PlummMeanGreen

I think we'd all take the ranking and the Pub, but it would have been more legitimate if it had come from a national recruiting services that spends the entire year ranking HS kids across Texas and the USA. We buy into way too much fluff at UNT and I have been as guilty as the next alum, but our losing to the OOC schools we lost to last season sorta' tipped the scale and hinted to many of us that its not the Big 12 we need to be worried about recruiting against, but rather the Tulsa's, the La Tech's, and get ready for SMU this next Fall (who beat the #11 ranked TCU Horned Frogs last Fall). Seems the Mustangs and the Mean Green have begun to switch roles here in the Metroplex. If this program (under present leadership) were realistically aimed toward gaining Top 25 rankings (and had recruited as such) then many of us who have sorta' used the last 8 years as what we think to be a pretty fair barometer of what we can expect the next few years would have no problem with current leadership, but I don't see much difference in this recruiting class than the last 3 or 4 and it was those classes (along with DD's coaching style--yall remember Dickey Ball, right, or do we seem to forget about all that this time every year?); anyway, it was the last 3 or 4 years of recruiting that gave us the worst home loss in our school's history which would weeks later be topped with key losses to La Tech and a new SBC school just out of 1-AA, ie, Florida Atlantic U. (BTW, I think we have some pretty damn good talent already on our football team, but we seem to be lacking in volume of such talent). So I think most NT alums/Mean Green fans don't worry about recruiting against the Big 12 at all, UNTMike81*, but rather the schools we have to beat on the recruiting trails to get the talent so that we can beat the 4'th ranked CUSA school in future bowl games. And (once again) after 4 years in a row of bowl games for NT under present leadership, we were still (in any of those 4 years) nowhere close to smelling a Top 25 ranking such as the MAC's top football schools seem to have no problem attaining every year. Its just that we seem stuck at the same ol' level that the last 8 years at UNT suggests that we are not ever going to get out of. I know many of us wish we could say (or even hope) other-wise, but most of what we've seen of late (8 years?) will probably keep many from changing their minds on this particular subject. I don't think it would be asking so much that we of UNT should expect any less in Denton than what Mike Price is presently delivering at UTEP (and in a much shorter amount of time to boot than what we're getting). After all, this is the micro-wave era we live, so 5 or 10 year plans to get your football program "Top 25 worthy" would be something that few school's leadership in today's NCAA D1-A would tolerate. Only wish it were that way at one particular Sun Belt Conference school located in the northern part of the Lone Star State.

I believe as I recall years ago looking at a similar photo in a "Yucca" (former name of NT yearbook) that that opponent may have been Cincinatti. Only thing is I think it was raining during that entire game from what some "old timers" have told me. }:>)

So do we now need to inform the Dallas Morning News, Fort Worth Star Telegram and Houston Chronicle that we really don't need to have even one player listed on all their "AREA" lists (which is about what we have) to make ESPN's Top 20?!?!?!?! LOL! (Sorry, but ESPN has come up with something that smells just a tad fishy here). AND........ are the same people who put this ESPN recruiting rankings/polls together the same group who put together Chancelor Lee Jackson's "non-skewed" alumnus opinion poll that seemed to put the subject of NT varsity athletics on the back-burner? You all will remember that from LJ's office which probably about 1,000 from GoMeanGreen.com (alone) sent back to his staff with each of us most likely posting the equivalence of a master thesis on the subject of the importance of athletics as the picture window to our university? So one might then surmise that polls can sorta' say what you need a poll to say--you might say? .

