North Texas Recruiting

wardly · October 15, 2014

Why is it so hard to recruit at North Texas? I could understand why Fouts was a turn off, and understand that our new stadium just leveled the playing field, but what are the specific reasons that make it difficult to get players to Denton or has Dickey's statement of 10 years ago become a cop out for our current staff?

GOMG2013 · October 15, 2014

Losing.

Other alternatives very close to UNT and the state.

Better conferences.

money spent on athletics.

While UNT has improved in several areas over the last few years, it takes a while for it to have an impact or the word to even get out.

There are some who still does not know UNT is D1. Some that do not know UNT is in cusa. Dont know that there is a new stadium. Dont know UNT went bowling last year.

Other than location, what advantage does UNT have over the comp?

Eagle1855 · October 15, 2014

Losing.
Other alternatives very close to UNT and the state.
Better conferences.
money spent on athletics.
While UNT has improved in several areas over the last few years, it takes a while for it to have an impact or the word to even get out.
There are some who still does not know UNT is D1. Some that do not know UNT is in cusa. Dont know that there is a new stadium. Dont know UNT went bowling last year.
Other than location, what advantage does UNT have over the comp?

None. And this post is dead-on accurate.

The brand is not associated with winning in any way, shape, form. Conference affiliation, budget, and W/L record are all indicators of the quality of a program.

The next question is, how do we change it?

I'd argue we've done several things to change our standing in the college football landscape, which includes massive facility upgrades (investment into the program) and change in conference affiliation (changes perception).

We just need that to translate into a couple marquee wins and a big, big season. Once. Not a 9-4 effort. A 12-1, nationally-ranked effort.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Eagle1855

Cerebus · October 15, 2014

Dickey's statement of 10 years ago become a cop out for our current staff?

Dickey out recruited everyone who has followed him. How can anyone use his excuses to do worse when many of the things he complained about are fixed?

Don't you think Dickey would of loved to recruit to Apogee and sell being in CUSA West:

La Tech

Rice

UTEP

UTSA

Southern Miss

So yes, recruiting here is harder than recruiting to Florida. However 1) recent coaches here have done better, 2) good recruiting coaches can recruit anywhere, even Western Michigan.

GOMG2013 · October 15, 2014

Just read the comments when kids commit to schools. A kid that commits to Kansas...#Big 12...

That kid's main reason is to play big 12 football. UNT has no shot with kids that have dreams of playing in a certain conference.

Recently UNT was in the mix for some good 2013 recruits. Kalee Woods, DJ Dean, and Jermaine Antwain. I would say the upgrades in facilities and conference had UNT in the running. Mac is also a great salesman. Still, Arkansas, TCU, and Texas Tech came in and got them at the last minute.

There is nothing UNT can do to stop that other than winning. DJ dean got on the field for Arkansas as a true freshman. The other two are not even on the 2 deep...

meangreanmick · October 15, 2014

I ran into a guy in San Francisco a few weeks ago who was in my fraternity right after I graduated. He lives in Frisco (TX). We came upon football and I invited him to come tailgate.

I don't think he knew we were in CUSA, he had no idea who we played 9 a weekly basis, he vaguely knew we had a new stadium but had never been. His only comment was UNT needs to get in a new conference. My response was yeah, but we just upgraded and now have Southern Miss, Rice, etc, etc in our conference. Again he had no idea.

Sports fans are lazy and are sheep. Unless they have a passion for a school like UNT, they follow the flock and believe it when they are told big programs are the only ones that matter. They are bombarded with big12, sec, etc on TV and advertising. You have to SEEK info for programs in the outside like North Texas.

Combine that with the fact that North Texas as a school and a an athletic program (don't under estimate the school part) is trying to overcome decades upon decades of the perception that it is a 2nd rate school.

I am a constant supporter now, but when I came out of HS, North Texas (then NTSU) was seen as a last choice option. I went elsewhere and eventually transferred to UNT and was maybe one of the best decisions of my life.

That's why.

Edited October 15, 2014 by meangreanmick

DeepGreen · October 15, 2014

The Austin American Statesman is all about Univ. of Texas(as expected), the Big 12 and Big 12 schools, and the other five power conferences. Other than a smattering of Texas State coverage, the Statesman never, ever lists the conference rankings of the G5 conferences. Think about that. Our state is home to FBS teams North Texas, UTEP, Rice, Houston, Texas State, SMU, and UTSA, yet you never ever see CUSA or Sun Belt standings on Monday morning. It's all about the P6 conferences.

Yet, UNT is hard to recruit to.

BillySee58 · October 15, 2014

Thanks, Cerebus, for spreading the word on Western Michigan. The more you know.

wardly · October 15, 2014

If UNT is that hard to recruit to, how do you explain the success of ULL and Arkansas State? They are in similar sized towns in the Sun Belt, but field much better football teams that we do.

GOMG2013 · October 15, 2014

If UNT is that hard to recruit to, how do you explain the success of ULL and Arkansas State? They are in similar sized towns in the Sun Belt, but field much better football teams that we do.

