We can't stand still

oldguystudent · December 1, 2014

I have said for years that you can throw educational money at any academically poor performing community, but that doesn't really change the core issue. And that "core issue" is that people have to care about their children's education before upgraded facilities can make a real impact. How do you get educationally unmotivated parents to care about their children's education?

The same question applies to our student/alumni base of over (by some estimates) over 200K?

You picked up on my parallel perfectly. That is exactly the point I was making, and I 100% agree with you on the core issue of education thing.

DeepGreen · December 1, 2014

And it's a crying shame that our leaders have this attitude towards FBS foorball, or any sport for that matter. The fans are out there too. Evidence? Look at the last years Heart of Dallas Bowl game. 35,000+ UNT fans attended. Could you imagine what would happen if a steady diet of winning would do to our athletic programs? But I'm afraid you are correct. This is not what our mission is at UNT.

aztecskin · December 1, 2014

Although I agree with the main thrust of this thread: that we need some actual caring about the product from people who have more power before we'll see real change here, I don't see how that applies to this year.

It was a bad year. The defense and offense underperformed. The quarterback situation --all Danny Mac's guys -- is awful.

Sure, Darrell Dickey did a lot with less. He also didn't play well with the administration and donors (apparently). That's a big part of the job and a large reason why guys like Mack Brown had such longevity with a weak record compared to his peers.

Sure Todd Dodge pulled in more all-conference guys than Danny Mac has, he also didn't produce a winning season or anything close to it aside from that one year where they had 5 heartbreaking losses. That was the peak of his tenure. Ultimately, you are judged on wins. Though it seems in retrospect Dodge is grading out okay.

Sure Danny Mac won with Todd's guys. Glad someone did. Because Todd didn't. As I said on the podcast, he obviously can run a D1 program. Can he win a consistently successful D1 program?

As far as cutting corners and cheating to win being our other option? Nope. We shouldn't be aiming to compete with Texas right now. We need to first compete with Rice. They are going to their third straight bowl game. That seems reasonable. Danny Mac deserves the criticism he is getting for this season. It is on him. He recruited the underperforming guys. He chose the coaches that are producing terrible pass and mediocre offenses.

If two years from now we are in a similar situation, *then* I'd like to see the powers-that-be to hold people accountable. That includes RV.

SilverEagle · December 1, 2014

Although I agree with the main thrust of this thread: that we need some actual caring about the product from people who have more power before we'll see real change here, I don't see how that applies to this year.

It was a bad year. The defense and offense underperformed. The quarterback situation --all Danny Mac's guys -- is awful.

Sure, Darrell Dickey did a lot with less. He also didn't play well with the administration and donors (apparently). That's a big part of the job and a large reason why guys like Mack Brown had such longevity with a weak record compared to his peers.

Sure Todd Dodge pulled in more all-conference guys than Danny Mac has, he also didn't produce a winning season or anything close to it aside from that one year where they had 5 heartbreaking losses. That was the peak of his tenure. Ultimately, you are judged on wins. Though it seems in retrospect Dodge is grading out okay.

Sure Danny Mac won with Todd's guys. Glad someone did. Because Todd didn't. As I said on the podcast, he obviously can run a D1 program. Can he win a consistently successful D1 program?

As far as cutting corners and cheating to win being our other option? Nope. We shouldn't be aiming to compete with Texas right now. We need to first compete with Rice. They are going to their third straight bowl game. That seems reasonable. Danny Mac deserves the criticism he is getting for this season. It is on him. He recruited the underperforming guys. He chose the coaches that are producing terrible pass and mediocre offenses.

If two years from now we are in a similar situation, *then* I'd like to see the powers-that-be to hold people accountable. That includes RV.

Coach Mac has been here four years already. Two more will make it 6. So, how many jobs have you held where your boss(s) didn't hold you accountable until 6 years after you were hired?

I worked for a state bureaucracy for 33 years, and except for a few months here and there because of supervisors coming and going, I was reviewed monthly by my supervisor. At the beginning of each conference the previous goals were reviewed and a status report was given. At the end of the conference the goals/tasks were updated and time framed.....and this happened monthly. Every year (no exceptions were allowed) an overall performance evaluation was done and sent up to upper level bosses and HR.

Who does the same thing for RV's performance on his job? And how often?