Maybe a different slant on all this, but I wonder what Dickey would have been able to do with Fry's 1970's teams or............what Fry would have been able to do with Dickey's recent teams? }:>) Sorry, fella's, Hayden Fry wins this one in a landslide. Wish some of you young gun alums could have seen the man in action (without today's Denton/Denton County population or UNT's present huge enrollment AND..........not anywhere near the facility resources our present regime has. Fry had to do much with less and he danced with what was given him once he arrived at UNT. AND.............Fry did "NOT" get on the radio (or his weekly TV show) for 4 plus years running and complain about what he didn't have in Denton and for damn sure Coach Fry would never diss the very people who supported his football program, either. In fact, Coach Fry knew you by name after he met you one time and he made you feel pretty damn special whether you gave the Mean Green Club $.05, $5 or $5,000. There really was much more to Hayden Fry than merely some high profile wins in Mean Green Country. Many of us have wished he could have come at a much later time in our football history--like, uh..............well, you know.

Thanks for this important part of NT football history, eulesseagle and Phil... Hey LongJim, that Arkansas team in the 1968 photo with our Mean Green would play your Texas Longhorns for the NCAA National FB Championship the next Fall. Of course, we Texans all know who won that one, now don't we? }:>) That photo of the 1968 NORTH TEXAS/Arkansas Razorback game (which we "barely" lost & yet to another bad SWC referee call according to our good friend the late, great Ron Shanklin, God rest his soul); anyway, all this just more prime examples of where we have been with this Mean Green football program "3" different times in the modern history of NCAA football. All the aforementioned high profile competitivess is also just where we need Mean Green football to be once again very soon, without the delays that obvious favoritism shown by some NT leadership toward selected NT athletic personnel is preventing such advancement OR...........petty campus politics and huge ego trips from some NT employees or officials who won't be around here in 10 years to even give a damn about what they left behind. <>*<> Some of that group won't give a damn their first 10 minutes off the UNT payroll and we all sorta' can guess who some of that group would be. Many NT Exes and posters on www.GoMeanGreen.com (and well beyond) won't be content until present University of North Texas leaders get all their "Eagles in a Row" to give us leadership that will give Mean Green football a realistic and legitimate chance to regain our past "higher profile" football glories to get us back in the mainstream of NCAA D1-A. Such glories that a school with our enormous (and growing) constituency deserves; and especially in this new millenium where marked progress from high profile successes of our past would ordinarily be the expected norm by any collegiate constituency. Such Mean Green football success that actually began with the Abner Haynes-led Mean Green football team of the the 1950's leading to the Mean Joe Greene era of the 1960's, the Hayden Fry era of the 1970's and a few scatterred successes in the 1980's and 1990's. So we do have a proud football legacy at UNT to uphold for those who think otherwise or those who would try to tell you that we don't to suit their agendas.

Sarcasm duly noted, Coffee and TV...}:>) And if we aren't shooting for the same things Mike (Top 25) Price of UTEP is shooting for, then just what is it that we are shooting for in Mean Green Country? We all know how close to the NCAA D1-A Top Twenty Five 4 bowl games in a row got us, right? We just cannot be reloading or re-tooling this football program just to merely get us back to where we were, folks, and from all appearances, it appears that we are doing just that. We have yet to capture the imagination of most of the regional and national media and (it seems) Texas HS football recruits as well. Something is just terribly wrong with every part of this picture we have going on in Denton now, yet when will NT's leadership dare to examine what it is and then do something about it? We as NT Exes and Mean Green fans absolutely deserve no less than what UTEP has been getting with their football program (and theirs coming in a much shorter amount of time than our plow mule approach seems to be doing).

