Recruiting QBs for a conservative offense? Mac’s take

[Harry]

One of the questions that has come up over and over the last couple of years when it comes to UNT is if using a conservative offense makes it tougher to recruit quarterbacks.

Systems come and go. These days the spread is all the rage in Texas high school football. Most high school teams chunk it early and often these days.

UNT runs a different system entirely, one based largely on a power running game.

It really doesn’t matter how a team goes about putting the ball in the end zone as long as it gets there. The topic didn’t come up all that often last season when Derek Thompson threw for 2,896 yards. In a side note, people are misrepresenting Thompson’s completion percentage in conference play last year. It was 61.5 percent, better than Marshall’s Rakeem Cato (59.7 percent), Rice’s Taylor McHargue (50.3) and UTSA’s Eric Soza (61.1), who were widely considered to be the top quarterbacks in the league.

Read more: http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/2014/11/is-it-hard-to-recruit-qbs-for-a-conservative-offense-macs-take.html/

[UNT90]

Shhh Brett. People really need to protect their "we don't miss DT" agenda.

[Ben Gooding]

I thought this was going to be informational. I should have known what this was ultimately about, DT.

[NT93]

It really doesn’t matter how a team goes about putting the ball in the end zone as long as it gets there.

Not true.

If your QB isn't filling up the stat sheet the wins really don't matter. And I know this to be a fact because I saw it on the internet... gomeangreen.com to be exact.

[Got5onIt]

Shhh Brett. People really need to protect their "we don't miss DT" agenda.

LOL. You've been hit for a -6 so far.

Anyone know what the record for minuses is for one post at GMG.com?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Got5onIt

[SilverEagle]

McCarney believes UNT is in a good position to grab top prospects, despite being a little old school offensively.

It's been four years and a bowl win. What is magically going to happen in a (at best) 6-6 year to "grab" top prospects that hasn't happened already?

[UNT90]

LOL. You've been hit for a -6 so far.

Anyone know what the record for minuses is for one post at GMG.com?

I don't even see them, and don't pay attention to them the few times I'm on here and not on the mobile app.

Translation? I could give 2 craps about those stupid things.

Try to have some confidence in your own opinions.

[GTWT]

Darn. I finally give '90 a +1 & now I find out that he doesn't give 2 craps.

[Got5onIt]

I don't even see them, and don't pay attention to them the few times I'm on here and not on the mobile app.

Translation? I could give 2 craps about those stupid things.

Try to have some confidence in your own opinions.

I'm usually on the mobile site as well, which doesn't even show the votes. But every so often I log into the desktop version and see all the pluses/minuses...

[untjim1995]

One of the questions that has come up over and over the last couple of years when it comes to UNT is if using a conservative offense makes it tougher to recruit quarterbacks.

Systems come and go. These days the spread is all the rage in Texas high school football. Most high school teams chunk it early and often these days.

UNT runs a different system entirely, one based largely on a power running game.

It really doesn’t matter how a team goes about putting the ball in the end zone as long as it gets there. The topic didn’t come up all that often last season when Derek Thompson threw for 2,896 yards. In a side note, people are misrepresenting Thompson’s completion percentage in conference play last year. It was 61.5 percent, better than Marshall’s Rakeem Cato (59.7 percent), Rice’s Taylor McHargue (50.3) and UTSA’s Eric Soza (61.1), who were widely considered to be the top quarterbacks in the league.

Read more: http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/2014/11/is-it-hard-to-recruit-qbs-for-a-conservative-offense-macs-take.html/

I like MAc a lot--and I don't fault him for following his gut with the offensive gameplan he believes in. But what else is he going to say when asked this question? Its not like he's gonna say, "Well, our old school offense really doesn't appeal at all to any decent passing QB in this state, which is too bad, since 95% of them play in a spread offense."

I think we have 3+ season to show that QB bus drivers are the best this offense is ever going to attract, especially now that Dajon Williams has been removed from being the starter because he couldn't drive the bus well enough. Derke Thompson and Andrew McNulty are going to be the QBs that we will have here under Mac. He wants kids who buy into his entire philosophy and won't kill them with several stupid mistakes per game. He is fine with limited capability at that position if it means we don't turn the ball over a lot and have a power running game. It is a new Buick, driven by a more upbeat and PR-savvy head coach than the old model we traded in back in 2006. McNulty will start here next year, mark my words. He will be the next "Derek Thompson", a solid-SR QB that will show great character and leadership. What that really means is that if we have an OLine that can develop into something next year and the RBs are solid, we have the chance to have a 2013-like season again. If not, it will look a lot like 2014 again...

