BillySee58

Did I say anything to the contrary? No I didn't. But the emphasis you put on this is as if a recruits eliminate us immediately once they find out we haven't had a draft pick since 2004. It doesn't help, but it's not some impossible disadvantage to overcome. Not when recruiting against G5 schools, it shouldn't be. Ah, location. So if that could've been helpful in us getting Goree, why wouldn't that be helpful in getting other current high school recruits? That is an advantage more than it is a disadvantage, then and now. But that wasn't even in our favor in the case of Goree. Carthage to Denton: 199 miles Carthage to Ruston: 113 miles Getting Rutherford didn't hurt, but Goree sounded sold on us, from all his interviews.You can string off names of recruits that we beat for LAT and UTSA, but he isn't the coach here any more. We all know why. We do all know why. Because he was horrific at recruiting. And despite being horrific at recruiting, he was still able to beat out La Tech and UTSA on a somewhat regular basis. He was a horrific recruiter whose first roster that had only recruits signed by him went 1-11. And if a recruiter that bad was still able to beat out UTSA and La Tech, what does that tell you about the recruiting ability of a coach who can't do that? Todd Dodge signed the #1 class in the Sun belt and #86 in the country back in 2008. Unfortunately he was an awful coach who was coaching with a staff of high school coaches and was not fit to run a college program. There's no reason a good coach can't replicate those results with an actual college staff, an actual college stadium, and a better conference.

Back in 2014 I started looking at offer lists in our recruits, how their careers went, and which ones became all-CUSA. This is also when I came up with my letter-grade system. C = recruits with no other FBS offers C+ = recruits with one other FBS offer B = recruits with two to four other FBS offers B+ = recruits with two to four other FBS offers but having at least one noteworthy offer (i.e. Houston, Boise State, P5) A = recruits with five to nine other FBS offers A+ = recruits with 10 or more other FBS offers Note that this is based on all offers received throughout the cycle. So for people who say I discredit expired offers when saying that 16 of our last 17 commits had no other schools actively recruiting them when they committed to us, here is where I do factor those expired offers in. Through the 2014 season I noticed that 7/8 (87.5%) of our all-CUSA players at that's point were B or better as recruits. Lemon was an A, Bellazin was an A, Trice was an A+, Y'Barbo was a B+, James Jones was a B+, Orr was a B+, Akunne was a B, and Chancellor was a C. I also noticed that these players had at least one year of starting experience or playing time equivalent heading into their all-CUSA season. I have since evaluated our classes based on what percent had B or better offer lists. I felt like at that point I had determined the criteria for players of ours most likely to be all-CUSA. At this point I was encouraged at looking at offer lists for teams across the conference, and all-CUSA players across the conference. I realized immediately that the time it would take to look at offers reported for every CUSA signee across all four recruiting sites would take time that I was not interested in investing. For example, I'm guessing you were looking at 247 for the offers you pulled. You have Darrell Brown as unrated with no other offers, but ESPN shows he had an East carolina and Missouri offer. Because for G5 recruits the offer lists are almost never consistent across the four major recruiting sites. I also noticed that most of the schools in our conference play in low population, low exposure areas. Which means Aaron Jones and Jordan Howard are not going to get the recruiting exposure playing in El Paso and Gardendale, Alabama that our recruits in DFW and Houston do. Because of that, I felt like comparing offer lists was more relevant comparing our classes signees to schools from areas of similar recruiting exposure, which is Rice, UTSA, FIU, and FAU. I found it less relevant with USM, WKU, and the like. Heading into 2015, I looked at the afore mentioned criteria and saw no one on that roster fit this criteria. Our experienced guys weren't recruited highly, and the guys who were did not have the experience. At this point I said "uh oh." The red flag had been raised and I thought we would see no all-CUSA players on our roster, which I felt would spell disaster. When ever I posted about it, I was written off, but I really was not shocked at our 1-11 season with no all-CUSA players. I thought three wins was likely given this criteria, and felt like less was absolutely realistic. I also felt like given the fact that our highly recruited players were slated to get experience in 2015, 2016 was always set up to be a year of marked improvement. Finally, I care less about offer lists for QBs, because fitting a system matters so much, WRs because small guys get overlooked yet don't need to be big to make plays, and DBs for similar reasons. It still matters to me, but less those positions than others. And the exposure that a recruit's high school generates also should be factored in when comparing offer lists. All of this personal research is what has led me to putting so much emphasis on offer lists.