Greendylan · December 1, 2014

Coach Mac has been here four years already. Two more will make it 6. So, how many jobs have you held where your boss(s) didn't hold you accountable until 6 years after you were hired?

I worked for a state bureaucracy for 33 years, and except for a few months here and there because of supervisors coming and going, I was reviewed monthly by my supervisor. At the beginning of each conference the previous goals were reviewed and a status report was given. At the end of the conference the goals/tasks were updated and time framed.....and this happened monthly. Every year (no exceptions were allowed) an overall performance evaluation was done and sent up to upper level bosses and HR.

Who does the same thing for RV's performance on his job? And how often?

I agree that we need more accountability. In fact, I think it's becoming increasingly obvious (in multiple sports) that the standards for success here are woefully minimal--to the extent that sometimes I question whether win/losses is even a significant criteria point in performance reviews of coaches.

Having said that, I do think we need to resist viewing this season in isolation. If we are to evaluate McCarney's job performance based on immediate success, then don't we have to consider his results in relation to his immediate predecessors? In all four years of McCarney's tenure, he has won at least four games, which is a feat (albeit not an earth-shattering one) that neither of the two previous head coaches had accomplished since 2004. We had six years of 1-3 wins and then immediately 5,4,9,4 wins. In many industries, that type of improvement would be considered a smashing success. You also have to award credit for reaching and winning the most important bowl game that the program has seen in many years (some could argue decades).

I don't see how you can realistically fault McCarney for years 1 and 2. He cobbled together out of the ashes of the Dodge disaster respectable seasons. We weren't exactly good, but I think you would have to say that his performance was at least passable after taking over for one of the worst college football coaches in the history of the game. Year three was a success. Year four was a failure--but it was a failure that many preseason publications predicted based upon the loss of nearly all our playmakers who had made the previous year a success. We told ourselves the foolish lie that our four returning O-linemen would somehow make up for a zillion other key losses, and we should have known better.

That brings us to year five. That will be the season to determine the McCarney legacy at North Texas. Either he proves that 2014 was indeed a rebuilding year and an aberration on the way to sustained success or he reaches his fourth losing season in five tries, which in my opinion would constitute a resounding failure.

Ben Gooding · December 2, 2014

So 20% success rate is where you draw the line, but 40% seems honorable? And what is a success for 2015, 6-6? I can never hold my head high at the notion of losing the same amount as we lose. Next year should be 7-5 or bust. With IA and TN paired with probable competent East Div teams 7-5 is going to be a freaking miracle. In year 5 we should not be calling 7-5 a miracle.

The issue I am having with all this hypothetical talk is that there is literally no reason to believe that we will reach even bowl eligibility. If there was hope then I could pick up what you're laying down, but at this point it's difficult.

UNT90 · December 2, 2014

I can never hold my head high at the notion of losing the same amount as we lose.

See, young Ben Gooding, you are finally getting the hang of being a UNT fan.

Edited December 2, 2014 by UNT90

Harry · December 2, 2014

See, young Ben Gooding, you are finally getting the hang of being a UNT fan.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · December 2, 2014

See, young Ben Gooding, you are finally getting the hang of being a UNT fan.

Touching moment between father and son.

Ben Gooding · December 2, 2014

Wth.

UNT90 · December 2, 2014

You are gonna be the first in line when the new one comes out.

We know. Admit it.

untbowler · December 2, 2014

WE can't stand still but DMac all but said we are going to keep steering the ship on the same course.

2-10 season coming next year, with one win being Portland State.

aztecskin · December 2, 2014

I think Greendylan answered this best for me but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

First this is great.

Second, reviewing college football coaches monthly wouldn't make sense for the job. Every job has it's performance cycles. In Mac's case that is seasonally, perhaps annually. It makes no sense to review him monthly given the nature of his gig. In this particular annual review I'd rate him as Below Expectations. Last year I'd rate him as Sig Above. The years before that, Consistent With, and Above.

It isn't just wins and losses, either. It is the way we win or lose. That matters. Sure, this isn't Texas and we don't spend a fortune on athletics, marketing, coaches, recruiting, and outreach. But does that mean you allow 44 a game on the road? Does that mean your QBs look like they picked up the game over the summer? Does that mean you have the worst offense in the last six year?