Other than LSU and Arkansas, they are competing with similar schools and not a lot of them. And are they really much better?

untjim1995 · October 15, 2014

If UNT is that hard to recruit to, how do you explain the success of ULL and Arkansas State? They are in similar sized towns in the Sun Belt, but field much better football teams that we do.

To me, its because Arkansas and Louisiana are amongst quite a few southern states that have tons of talent, but that talent often times stays in state at the G5 level. And when you are the only G5 options in a state, like Arky State is in Arkansas or USM is in Mississippi, you are gonna catch some good kids. In Louisiana, where you have a few more options on the G5 side of things, you look at what ULL has done to distinguish themselves from being looked at like ULM is--they have increased funding and coaching pay bigtime, and they have seen a huge uptick in attendance. And they have won bowl games recently--not just one, but a couple of them. To me, they are like La Tech--they get solid talent there for a state that has a lot to choose from. Here in Texas, you have 7 G5 schools to recruit against. Not one of them is branded as poorly as we are with parents and Texas HS coaches. The worst of the branding is one that we really cannot get out from underneath--apathy. You can be a loser, but if you have pride amongst the alumni, student body, and local citiznery, then you can attract some quality people--both in coaches and in players. I still believe with all my heart that Coach Mac never imagined it could be this hard here to continuously sell the program--not to fans, not to recruits, not to the media, and not to the alumni. I think he felt like if Hayden could accomplish what he did here when the school and the town were much smaller, imagine what we could do TODAY if we turn this into a winner, with all of these people around here. Its gonna be like South Florida or Central Florida all over again. Well, its becoming rather apparent that this is not the same situation. The only schools that come close to mimicking our situation in terms of size, location, and dealing with larger institutions that get all of the main interest from fans and the media is San Jose State. They play in the hear of the pac-12, just as we play in the heart of the Big 12. They are outside of SF and Oakland, but not by much, but the media out there cover Stanford and Cal first, the rest of the Pac-12 second, then the rest of the P5, then you get to them. Sound familar? Its gonna take a person of McCarney's ilk to stick this out and build into a winner and somehow change the perception up here of the school. Otherwise, he's gonna do what Fry did or he's gonna end up getting fired like Dickey did--he's gonna get fed up around here and either find another job or just give up like DIckey did when he couldn't turn this gig into another one up the foodchain.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · October 15, 2014

Losing.
Other alternatives very close to UNT and the state.
Better conferences.
money spent on athletics.
While UNT has improved in several areas over the last few years, it takes a while for it to have an impact or the word to even get out.
There are some who still does not know UNT is D1. Some that do not know UNT is in cusa. Dont know that there is a new stadium. Dont know UNT went bowling last year.
Other than location, what advantage does UNT have over the comp?

Cool new helmets.

GOMG2013 · October 15, 2014

I am a UH alum and you find the same threads on thier site and they have been ranked and has had much more success. Only cure is winning and building a strong die hard fanbase.

First thing that has to be done is to take over Denton and the surrounding areas. If you cant become the favorite team of the locals, then how do you expect others to care?

Trying to convert people is a waste. Go after new and young area kids. Hit them up in elementary and middle school before the media and the hype of the other schools get to them.

Its gonna take a lot of marketing and money to get it done. Especially with communities investing time and money into high school football as thier football fix.

TheColonyEagle · October 15, 2014

I agree that most sports fans. And college football fans only know about the P5 schools. And actually, only about 30 or so of those 65 schools.

That's is all they see is Alabama, Texas, etc.

But

I bet all those people know who Boise State is.

How do they know Boise State?

MeanGreenWithEnvy · October 15, 2014

One thing that

To me, its because Arkansas and Louisiana are amongst quite a few southern states that have tons of talent, but that talent often times stays in state at the G5 level. And when you are the only G5 options in a state, like Arky State is in Arkansas or USM is in Mississippi, you are gonna catch some good kids. In Louisiana, where you have a few more options on the G5 side of things, you look at what ULL has done to distinguish themselves from being looked at like ULM is--they have increased funding and coaching pay bigtime, and they have seen a huge uptick in attendance. And they have won bowl games recently--not just one, but a couple of them. To me, they are like La Tech--they get solid talent there for a state that has a lot to choose from. Here in Texas, you have 7 G5 schools to recruit against.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Yes, we are in a state with loads of high school football talent, but we're recruiting against the benches of UT, A&M, Tech, and competitive slots at UH, Rice, Texas State, UTSA, and UTEP. This isn't to say that we're in a hopeless situation, but it is no doubt a tough situation. DD had a great pipeline with HS coaches; I'd hoped that Mac would be able to establish an even better pipeline. I think we're seeing that, but it's not been as fast as many of us had hoped.

Not one of them is branded as poorly as we are with parents and Texas HS coaches. The worst of the branding is one that we really cannot get out from underneath--apathy. You can be a loser, but if you have pride amongst the alumni, student body, and local citiznery, then you can attract some quality people--both in coaches and in players.

