MGB: Five thoughts

untjim1995 · October 14, 2014

So how would you explain places like UAB who doesn't have a pot to piss in facility wise can manage to put together the team that skewered us? With a high school coach no less? I'm sorry i just don't buy it.

In my opinion, part of it is that it is just football. Teams get plastered sometimes. The snowball turns into an avalanche. You don't think the folks as La Tech and Southern Miss weren't saying the same things about us after we demolished both of them last year? I guess we really pounded them both on the recruiting front, right? Nope. In reality, our recruiting rankings are never as good as theirs. Why? Well, part of it is due to the fact that they are in talented hotbeds without a ton of G5 choices around them. Part of it is also having a winning tradition and several great wins over teams that people care about. Plus, they often get to show off to recruits when they host P5 schools--either at their place or close by in Shreveport like La Tech does. Nebraska and Texas A&M have played at USM. Texas A&M and Miami have played in Shreveport against La Tech in previous years. It doesn't matter if you lose those games in terms of recruiting because their parents and coaches like the fact that they can watch their kids play a big time school at or near home--they aren't losing a recruit to A&M because its already an unwinnable battle on that front. But you can beat the hell out of other G5s for recruits when you get to say that we played the Heisman Trophy winner to a near draw, like La Tech got to say a couple of years ago.

I'm just saying--if the question is why has our recruiting always sucked and continues to suck, it isn't because UAB kicked our ass last week. Its because UAB has some very good talent in Alabama to choose from that is not going to Bama or Auburn, but will stay at home at UAB or Troy. Same with La Tech--kids that don't go to LSU, but stay in Louisiana are looking at LT, ULL, or Tulane. Meanwhile, we compete for recruits against former SWC mates in UH, SMU, and Rice, current CUSA teams who literally have none of the issues we carry in UTSA and UTEP. Add in the fact that all of the previous G5 teams listed, plus Tulsa, also recruit this area hard and you have all of that competition to fight against--while wearing an albatross of being a long-time loser and having major apathy among your students, alumni, and local citizenry.

You can call this all excuses--and they all are just that. But they are self-inflicted wounds that were started 30+ years before we finally decided to try and stop overdosing ourselves. To me, if a guy like Dan McCarney cannot improve recruiting here, with all of that charisma and positivity he carries with him, then you have to ask yourself why recruiting never improves decidely here, when we play in the hottest of hotbeds for recruiting. It ain't all on Coach Mac, just like it wasn't on Todd Dodge, Darrell Dickey, or Matt Simon. Moving up to Division 1-A in 1995, winning SBC Championships and a NO Bowl from 2001-2005, hiring the top HS coach in the state in 2007, building a new state-of-the-art stadium in 2011, hiring a coach who has had success as an actual college head coach in 2011, and joining a better conference in 2013 has equaled an annual recruiting ranking of 90+ every year for as long as you want to look back, usually in the 100s. Classes that low have to be developed--they aren't going to be full of playmakers in their first couple of years. So all we can do is wait to see if that happens again, as it did finally in 2013. And Coach Mac has the luxury of having time to develop it all again, due to the recent extension he deservingly received after last year's HoD Bowl win.

Edited October 14, 2014 by untjim1995

Mean Green 93-98 · October 14, 2014

In my opinion, part of it is that it is just football. Teams get plastered sometimes. The snowball turns into an avalanche. You don't think the folks as La Tech and Southern Miss weren't saying the same things about us after we demolished both of them last year? I guess we really pounded them both ont he recruiting front, right? Nope. In reality, our recruiting rankings are never as good as theirs. Why? Well, part of it is due to the fact that they are in talented hotbeds without a ton of G5 choices around them. Part of it is also having a winning tradition and several great wins over teams that people care about. Plus, they often get to show off to recruits when they host P5 schools--either at their place or close by in Shreveport like La Tech does. Nebraska and Texas A&M have played at USM. Texas A&M and Miami have played in Shreveport against La Tech in previous years. It doesn't matter if you lose those games in terms of recruiting because their parents and coaches like the fact that they can watch their kids play a big time school at or near home--they aren't losing a recruit to A&M because its already an unwinnable battle on that front. But you can beat the hell out of other P5s for recruits when you get to say that we played the Heisman Trophy winner to a near draw, like La Tech got to say a couple of years ago.