It matters, but your posts seem to indicate that NFL players drafted and history are the end all, be all factors for recruits. Then why did Tee Goree choose us over Colorado, La Tech, and UTSA among others? Or why did Chris Miles choose us over La Tech and Houston? Why did Nate Brooks choose us over La Tech? I could string off a lot of names recruits we beat La Tech and UTSA out for during the Mccarney years. This isn't some impossible matchup. Nor is UTSA just because they don't have a history of losing. Good recruiters can win these matchups. They have them. Evidence implies we don't. Good recruiters can sell kids on their program even if they have things going against them.

Then you probably shouldn't be saying that my claim is just to discredit our recruiting. Again, missing the point here. We are not evaluating the recruits in their entirety. I do that separately. What is being evaluated is our coaches abilities to win head-to-head recruiting battles, which is why we look at the kids' recruitments at the time of commitment. Again, I do this separately. I am looking strictly at ability to win recruiting battles, so I will only look at pertinent information there. A Texas Tech offer 20 months ago doesn't qualify there. I factor in those offers when comparing the class to those of prior years in my letter grade rating system. I don't discredit them when evaluating the player, but I do when evaluating the coaches abilities to win recruiting battles. Because they didn't beat those teams out just like we didn't beat out Nebraska, Tennessee, Auburn, and Florida State for Kevin Dillman. Please, enlighten me on when I stated that I have some solution that the coaches haven't thought of? Rate the classes years later. I'm looking at the coaches and their ability to win head-to-head recruiting battles, which is immediately known. We will find out their evaluating and developing abilities later, which I completely concede to and is why I'm looking at head-to-head recruiting results now. Brammer, Parish, Roberts, Gieser, Tibbs, Thornton, McGee, Novil, Siggers, Darden, White, and then the 6 commitments we have received for the 2018 class, which includes Gage because we are looking at players who have committed. These are our last 17 commitments we have received.

What about that doesn't make sense? Did I ever say those guys couldn't play? Did I ever say they never held another FBS offer? Did I ever say I opposed those signings? As a matter of fact, I've been encouraging those type of signings before you even started posting on this board. Again, evaluating the coaches, not the players here. This has been explained to you a handful on times both directly and indirectly. The point is, we're getting guys by default. Some where big-time recruits at one point, and some weren't. I believe that every class we sign at UNT as long as we're in CUSA should include guys like Darden and Siggers at the end, and a few project guys with no other offers like Thornton or Novil. But when time after time we get guys almost exclusively uncontested (hence the 16 of last 17 stat to illustrate substance behind that claim), that raises concern that we are limited to only players no one else wants. And there's nothing wrong with people having that type of concern because it has been formed through evidence.

Dude, I just told you that it started after dead period ended, yet you're still bringing up recruits who committed before (Guyton, Davis, Fulp). I didn't say Littrell has never signed a kid who ever held another FBS offer. But since dead period ended we have received 17 commits, and 16 were uncontested as far as having other FBS schools actively recruiting them. Look how old Brammer and Parish's offers were, and the fact that they only had one official visit lined up after dead period tells you what the state of their recruiting was when they committed to us. By all means, wait to evaluate the class. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do otherwise. And I'm not trying to say these players are not FBS quality or were never offered by another FBS school. But this is quite the streak where we are getting players by default and that's unsettling to me. If you want to unconditionally praise Littrell, I'm not trying to stop you. Just presenting facts, and preventing you from misconstruing the fact behind what I posted, whether you want it to be the case or not.