But

Similarly, you have to put it all in context. And wins and losses aren't the only thing the guy is judged on. He is great with boosters, and fans, and the media. That goes a long way. He also got to a bowl game and was one game away from playing in the CUSA title game. That's impressive relative to our history. I say judge him fully in two more years because that would mean 4 whole years of his coaches, his players, his legacy.

RV is probably on a different timeline. He gets judged on the bball team too. That would be more damning if that was the revenue-program here. It isn't.

Coach Mac has been here four years already. Two more will make it 6. So, how many jobs have you held where your boss(s) didn't hold you accountable until 6 years after you were hired?

I worked for a state bureaucracy for 33 years, and except for a few months here and there because of supervisors coming and going, I was reviewed monthly by my supervisor. At the beginning of each conference the previous goals were reviewed and a status report was given. At the end of the conference the goals/tasks were updated and time framed.....and this happened monthly. Every year (no exceptions were allowed) an overall performance evaluation was done and sent up to upper level bosses and HR.

Who does the same thing for RV's performance on his job? And how often?

I agree that we need more accountability. In fact, I think it's becoming increasingly obvious (in multiple sports) that the standards for success here are woefully minimal--to the extent that sometimes I question whether win/losses is even a significant criteria point in performance reviews of coaches.

Having said that, I do think we need to resist viewing this season in isolation. If we are to evaluate McCarney's job performance based on immediate success, then don't we have to consider his results in relation to his immediate predecessors? In all four years of McCarney's tenure, he has won at least four games, which is a feat (albeit not an earth-shattering one) that neither of the two previous head coaches had accomplished since 2004. We had six years of 1-3 wins and then immediately 5,4,9,4 wins. In many industries, that type of improvement would be considered a smashing success. You also have to award credit for reaching and winning the most important bowl game that the program has seen in many years (some could argue decades).

I don't see how you can realistically fault McCarney for years 1 and 2. He cobbled together out of the ashes of the Dodge disaster respectable seasons. We weren't exactly good, but I think you would have to say that his performance was at least passable after taking over for one of the worst college football coaches in the history of the game. Year three was a success. Year four was a failure--but it was a failure that many preseason publications predicted based upon the loss of nearly all our playmakers who had made the previous year a success. We told ourselves the foolish lie that our four returning O-linemen would somehow make up for a zillion other key losses, and we should have known better.

That brings us to year five. That will be the season to determine the McCarney legacy at North Texas. Either he proves that 2014 was indeed a rebuilding year and an aberration on the way to sustained success or he reaches his fourth losing season in five tries, which in my opinion would constitute a resounding failure.

untbowler · December 2, 2014

Similarly, you have to put it all in context. And wins and losses aren't the only thing the guy is judged on. He is great with boosters, and fans, and the media. That goes a long way. He also got to a bowl game and was one game away from playing in the CUSA title game. That's impressive relative to our history. I say judge him fully in two more years because that would mean 4 whole years of his coaches, his players, his legacy.

Then why is the stadium not selling out if he is great with fans, why is there not a huge rush to get into MGC.

DMac maybe a nice guy but his ego and stubborness is running fans off and that he admits he is not going to change anything is terrifying.

NT80 · December 2, 2014

WE can't stand still but DMac all but said we are going to keep steering the ship on the same course.

2-10 season coming next year, with one win being Portland State.

This.

You can't spell TITANIC without NT.

They will also be changing the name next season to Apology Stadium. :sleeping:

aztecskin · December 2, 2014

I think Mac is great with fans. The Why Not NT speech was great. He's a great motivator. He's done a lot to get people in the stands. The bowl game and wins last year were great. The losses hurt attendance sure. But wins will always bring more to the stadium than losses.

The MGC thing, the advertising, and all that is on the AD. There are numerous threads on why/how/ this is the case. I think Cerebus just did one.

As I get further into my alumni-dom I see what the old (fogies) have been complaining about. Here in SA the alumni outreach was started and then died thanks to some weirdness in Denton (or so I hear). I met a guy at my tailgate that graduated in 2002. He said he never gets anything UNT related through email, regular mail, nothing.

I don't think Danny Mac has email blast responsibilities. So I wont blame him for that. The guy did mention he saw us in the H of Dallas Bowl on TV. I think Danny Mac had a hand in that.

Then why is the stadium not selling out if he is great with fans, why is there not a huge rush to get into MGC.

DMac maybe a nice guy but his ego and stubborness is running fans off and that he admits he is not going to change anything is terrifying.