:

-achieve a ranking
-beat a ranked team
-participate in a major bowl
-pull off an upset in a "money game"

If you take into account that none of the above has happened since the Carter administration, it's a minor miracle that our attendance isn't far worse than it is. Performance on the field is determined by scheduling, coaching, and recruiting. Whether or not we're able to cajole a few thousand extra casual college football fans into finally wandering into Apogee some sunny day will not instantly transform us into a winning program. Sure, it might temporarily boost the egos of our players and make them hit extra hard for a play or two, but it won't make a ridiculously undersized D-line suddenly able to pancake O-lineman who are 100 pounds heavier.

Of course, attendance does help with recruiting, but it's only one of several factors. If we don't improve upon the other areas of our recruiting pitch, attendance won't make a noticeable difference. I mean, even if we magically started averaging 28,000 (which would mean nearly selling out most games), would that additional 7,000 really change the dynamic of recruiting for us? Would Desmon White, for example, have maintained his commitment to North Texas and not been flipped to TCU? Maybe, but I doubt it. I tend to think the fact that we NEVER, EVER make a splash on the national stage--NEVER ranked, NEVER upset anyone in a headline-grabbing fashion, NEVER beat the premier programs (UT, A&M) in our own state--weighs far more in a recruit's decision-making.

It's time to recognize that somehow our peers are able to play the same hand and, at least on occasion, achieve spectacular results. We NEVER do, and it's ridiculous to blame our absentee alumni and the hole they create in our attendance.

Good post. I do think that attendance matters. Butts in the seats puts a jolt into the team. People play better when they know people are watching, they just do. I've watched countless times (more so in hoops) fans take over the game and will their team to victories. Also, having a loud 28k in a stadium that holds a hair under 31 would be impressive recruits, even the ones who have had P5 offers/visits. The bottom line is that if we get a lively following on game day our atmosphere will outperform about 20+ P5's, a lot of the same P5's that sign kids we should have been recruiting...Illinois, NW, Purdue, Wake Forest, Ga Tech, Kansas, IA St, etc. etc. etc. Coincidentally, these are the same P5's our AD should be scratching and clawing to get a home and home with.

shaft · December 3, 2014

Not sure I would not have included Louisville. They joined the big boys about ten years ago when they got in the Big East.

I wouldn't have included 2/3rds of the list.

There's a pretty big difference between 4/5 (80%) and 2/3 (66%) which a lot of that list was.

2 out of 3 years is doable and should be our goal. My expectations are 1 out 3 years because it's realustic and achievable.

But as much fun as debating statistics with is, the question remains ...

What are your expectations for the program?

Ben Gooding · December 3, 2014

I wouldn't have included 2/3rds of the list.
There's a pretty big difference between 4/5 (80%) and 2/3 (66%) which a lot of that list was.
2 out of 3 years is doable and should be our goal. My expectations are 1 out 3 years because it's realustic and achievable.
But as much fun as debating statistics with is, the question remains ...
What are your expectations for the program?

Wait, wait, wait...

You want to go 6-6 one third of the time? So you want to have 6 wins 3 out of every 10 years? My oh my.

FirefightnRick · December 3, 2014

Not sure I would not have included Louisville. They joined the big boys about ten years ago when they got in the Big East.

The 7 years prior to their 6 years in the Big East they were Bowl Eligible in C-USA. And in the two years since leaving the Big East for the American they are Bowl Eligible. So of the last 10 years as a member of a non-power 5 conference dating back to 1998 they have "reloaded" to Bowl Eligibility in all 10 years. 10 of the past 16 years is pretty stout without P5 help.

Rick

Edited December 3, 2014 by FirefightnRick

NT03 · December 3, 2014

Nothing

ColoradoEagle · December 3, 2014

I expect to be in the hunt for CUSA championships in every sport. Even if we don't make it to the championship game, like last year, we were still in it right until the end. I also expect to find a marketing department who knows how to market.

Everything else will take care of itself.

DeepGreen · December 3, 2014

Sadly, we talked about this same crap 10 years ago.

NT03 · December 3, 2014

.
.
Well, I didnt list Utah State as a program that "reloads" because they were pretty terrible during most of the Aughts decade, but take a closer look at what they've done since '09 and Id say something has changed up there. They may just need more time?
They seem to have someone who knows what they are doing in hiring footbal coaches.
Rick

They hired a new AD in the summer of 2008

casual fan · December 3, 2014

The question is: "What do you expect from this program?"

If you mean expect in terms of goals, it would be go to a bowl 9 times out of 10.

If you mean expect in terms of what do I suppose will happen, well that's a whole different can of worms.

Christopher Walker · December 3, 2014

YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH THE FLOOR AT COSMIC BOUNCE!
But, every Saturday... I sit there at a table by myself all day, staring at a door you never walk through... Stifling my tears and eating yet another cookie cake with your name on it.
Alone.

https://soundcloud.com/david_rees/aphex-swift-you-belong-with-avril

Edited December 3, 2014 by Christopher Walker