Cameron Johnson is not among the last 17. Neither was Pearson. The last 17 have all come since dead period ended in January. When Siggers committed to us on January 31st, he had our hat, two FCS schools' hats (I believe Grambling and Texas Southern), and a Texas Tech hat on the table. His Texas Tech offer had come roughly 20 months prior to that date. If anyone thinks Tech was actually still recruiting him at the time, then they got duped by a 17 year-old putting a hat on a table. http://247sports.com/Player/Tre-Siggers-83677/TimelineEvents Jaelon Darden decommitted from UNLV on December 7th. After that he received just one offer, from Texas Southern. He was set to make his commitment on twitter, then a last minute offer from us after Trevone Bradley told our coaches he was going to Houston the night before NSD caused Darden to cancel his announcement and re-evaluate things. He then chose us over Texas Southern. All the offers you mentioned were from long before. http://247sports.com/Player/Jaelon-Darden-86078/TimelineEvents And White was committed to Grambling when we flipped him. And not because he wanted to play FCS ball over Ohio and Tulane, only to then change his mind when we came in. Again, outdated offers. http://247sports.com/Player/Gregory-White-81322/TimelineEvents Decent pickups. Players who FBS coaches did believe were good enough to play at this level. But players who our coaches were able to sign because they had no other FBS competition.

16 of the last 17 commitments garnered by this coaching staff have had no other FBS schools actively recruiting them at the time of commitment. The one who did was Antonio Gage, who spent the next month spamming his highlights to various coaches across the country before decommitting. It's not about the players, it's about the coaches. They are only getting commitments from players with no other offers, and there is no evidence to the contrary that they could get a player they want so long as someone else wants that player. The current look is that we are relegated to choosing between players no one else wants. @MGNation92 and I have both agreed on that, but everyone else seems to think the recruit's are who are being bashed on.

I have watched his film, but cares what I think of it? I'm just an accountant. But I do know how to root for him, which I will do. Welcome to UNT, Kason! Fleck signed the number 1 class in the MAC in 2014 coming off that 1-11 season. With him at least you knew by the time he was in year 4 you knew he'd have a loaded roster.

I don't know why it's such a foreign concept here that a coach could be both. And for $1 million a year he should be

The problem is letting the same athletic director be involved in the hiring process after proving incompetence in every aspect of his job time and time again. The eight coaches RV hired in the big three sports who have started their mean green coaching careers in the past 10 years are Dodge, Stephens, Mccarney, Aston, Benford, Peterson, Mitchell, Littrell. Those coaches are a combined 174 games under .500, including Canales as interim coach (188-362).

Exactly. Coaches who are good at recruiting can recruit anywhere. We have enough to pitch. No one is asking Littrell to outrecruit Texas or Oklahoma. These are the kind of offer lists I'm looking for: Zach Orr - San Diego State, UTEP, LA Tech, Tulsa https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/24112 Cyril Lemon - FIU, Houston, Missouri, Rice, La Tech, New Mexico St https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2011/cyril-lemon-52411 Mason Y'Barbo - Houston, Louisiana Monroe, FCS Schools https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/untmeangreen/2010/01/16/Football-Sulphur-Springs-lineman-commits-5249 Aaron Bellazin - Buffalo, Louisiana Monroe, San Diego State, SMU, UTEP, New Mexico https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2010/aaron-bellazin-64241 Throw in a BIG XII transfer in Marcus Trice, and a lightly recruited undersized player hitting in Brelan Chancellor, and that's the foundation and all-CUSA players on a 9-win team. I'm not even going to go in-depth on the 2008 class that Dodge pulled, but Dawaylon Cook had Utah, WVU, and TCU offers, Dunbar held AQ Conference offers, and James Hamilton did as well to name a few. You can take a look here: https://northtexas.rivals.com/commitments/football/2008 Heck, Mccarney's 2014 class had players with solid offer lists, and a lot of those guys committed before the HOD Bowl and even before the season. Mccarney didn't want to put the effort into recruiting. Anyone involved in recruiting will tell you how little they saw of North Texas at DFW high schools during his tenure. His dual-threat QB comp was Fran Tarkenton. He was completely out of touch and thought his name actually meant something to high school kids. That's why he couldn't recruit well most of his time here. Good recruiters can sell kids on their program. It has been done here at times. If you put a coach who can recruit here, there's no reason why he wouldn't be near the top of the conference in recruiting. Littrell has time to figure it out, and he really needs to.