You know, when my "Great Gettin' Up Morning" day arrives for me (hopefully when I'm in my 90's) and I look back at my top 5 Mean Green football games of all times, I really do hope that I won't have to include that 1988 "loss" to the Texas Longhorns. Many of us on this board were at that 1988 game (remember those were the days before Mack Brown arrived & when UT gave us sideline seats); and, yes, it was a good, well played game, but good golly miss molly, lets move on and get this football program out of the doldrums of where beating the 4'th place CUSA FB team in a bowl game is our only nirvana and do things "now" that will create good future memories of actually winnning some of those kind of games such as that one back 1988 (and games such as those we most always seem to lose). Maybe La Tech could teach us a few things on how to seal the deal in those high profile games since they've done it several times. Our bowl win (out of 4 recent tries) over Cincinnati was a good win in 2002, but Cincinnati as a football school is no University of Tennessee, either. That 1975 NT/Tennessee game (and Mean Green win) will always be at the top of my list for the time being, but I also hope one day in the future when I pick my own Top 5 Mean Green football wins that the one against the Vols will fall way down on the list to #5 (or lower). Truly, I would really like to think that when we all think of our favorite moments with this football program that we will not have to keep going back to last century to come up with those favorite memories. Of course, NT will have to get out of this "we po' but proud" defeatist attitude for us to get back to the mindset that we can play (competitively) the mainstream teams of NCAA D1-A while beating some of them occasionally (and we ain't nowhere close to that kind of mindset as recent history will prove).

Good post, GrayEagleOne... ..................................................................................................... REVISED/UPDATED (with corrected spelling) FOR TUESDAY/JANUARY 10'TH.......................(Dont read this manifesto if you have hypertension problems--in fact, don't read this if you have potential hypertension problems). In fact, some of you---don't read this at all, because you are probably too far gone with DD Ball and UNT staying at the top of the SBC (but at the Bottom of NCAA D1-A). ...................................................................................................... I knew this would turn into some semblance of a popularity contest based on emotions and "feel sorry'isms" for Dickey but what the hell, he says this is what he gets everyday in Denton anyway because he works here everyday, right? Is that really his quote? How many of you, fellow Mean Green fans/NT Exes had those same "feeling sorry'isms" for DD when he was burning yours, our MG fans and NT Exes buns non-stop on radio broadcasts for 4 plus years runnning (and with a Chairman of our NT BOR's apparently approving every bit of that uncalled for broadcasted to the Metroplex crapola because he never one time took the initiative to ever stop it)? Nice little country club environment we taxpayers seem to be supporting up there in Denton these days, eh? Ask one of our coach's whose been up there 17 years and is still under .500 if she would ever apply for another job (since other higher profile schools have never seemed to inquire about her) with all the little or none expections expected from her in SEVENTEEN years, folks! }:>) (Does this make you all feel confident of NT leadership when this kind of thing is allowed and then they budget millions and expect us to give hundreds of thousand$ to every year)? BULLSHIP! ANYWAY..........even when the Green Brigade (once again) strikes up "Happy Times Are Here Again" assuming DD has brought this thing "all the way back to the top of the SBC/Bottom 10,"; anyway, even then we are still not going to be anywhere close to smelling Top 25 rankings and just what can we base that on you might ask? (See next paragraph).................. ? ? ? ? How about in 4 bowl trips by NT that we never in any of those 4 trips not one time ever got close to that elite NCAA D1-A level that they call Top 25? Usually if your school's football team goes to 4 bowl games in a row, you'd think even in just one of those 4 years a school would be getting pretty close to gaining Top 25 status, right????...........Not ! ! ! ! AND...............if we are not shooting for Top 25 rankings at UNT, then.....................what the hell are we shootin' for? LOOKING FORWARD TO & SHOOTIN' FOR WHAT YOU SAY? At Mean Green Club Med doesn't it seem are we just merely all about even more DD Ball and: (1) "Always" 15K+/- per home gave average because all the new, casuals or borderline fans can't get enthused about DD Ball to this day which keeps us at that 15K +/- per home game average--EVEN AFTER 4 FREAKIN' BOWL GAMES, FOLKS)? (2) Do we have more totally unnecessary (at our level) contract extensions to look forward to which now has us land-locked into having to accept SBC mediocrity when we could be doing better with fresh new direction; (3) Now we even have "Discipline Gone Wild" from some NT players (and now even some NT staffers atttacking NT Exes/Mean Green fans verbally)--can we look forward to even more of that? Some of it I think we can. (4) Better Havana cigar imports for cigar-chompin' and "DD NT career continue'er" Bobby Ray, (5) Invites to an elitist social or snob-fest led by "private schooled" Chancellor Lee Jackson (creator of "basically" skewed public opinon polls which will for sure be made to suit his personal agenda (which is mostly UNT-Dalla$-----------BTW as all of us who graduated from ol' Main campus observe what should be our Big D monies now diverterted away from Little D (and probably a future new football stadium if truth be known); AND...........with ol' CJ the "non Phd" Judge himself, you know, the King of Stick Figures or Branding at UNT? Is this all we really have to look forward to every year now at UNT? (Well if so, can you say........B-O-R-I-N-G or even...............'see ya' later, NT State)? ? ? ? Well, quite frankly, Top 25 still sounds more intriguing and something a hellvua' lot more worth investing into that will have more far-reaching results than anything we presently have going on in Mean Green football. (See NT recruiting lists for example or "local" Top 50 or 100 lists--we are being duped, folks, while our Nero plays his fiddle and smokes his Havanas). Question still remains as to when do all those in high leadership positions at UNT finally grow some gonads, grab the bull by the horns and just step out now to make some important (timely) decisions on all this charade that has even fooled a few on this message board? Have our top leaders at UNT even forgotten to look at their Special Edition copies of the 2005 NT Football Media Guide to see what the real facts will tell them? What will they do when they finally see thru the the green-tinted shroud of thick fog? AGAIN all you Doubting Thomases (who really became one of the good guys even after his own personal doubting): But again, read your 2005 NT Football Media Guide and simply see who we lost to (insert sublimenal 1-AA schools) in most our bowl years and then come back on this board and tell the rest of us all this is worth perpetrating yet another year or 2 when we could have a fresh new start toward (finally) building something that will land our most deserving football program into Top 25 rankings (not just at the Top of the SBC and being nowhere close to the Top 25). Are Top 25 rankings only resereved for non BCS schools like UTEP and TCU here in the Lone Star State? I don't think so and I'd bet you don't think so, either. This is all so very simple to see if one will only take the green-tinted glasses off for a few minutes and merely take a closer look at all this, but I'm sure we've all been guilty of stumbling over simplicity at one time or another in our lives, too.