Edited November 10, 2014 by untjim1995

[oldguystudent]

The issue of whether this affects UNT quarterback recruiting pushed aside, I really can't wait for that glorious day when the spread offense falls from fashion. It really does look like nothing more than sixth grade recess two hand touch everybody go long and hope for the best to me.

[FirefightnRick]

I don't even see them, and don't pay attention to them the few times I'm on here and not on the mobile app.

Translation? I could give 2 craps about those stupid things.

Try to have some confidence in your own opinions.

Me neither. Don't see them.

Thank you Brett for trying to educate some ...........folks here.

By the way, there's another HS kid playing close by that fits our QB mold, is big(6'3 or 6'4"), tough as hell and will tuck it and run over people, has a rocket of an arm and can lay a nice touch on the fades and most of all isnt getting a lot of attention for some reason and that's Jesse Drummond at Justin Northwest High School. So far we've got a committ from his bad ass reciever Emanuel Moore. Y'all are REALLY gonna love that kid BTW. But Jesse can throw the rock and seems smart with the ball? I'd love to see him at NT.

Rick

[FirefightnRick]

The issue of whether this affects UNT quarterback recruiting pushed aside, I really can't wait for that glorious day when the spread offense falls from fashion. It really does look like nothing more than sixth grade recess two hand touch everybody go long and hope for the best to me.

Man I couldn't agree with you more. I can't stand it. I wished Weatherfkrd would go to a wishbone or the Pistol. The new coach at Brewer HS runs the the triple option out of the Pistol because he knows it's the only week an opponent will have to prepare for it. I watched the Army vs UConn game this weekend that was played at Yankee Stadium and am always amazed at how a smaller team can move the ball with that phylosophy.

Rick

[untjim1995]

The issue of whether this affects UNT quarterback recruiting pushed aside, I really can't wait for that glorious day when the spread offense falls from fashion. It really does look like nothing more than sixth grade recess two hand touch everybody go long and hope for the best to me.

Count me in, as well, as someone who thinks the spread offense is glorified backyard football. I don't know how or when, but some defense is going to figure out how to punish that offense and it will end it for good. Just like the wishbone and option football got dealt a crushing blow when defenses figured out that you had to get quicker LBs at DLinemen to stop it, someone is gonna figure this out.

I like the 20-13 game way more than the 82-27 game.

Edited November 10, 2014 by untjim1995

[Aldo]

Anyone else feel like Vito is getting more and more passive aggressive on this topic?

Smart QBs know that style shouldn't be a factor in deciding where to go.

Pro-style offenses in college produce more NFL-ready QBs (I am speaking in generalities here). Pro style QBs go earlier in the draft because of development. Pro-style doesn't mean statue QB, either.

But I digress. I know we're no NFL factory, but this article makes it sound like UNT is the only pro-style offense in the country. Lots of Big 10 schools run the pro-style offense and have no problem recruiting qbs. Because they're Big 10.

That's your answer. We have difficulty recruiting because we're not Michigan State, Stanford, Wisconsin, [insert other historied school with pro-style offense here].

[FirefightnRick]

Count me in, as well, as someone who thinks the spread offense is glorified backyard football. I don't know how or when, but some defense is going to figure out how to punish that offense and it will end it for good. Just like the wishbone and option football got dealt a crushing blow when defenses figured out that you had to get quicker LBs at DLinemen to stop it, someone is gonna figure this out.

I like the 20-13 game way more than the 82-27 game.

It's already happening. See the Bama vs LSU game last weekend that went into overtime. 17 and 15 first downs. 200 yards passing for Bama and 76 for LSU. Both schools have track speed at every DB/Corner position that afford their DC's the confidence to run tight coverage that has them latch onto WR's shutting them down. The problem is not every team has that talent at the DB position so O coordinators see the opportunity and stick with it.

I'm willing to bet that if Oregon or Baylor face Bama in the playoff that they get shut down?

Rick

[untjim1995]

It's already happening. See the Bama vs LSU game last weekend that went into overtime. 17 and 15 first downs. 200 yards passing for Bama and 76 for LSU. Both schools have track speed at every DB/Corner position that afford their DC's the confidence to run tight coverage that has them latch onto WR's shutting them down. The problem is not every team has that talent at the DB position so O coordinators see the opportunity and stick with it.