He has officially been removed from the roster. Was on it a couple of days ago. Looks like we're set for 2017-2018

Well done, Mr. Brett Gemas. Thought it was cool to see New Denton in a basketball graphic.

I never said that or implied that. Literally just stated facts. After you mentioned Hamilton and Bussey, you said "Just because we were the only ones smart enough to offer a player doesn't make them FCS level players." The structure of your post implies that we were the only ones smart enough to offer Ladarius Hamilton and Rico Bussey, which was not the case. Especially when placed next to two players who were. Just making sure that fact is not lost.

Hamilton was offered by two other FBS schools and Bussey was offered by eight other FBS schools.

It took PJ Fleck two 8-win seasons, followed by a 13-win season and 4 straight number one recruiting classes in the MAC to go from Western Michigan to Minnesota. It took Matt Rhule two 10-win seasons and the second best recruiting class in the AAC (behind Herman and Houston) to get him a P5 job. Willie Taggart won 10 games in 2016, won 8 the year before, signed the number 1 class in the AAC in 2015, consistently recruited well, and had previously turned FBS startup WKU into a winning program. And he was far from the first choice at Oregon. Jeff Brohm won 30 games in 3 yrs at WKU, including a 12-win undefeated conference championship season, and decent recruiting (#3 class in the conference in 2016) to get hired by Purdue. Finally, Tom Herman won 22 games in 2 seasons at Houston including wins over Oklahoma, Florida State, and Louisville, who had the heisman trophy winner. He also turned heads nationally in recruiting, while signing 5-star DT Ed Oliver and the number 1 class in the AAC in 2016. That obviously got him the job at Texas. And that's the extent of the coaches who went from G5 head coach to P5 head coach last year. So based on that, Littrell is a huge uptick in recruiting plus about 20 wins over the next two years away from having a resume that resembles these guys who made that jump.

There's a very specific reason why that is. It's because the word "commitment" typically holds their spot in a class. And when schools are limited to 25 spots, often have less like in our case because of blueshirts, and will only sign a set number at their position, and push for commitments earlier than they ever have each year, this is the result. Kids aren't just born inherently less men of their words than kids who were recruited in the 70s and 80s. The difference is, for those kids the recruiting process didn't really start until after their senior year was over and signing day was a month or two away. There wasn't time for decommitments. Now even G5 schools push for commitments during a recruit's junior year. Like you alluded to, these kids are often too immature to really make a decision like this (as if 18 year olds are much better in that regard). Plus, when you get this far out, there are more variables that factor into this decision which can change (i.e. Family situations, coaching changes, other offers, prospective major, etc.). This is how it's going to be as long as coaches recruit as early as they do, and they kind of have to or they'd get left behind. That's where we are now.

Each recruit individually is not liked, disliked, or preferred by the fans solely on offer lists. The fans who talk about offer lists, that is. But those fans (myself included) get concerned when we see commit after commit choosing us over no one else. Not necessarily because that player individually is going to be bad, but because the evidence suggests that we are limited to mostly recruits with no other FBS schools going after them. In your post it sounds like you prefer Martin over Brin. The concern is that in these cases, the player we get is not dictated by who we prefer, but rather it is dictated by who other teams leave for us. That's the concern. In this case, maybe we like Martin more. I care less about offers with QBs because fit is such a huge factor at that position. But across the board in recruiting, if who we get is dictated more by who is left for us than who we prefer, then we are putting ourselves at a huge disadvantage. That's where evaluating using offer lists comes into play, not for determining which recruit we prefer.

Helped us with Jordan Murray

Good call. Forgot about that

Jordan Roberts Hunter Gieser Punter Austin Mcgehee was as well, but it sounds like he is no longer in the fold.

It's 2017. Teams don't dump commits for just a torn ACL anymore, and haven't for a while. One of my teammates picked up all of his offers while recovering from his torn ACL. Especially if it's just the player's first torn ACL.

I think this is our guy, based on what JayD has posted