All such happenings, Dallas Green, has to be looked at and approved (or disapproved) by the NT Board of Regents (usually led by its chairman). If our own NT Board of Regents (who know whats going on on any Game Day) don't call people on the carpet over such acts as Ramone Flanagan pulled with Silver Eagle, that (basically) means they don't seem too alarmed with such acts with some of the very constituency they'd like to support UNT with their butts in seats and financial donations annually. If we do have such a pro-athletic Board of Regents at UNT (as advertised), then they need to start doing others things in the area of personnel to help this ship go forward; that is than just approving facilities to be built that are merely allowing us to keep our spot reserved at the NCAA Division One table (and that be 1-A or 1-AA) because we are still to this day behind in football facilities and have been most my adult life. Unfortunately, now at UNT we seem to have a "private school-like" elitest kind of bullying leadership and a "to hell what the UNT constituency wants" elitest attitude coming from our leaders that we have never had at UNT and all this seemedly beginning when we were delivered a Chancellor who has 2 degrees at 2 private universities (and still no Phd). I don't think all this will continue to play well in Denton and in due time for those who would like to continue to persevere all this, it will eventually come back to bite them in the butt (if they are still around). But we all know whatever the fruits of their labor are, all of us most assuredly will be left behind to taste that fruit whether it be bittor or sweet, now want we? Sadly and most ironically, Darrell Dickey is one of the most unpopular "successful" coaches I've ever witnessed, read about or even heard about in my 40 plus years of following NCAA college football. It is an amazing story where there is such a unique relationship between a coach and much of its local fan base. You'd think some high ranking officials at UNT might eventually start asking questions as to why things have degenerated to this level , except I think they fear they will get plenty of the kind of answers they are (still) not willing to listen to that might even force them to start thinking about making some personnel changes. Time will take care of all this eventually. Some of our elect will just have to let all this play itself out (and I suppose with our NT officials approval just completely bottom out) so we can begin to eventually build a foundation that will allow us to reach Top 25 status. We do not have that kind of foundation today in Denton. What is also sad to me is how I don't think in today's NCAA D1-A football any non BCS school like UNT can ill afford to throw even one season away (which would be 2 for us if 2006 proves to be a bust) just because some on our campus are still deferring to what they perceive to be success in our football program; strangely enough, though, a success that no local, regional or national media outlets (outside the PollyAnna'ish Denton Record Chronicle) have yet to recognize, least of all a success that still hasn't gotten our head football coach even one job interview at a higher profile NCAA D1-A school. I wonder why that "no high profile job interview scenario" (alone) doesn't seem to be some sort of red flag for UNT officials? None of this just really makes much sense and I supppose NT leaders are just going to allow all this to hit rock bottom before they make any bold, decisive decisions on matters that would not be difficult to make at most all the other NCAA D1-A locales or outposts.