I'm willing to bet that if Oregon or Baylor face Bama in the playoff that they get shut down?

Rick

I agree, but even Alabama has had trouble with that offense in past years, with losses against Texas A&M and Auburn. All that said, you're right in that those teams have the athletes to at least hold their own against it. I just think that the Texas HS offenses running this spread actually stunts some defensive development because of practices that aren't full tackle contact (see Todd Dodge here). Unless you have a coach who can teach defensive skills, like Patterson at TCU seems to do better than most, you have to take the good with the bad and try to develop them into decent players over time. At some places, Baylor or Tech or A&M, defense is just given a token amount of coaching and the focus is on offense. And even at places with coaches who are good at developing defensive teams, like TCU and even here with McCarney, you can still get caught up in track meets because of the rules and the immense amount of offensive talent that exists on rosters in the state of Texas. Schools like Texas and Oklahoma are finding out that their defenses are not equipped, for varying reasons, to stop the spread offenses. Whether they go full bore at being offensive-focused teams like Baylor and A&M right now or find a defensive scheme that can stop those offenses enough to beat them regularly is the biggest question they face. The problem, again, though, is that the majority of your recruits play this glorified flag football, so you've got to be able to teach how to hit and tackle very quickly, which is obviously easier said than done in today's college football world.

[Ben Gooding]

I like MAc a lot--and I don't fault him for following his gut with the offensive gameplan he believes in. But what else is he going to say when asked this question? Its not like he's gonna say, "Well, our old school offense really doesn't appeal at all to any decent passing QB in this state, which is too bad, since 95% of them play in a spread offense."

I think we have 3+ season to show that QB bus drivers are the best this offense is ever going to attract, especially now that Dajon Williams has been removed from being the starter because he couldn't drive the bus well enough. Derke Thompson and Andrew McNulty are going to be the QBs that we will have here under Mac. He wants kids who buy into his entire philosophy and won't kill them with several stupid mistakes per game. He is fine with limited capability at that position if it means we don't turn the ball over a lot and have a power running game. It is a new Buick, driven by a more upbeat and PR-savvy head coach than the old model we traded in back in 2006. McNulty will start here next year, mark my words. He will be the next "Derek Thompson", a solid-SR QB that will show great character and leadership. What that really means is that if we have an OLine that can develop into something next year and the RBs are solid, we have the chance to have a 2013-like season again. If not, it will look a lot like 2014 again...

Having guys like DT and AM is fine, but you better start recruiting way better defensive linemen and lb's.

As most know I have only been following this program for working on my 4th year, but my favorite player to date is James Jones. Dude just plays football. He plays with above average technique, he can play the ball and play his WR, aggression (given his size), and he's good on run support. While the secondary has been underperforming he's quiten been our rock on the back end. He does all this without pounding his chest or really even opening his mouth. I just wanted to give a shout out to him. Dudes a baller.

[GreenN'walinsVet]

YAll are confusing things. The Alabamas and LSU's of the world have figured out how to stop the spread offenses (see the past 8 BCS championships games). What's temporarily giving the problems now is the up tempo teams. Give Em another year or two and the Sabins of this world will figure that one out to

[TIgreen01]

I, too, hate the spread teams that refuse to play defense. Looking straight at Briles, Leach, Sumlin, Oregon's revolving coaching door, etc. I'm sure this is a learned behavior from having watch Dodge crap all over it here, though.

I'd love for it to die a horribly painful death. The problem is that the spread is going to remain popular in high school ball because it puts kids out in space and most teams cannot field enough good one on one tacklers to stop it. Remember, this crappy offensive philosophy started in HS and has bled into college and pro ball.

Edited November 10, 2014 by TIgreen01

[untjim1995]

Having guys like DT and AM is fine, but you better start recruiting way better defensive linemen and lb's.

As most know I have only been following this program for working on my 4th year, but my favorite player to date is James Jones. Dude just plays football. He plays with above average technique, he can play the ball and play his WR, aggression (given his size), and he's good on run support. While the secondary has been underperforming he's quiten been our rock on the back end. He does all this without pounding his chest or really even opening his mouth. I just wanted to give a shout out to him. Dudes a baller.