This is where the bigger issues with UNT and its alumni come into play. A&M, Tech, and UT alums have a deep attachment to their schools, one that the schools cultivate from their time as students throughout their alumni years. UNT has not done that for what, decades? Unless you're a self-selector like most of us here, once you graudate you're done with UNT. You might...MIGHT...get contacted by the alumni association, but that's about it. Off the top of my head, I can name a venture capitalist, two nationally-recognized writers, and two accomplished lawyers among my alumni friends who have never been contacted by the university after their graduation.

That glaring deficit has started to be addressed, but there's no overstating how much the lack of attention to cultivating alumni connection to the university has damaged our brand with our own alums, much less with the wider community.

I still believe with all my heart that Coach Mac never imagined it could be this hard here to continuously sell the program--not to fans, not to recruits, not to the media, and not to the alumni. I think he felt like if Hayden could accomplish what he did here when the school and the town were much smaller, imagine what we could do TODAY if we turn this into a winner, with all of these people around here. Its gonna be like South Florida or Central Florida all over again. Well, its becoming rather apparent that this is not the same situation.

I believe that we can be like South Florida or Central Florida, but it's going to take some time. It's not going to happen with a steadily-increasing win total and one bowl game. That's the beginning. To shift perceptions with very little help from our disengaged alumni (see above), it's going to take 4-5 years of success and bowl games.

Its gonna take a person of McCarney's ilk to stick this out and build into a winner and somehow change the perception up here of the school. Otherwise, he's gonna do what Fry did or he's gonna end up getting fired like Dickey did--he's gonna get fed up around here and either find another job or just give up like DIckey did when he couldn't turn this gig into another one up the foodchain.

It needs to be Mac or it needs to be someone who knows what they're getting into and who will give this job a five or six year commitment. Is Mac the right guy? I believe he is. I'm not convinced all of his assistants are, though.

akriesman · October 15, 2014

IMO, Mac's biggest asset has been his reaching out to the students when they come on board as freshmen. He is a great cheerleader for the university. Now, we have to do something to keep their interest.

We can have an off season. But, sustained losing periods are tough to recover from. It would have been nice to follow up last seasons success with at least a competitive CUSA team. I had faith until the UAB debacle.

Greendylan · October 15, 2014

Is it tough to beat out a Big XII program for a recruit? Yes, but it's not impossible. However, that's not what concerns me.

This is what troubles me: We are lower in the Rivals rankings than schools such as South Alabama, Texas State, UTSA, Western Michigan, Florida Atlantic, Toledo, and well, just about everyone else in the nation. We are currently 106 and tied with Louisiana-Monroe.

Is this acceptable? Are we shoulder to shoulder with ULM regarding assets to offer recruits? Do we have WAY, WAY less to offer than Western Michigan that is currently 50 spots ahead of us? They have a modest stadium built in 1939, 1 winning season in the past 5, MAC membership, and a location in Kalamazoo. They too are in a state that is a feasting ground for a major conference. I know I'm cherry picking the most extreme example at present, but those Rivals rankings reveal all sorts of "Group of Five" programs with no significant recent tradition of winning that are absolutely torching us at recruiting. We can either twist facts around for each one of them until we come up with an excuse for why that school just might have some slight advantage here or there. Or, we can admit that we suck at recruiting and address the problem.

meangreanmick · October 15, 2014

I agree that most sports fans. And college football fans only know about the P5 schools. And actually, only about 30 or so of those 65 schools.
That's is all they see is Alabama, Texas, etc.
But
I bet all those people know who Boise State is.
How do they know Boise State?

Who is Boise?

817Fan · October 15, 2014

Just read the comments when kids commit to schools. A kid that commits to Kansas...#Big 12...
That kid's main reason is to play big 12 football. UNT has no shot with kids that have dreams of playing in a certain conference.
Recently UNT was in the mix for some good 2013 recruits. Kalee Woods, DJ Dean, and Jermaine Antwain. I would say the upgrades in facilities and conference had UNT in the running. Mac is also a great salesman. Still, Arkansas, TCU, and Texas Tech came in and got them at the last minute.
There is nothing UNT can do to stop that other than winning. DJ dean got on the field for Arkansas as a true freshman. The other two are not even on the 2 deep...

Jermain Antoine wanted more playing time once he got to TCU... left for McNeese

http://highschoolsports.nola.com/news/article/-8731324167001963689/former-loreauville-wide-receiver-jermaine-antoine-transfers-from-tcu-to-mcneese-state-website-reports/

NT03 · January 17, 2015

Thanks, Cerebus, for spreading the word on Western Michigan. The more you know.

https://twitter.com/sbnationcfb/status/556530903795896323

SilverEagle · January 18, 2015

IMO, Mac's biggest asset has been his reaching out to the students when they come on board as freshmen. He is a great cheerleader for the university. Now, we have to do something to keep their interest.

We can have an off season. But, sustained losing periods are tough to recover from. It would have been nice to follow up last seasons success with at least a competitive CUSA team. I had faith until the UAB debacle.

.....and here comes SilverEagle saying what he always says in this situation.........HE CAN'T DO IT ALL!!! EVERYONE in the athletic department needs to be a cheerleader. Where are they and why aren't they out there constantly shaking their NT pom poms for the program?