I'm just saying--if the question is why has our recruiting always sucked and continues to suck, it isn't because UAB kicked our ass last week. Its because UAB has some very good talent in Alabama to choose from that is not going to Bama or Auburn, but will stay at home at UAB or Troy. Same with La Tech--kids that don't go to LSU, but stay in Louisiana are looking at LT, ULL, or Tulane. Meanwhile, we compete for recruits against former SWC mates in UH, SMU, and Rice, current CUSA teams who literally have none of the issues we carry in UTSA and UTEP. Add in the fact that all of the previous G5 teams listed, plus Tulsa, also recruit this area hard and you have all of that competition to fight against--while wearing an albatross of being a long-time loser and having major apathy among your students, alumni, and local citizenry.

You can call this all excuses--and they all are just that. But they are self-inflicted wounds that were started 30+ years before we finally decided to try and stop overdosing ourselves. To me, if a guy like Dan McCarney cannot improve recruiting here, with all of that charisma and positivity he carries with him, then you have to ask yourself why recruiting never improves decidely here, when we play in the hottest of hotbeds for recruiting. It ain't all on Coach Mac, just like it wasn't on Todd Dodge, Darrell Dickey, or Matt Simon. Moving up to Division 1-A in 1995, winning SBC Championships and a NO Bowl from 2001-2005, hiring the top HS coach in the state in 2007, building a new state-of-the-art stadium in 2011, hiring a coach who has had success as an actual college head coach in 2011, and joining a better conference in 2013 has equaled an annual recruiting ranking of 90+ every year for as long as you want to look back, usually in the 100s. Classes that low have to be developed--they aren't going to be full of playmakers in their first couple of years. So all we can do is wait to see if that happens again, as it did finally in 2013. And Coach Mac has the luxury of having time to develop it all again, due to the recent extension he desrevingly received after last year's HoD Bowl win.

When has McCarney ever been a good recruiter? That's not to deny that he has other strengths, but citing McCarney's failure to recruit to NT does nothing to prove the impossibility of a good recruiter to recruit to UNT. Todd Dodge was able to get players to decommit from Tulsa (when they were at their peak) and TCU to come to UNT. And I don't believe Todd Dodge was a great recruiter. Neither was Dickey. So until we actually get a top recruiting coach here, we will never know what we're capable of on that front.

untjim1995 · October 14, 2014

When has McCarney ever been a good recruiter? That's not to deny that he has other strengths, but citing McCarney's failure to recruit to NT does nothing to prove the impossibility of a good recruiter to recruit to UNT. Todd Dodge was able to get players to decommit from Tulsa (when they were at their peak) and TCU to come to UNT. And I don't believe Todd Dodge was a great recruiter. Neither was Dickey. So until we actually get a top recruiting coach here, we will never know what we're capable of on that front.

I'd bet you a lot of money that if Todd Dodge had better facilities here when he first got here, he'd have brought in even better classes, just because people had heard of his legacy at SLC--but eventually, his coaching is what killed it for him. I totally agree on Dickey--he was Debbie Downer with a McCarney gameplan. But McCarney's attitude is so upbeat and positive, you'd think it would improve the recruiting here by now. Yet when I meet or talk to high school coaches, they still act like UNT is a wasteland--that McCarney is breath of fresh air, but its almost always followed with a "you know, he has his work cut out for him there..."

Caw Caw · October 15, 2014

I tend to think of recruiting as a sales gig. I work in the other recruiting industry, you know the normal non-athletic one. I've seen people plucked out of happy, well paying jobs at companies that are double and triple the size of the company they end up leaving for. There are reasons, the money, the opportunity, the structure of a company, the title, etc. Recruiting is to some degree what you have, but i'd say 70% of it is being able to sell. Maybe it's not all the product, and it's not all McCarney. Maybe it's the sales techniques, the pitch.

He's an old school guy, with probably an old school pitch, and old school methods. At some level, almost every program turn around started with a shit hole situation, and likely a no name coach. There's an adage that people continue brand and company loyalty not because of what it selling, but because of why. I think Dan has a good why, but you still have to be able to articulate that vision and be charismatic enough to draw people in to what your selling even before that vision is manifested.

There is a reason guys like Sumlin in a place like Houston (then A&M) and Kingsburry were/are so successful right now, they are still within range of these kids and what appeals to them. Everyone always wants to emulate the cool older brother, but if your dad told you to do the same things, immediate opposition. I honestly think a better approach to selling and the psychology of these things would improve it a lot more than the situation. Obviously consistent winning will help, the facilities and things help, but when you are in the competitive market we are in, and in the position we are in you have to get creative. Outside the box isn't exactly a McCarney moniker, and that's fine, i think he's a solid capable approach. But as a coach, you take your strengths and hire away from those. If i'm him, i'm hiring younger guys to help recruits relate to the program maybe even some former players. If i'm Kingsburry, I'm hiring old hard nosed experienced guys to provide the incites i haven't yet experienced.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Caw Caw

Eagle1855 · October 15, 2014

My extreme solution to this problem is to say F* Texas. We're still a laughing stock outside of the metroplex. Go to areas that don't see the Tshirt OU & UT alums. Recruit everywhere but Texas. No kid will pick UNT over TCU, OU, UT, etc. Our stigma is too big for too long. It ain't happening. However, a kid that might go to NIU, La Tech, WKU, Ball St., Marshall, Miami Ohio, etc. this is where we need to focus. Lots of kids want to leave home and play out of state. This should be our recruiting plan...