At a school like ours, you're just going to have to develop these no stars, 1-stars, and 2 stars into 3 and 4 star type players, particularly in the front seven on defense and on the OLine. We always have a solid stable of running backs and we usually have a decent corps of WRs. But its the front seven that will determine if the secondary is great or putrid (there's generally no in between here) and its the OLine that will determine if your running game will give that defense the rest it needs. Last year, we had all of that, in Year 3 of Mac's tenure. Then we lost a ton of starters. Now, we are basically in Year 1 again, based on the results we have seen--the question is if it will take just a year to rebuild or if it will take 2 or more years.

One thing is for certain, though. It won't be because of the QB. Since we moved back up to Division 1-A in 1995, we have had one QB who could've been a legitimate passer for an entire season, Giovanni Vizza. He had the size and the arm--he just got beaten up so bad during games in his freshman season and beaten down so much off the field because of the Dodge-coached program he got involved with here that he didn't have the heart to keep going, so he quit. Other than that, no other QB we have had since then was a QB that you could look at and say that he had the potential to lead a conference in passing or win a game with his arm. Its just how it has always been here--Simon, Dickey, Dodge, or McCarney--three of them couldn't or didn't recruit decent throwing QBs, while Dodge did, but he was incompetent at actually running a college program. That is why we know that the only path to success we have seen here has been thru the busdriver-offense route, which rode the coattails of a great defense and special teams, as well as a dominant running game to keep the clock rolling and keep the defense off the field.

[untjim1995]

YAll are confusing things. The Alabamas and LSU's of the world have figured out how to stop the spread offenses (see the past 8 BCS championships games). What's temporarily giving the problems now is the up tempo teams. Give Em another year or two and the Sabins of this world will figure that one out to

Great point and I think you are right about the defense figuring out the up-tempo offenses, too. Hell, Saban tried to get the rules committee to change some of the rules regarding the no-huddle offenses on the grounds of "safety", but that was easily seen as benefitting the defense, which was his main reason for doing it. But he (or someone like him) will figure it out, I'm sure. And it will be awesome to go back to real football instead of glorified tag football at the schoolyard.

[Ben Gooding]

Maybe, maybe not. We can recruit a QB, but the reality of the situation is when given the opportunity to throw he can't throw more picks than td's in conference play. With a dominant running game, particularly in conference play, there should be all sorts of people open on play action plays. But for some reason or another we haven't ever consistently ran true play action. We'll get in shotgun and the QB will half heartedly hold the ball out there for a split second then make his reads, same with last year. When we pass we almost pass to run, we don't run to open up the pass. Pretty much west coast offense but with half the pass attempts. If we are going to go ground and pound while using power, that's great; I don't care. But we have to use power run hard play action to give these WR's separation. A real play action game is suppose to look like a typical run play that we consistently run with all the same pull guards for power but pulling the ball. If we're going to do something let's do it 100%, not half hearted. If we were committed to a game plan as such our QB wouldn't have to have great arm strength or accuracy. He would have to be adequate at hitting what should be open guys under probable run blitzes.

[SilverEagle]

Me neither. Don't see them.

Thank you Brett for trying to educate some ...........folks here.

By the way, there's another HS kid playing close by that fits our QB mold, is big(6'3 or 6'4"), tough as hell and will tuck it and run over people, has a rocket of an arm and can lay a nice touch on the fades and most of all isnt getting a lot of attention for some reason and that's Jesse Drummond at Justin Northwest High School. So far we've got a committ from his bad ass reciever Emanuel Moore. Y'all are REALLY gonna love that kid BTW. But Jesse can throw the rock and seems smart with the ball? I'd love to see him at NT.

Rick

Wait, does he have an awkward throwing motion and does he get a "deer in the headlights" look when he's under pressure? If the answer is no to either of those questions then I doubt of Canales would be interested.

Serious question. Does he have any speed? Tucking the ball in and running over high school players is fine for high school ball, but he's going to have to be able to get around and/or past college defenders.

Edited November 10, 2014 by SilverEagle

[LongJim]

The spread (sling and fling version) is most easily defeated by:

#1, A defense that can pressure the QB, tackle well, and stop the run.

#2: Eating clock (yes CLOCK) with an offense that doesn't try to score within 2-3 minutes.

#3: Use a well-coached kicking game to influence field position to make the pass-happy offense go the length of the field.

Oddly, and perhaps boringly--all of these are things that this coaching staff preaches.

Edited November 10, 2014 by LongJim