I don't know about the rest of this cut-off-nose-to-spite-face line of thinking, but the parts in bold are painfully accurate.

I know someone got mocked for the comment about the person stopping them in the Houston Galleria asking about the jersey, but that's a pretty regular occurence outside D/FW. Casual fans of football haven't a clue what division UNT plays in -- and that matters. And I recognize this is a subject that's been beaten to death.

We need momentum. And not "oh neat, they won a few games in a weak C-USA and landed in a bowl game in Dallas -- which was only half-full, despite being in the backyard of their entire fanbase." The brand needs to do something that makes a statement, that people can't ignore. Then the brand will begin to change and folks will associate it with positive things -- like TCU did throughout the 2000's. We've never made a statement. We've never won a non-conference game that anyone remembers or cares about. We tied the most wins in history last season -- at nine. That's not a selling point. That's a stepping stone.

Even if this was a good plan -- going outside the state for talent -- I'm not sure we have the recruiting budget to make it happen.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Eagle1855

Ben Gooding · October 16, 2014

I think we have the money to go pick up gems out of Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Tennessee. As a matter of fact La Tech has now went up to Arkansas for RB's and have plucked out 2 gems in the dirt, from the same small 2A conference no less. Kenneth Dixon out of Strong, AR and they followed it up this year with getting a commit from Jaquis Dancy out of Junction City, AR. Both are steals and Dancy might turn into more of an asset to La Tech than KD has been. La Tech out recruits us every year and what do they have? A ran down town and stadium paired with a subpar education. Not being able to get guys here is an excuse. We live in Texas and there are more G5's here to compete for recruits, but there are also 10x more players.

MeanGreenTexan · October 16, 2014

I think we have the money to go pick up gems out of Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Tennessee. As a matter of fact La Tech has now went up to Arkansas for RB's and have plucked out 2 gems in the dirt, from the same small 2A conference no less. Kenneth Dixon out of Strong, AR and they followed it up this year with getting a commit from Jaquis Dancy out of Junction City, AR. Both are steals and Dancy might turn into more of an asset to La Tech than KD has been. La Tech out recruits us every year and what do they have? A ran down town and stadium paired with a subpar education. Not being able to get guys here is an excuse. We live in Texas and there are more G5's here to compete for recruits, but there are also 10x more players.

Ben Gooding · October 16, 2014

Haha, nice. That's in Murfreesboro. Another small town of 2A football in southern Arkansas. I am sure La Tech will find a player there in the near future too.

Eagle1855 · October 16, 2014

I think we have the money to go pick up gems out of Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Tennessee. As a matter of fact La Tech has now went up to Arkansas for RB's and have plucked out 2 gems in the dirt, from the same small 2A conference no less. Kenneth Dixon out of Strong, AR and they followed it up this year with getting a commit from Jaquis Dancy out of Junction City, AR. Both are steals and Dancy might turn into more of an asset to La Tech than KD has been. La Tech out recruits us every year and what do they have? A ran down town and stadium paired with a subpar education. Not being able to get guys here is an excuse. We live in Texas and there are more G5's here to compete for recruits, but there are also 10x more players.

So what's the point of hiring a gemologist if there are 10x as many players in Texas?

Ben Gooding · October 16, 2014

Mind set. Too many Texas kids know the mantra that surrounds this program. They've been force fed negative things about this program once the notion was made that a given player is good enough for college ball. Outside players don't hear that commotion and will come in ready to ball out, theoretically anyway.

UNT90 · October 16, 2014

Mind set. Too many Texas kids know the mantra that surrounds this program. They've been force fed negative things about this program once the notion was made that a given player is good enough for college ball. Outside players don't hear that commotion and will come in ready to ball out, theoretically anyway.

Terrible theory.

This isn't the 1920s. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Skype, among a million other communication tools let football recruits know everything they want to know about a university before picking that university (if they so choose to look).

greenminer · October 17, 2014

Mind set. Too many Texas kids know the mantra that surrounds this program. They've been force fed negative things about this program once the notion was made that a given player is good enough for college ball. Outside players don't hear that commotion and will come in ready to ball out, theoretically anyway.

UNT90 is correct: the world is much smaller and word gets around.

I wonder how good our football program could be in CUSA and for our football staff if something similar to Jordan Williams/Chris Jones/Tony Mitchell transpired: A once-in-25+ years recruit who gets a few of his esteemed camp peers to follow him to UNT.

Much like Dickey's Bowl run, we could ride their talent through some bowl seasons and let some long term mantra/momentum attach itself to happy, drunk Mean Green fans everywhere. And we wouldn't be attached to a staff that would drop f bombs to the fans and media.

Until today I had forgotten about Sam Miller. It has lifted my spirits about the future of our DL. I hope he pans out.

UNT90 · October 17, 2014

UNT90 is correct: the world is much smaller and word gets around.
I wonder how good our football program could be in CUSA and for our football staff if something similar to Jordan Williams/Chris Jones/Tony Mitchell transpired: A once-in-25+ years recruit who gets a few of his esteemed camp peers to follow him to UNT.
Much like Dickey's Bowl run, we could ride their talent through some bowl seasons and let some long term mantra/momentum attach itself to happy, drunk Mean Green fans everywhere. And we wouldn't be attached to a staff that would drop f bombs to the fans and media.

Until today I had forgotten about Sam Miller. It has lifted my spirits about the future of our DL. I hope he pans out.

Mac would leave one year into those players' careers and RV would re-hire Todd Dodge.

817Fan · October 17, 2014

Too many kids from Mac's 1st two years are gone. For whatever reason 16 or so didn't pan out. That's almost a full class of recruits. It's forced us to play young. Additionally, the staff prioritize their recruits differently. Our current signees are heavy on the O line & defensive backfield. -I was sorta hoping to see a class with 7 three star defensive linemen or so.

Got5onIt · October 17, 2014

Terrible theory.
This isn't the 1920s. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Skype, among a million other communication tools let football recruits know everything they want to know about a university before picking that university (if they so choose to look).

The world is smaller with news traveling across the country in a nanosecond. However, the local kids are constantly bombarded with the typical T-shirt alum mentality. They see this in every store they walk into and every idiot Joe Blow wearing his UT/OU hat. Now that TCU is carving its way to national prominence, the groundwork is being laid for their T-shirt status for years to come. The cold hard truth? Why are we being out recruited by UTSA & TSU in Texas?? SMU still garners more respect.

Our recruiting plan should heavily rely on out of state players & JUCO transfers looking to hit the field immediately. This needs to be the course for a minimum of 5 years. NT needs to string 4-5 years in a row of winning football AT A MINIMUM. Top 25 ranking thrown in there somewhere with a signature win. This is what it's going to take to get the respect of potential Texas players. Otherwise, we'll be having this same discussion every freakin' year. With the same vicious cycle of 4-5 years of losing with an occasional winning season thrown in as the current crop of players became Sr's.

Heavily recruit out of state high schoolers & JUCOs. Win now, establish consecutive winning seasons.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Got5onIt

UNT90 · October 17, 2014

The world is smaller with news traveling across the country in a nanosecond. However, the local kids are constantly bombarded with the typical T-shirt alum mentality. They see this in every store they walk into and every idiot Joe Blow wearing his UT/OU hat. Now that TCU is carving its way to national prominence, the groundwork is being laid for their T-shirt status for years to come. The cold hard truth? Why are we being out recruited by UTSA & TSU in Texas?? SMU still garners more respect.
Our recruiting plan should heavily rely on out of state players & JUCO transfers looking to hit the field immediately. This needs to be the course for a minimum of 5 years. NT needs to string 4-5 years in a row of winning football AT A MINIMUM. Top 25 ranking thrown in there somewhere with a signature win. This is what it's going to take to get the respect of potential Texas players. Otherwise, we'll be having this same discussion every freakin' year. With the same vicious cycle of 4-5 years of losing with an occasional winning season thrown in as the current crop of players became Sr's.
Heavily recruit out of state high schoolers & JUCOs. Win now, establish consecutive winning seasons.

I thought the TCU t-Shirt wearing fan had already been cultivated by Roy McAlvoy's buddy...

Ben Gooding · October 17, 2014

JUCO's aren't going to put us on a national stage, but they will give us W's. Right now we need instant production and the way to do that is to go out and recruit the hell out of JUCO's. The current roster is not where it needs to be and we need fill in players immediately to help us get back to a bowl game. If not we will be sitting home 2 years in a row. Go get some JUCO's and going bowling 2 out of 3 years is a sign of consistency and that is what we must have, consistency.