BTW, Bill, did you ever receive an "official" apology over "The Incident" yet--just curious. I'm not sure if Season Ticket Holder ever got one, either. The thing about coaches who want to get out of their non BCS surroundings is that they (obviously) don't do it going to non BCS bowl games 4 years in a row. I think Hayden Fry got his invite to Iowa and the Big 10 because his Mean Green football teams had beaten quite a few "some-bodies" (high profile name schools) and FWIW, he also had a known name commodity working for him when he first arrived at UNT, too, and that didn't hurt his cause at all. If DD ever wants to one day get out of his present surroundings, all he needs to do is recruit the kind of players who can beat the traditionally known schools that show up on our OOC schedule most years. No, I don't think we expect upsets over Top 10 schools (although playing them a bit more competitively would be nice0, but beating an Air Force or Tulsa or La Tech would be quite helpful for DD (in more ways than none). I'm probably even talking about DD beating a team ranked higher than the 4'th place CUSA team who the SBC FB champion hosts each year. The NT coach and staff have had some good recruits on campus in the past and the even do now, but the volume of good recruits has obviously been much too low the last few recruiting years as to allow our team to even be competitive against schools like Tulsa, La Tech and SMU. That huge record-breaking Tulsa loss at home will stick in the craw of many Mean Green/Eagles fans for years to come IMO. The results we got in that Fouts Field home opener last season were hardly expected (to say the least). In fact, I'd say most of us were shocked after the final seconds of that game ticked down to zero to be quite frank. The TU loss also served as a pretty accurate barometer or reading for things that some of us on this board had closed our eyes to in our recruiting of the last few years; then, the La Tech loss pretty well confirmed all that we had concerned ourselves with what DD & staff had (realistically) been doing in the local and regional recruiting wars of the last 3 or so years.

HSO........ Maybe if Coach Mills had publicly (verbally) attacked one of our NT Exes in the stands, then just perhaps he could have saved his job? Did UNT officials sweep all that under the carpet just like they did the other public verbal acosting of one of our fans? My guess is that they did. Any head coach (like some bosses) can spin anything aimed toward any employee to appear in a way that may not even be close as to the way the situation really is. Have any of you ever heard of any football players (at any level) running off a football coach? I'd say if NT alums can't (for the time being) pull this off, then for damn sure a small group of football players can't run off an assistant coach. Personally (as I've heard many of you make the same following comment in the past) I hope the next UNT AD will do like the last 2 (including Helwig) should have done and just clean house in the NT Athletic Department as to give us (remember us-----the NT constituency?) all a fresh start in our attempts to remove our alma mater's ".500 and below'ish" varsity athletic sports programs completely out of the muck & mire and the Land of Mediocrity. IMO, Rick V could still do much of this except I think he has been land-locked by his silent business parter/AD Mr. Ray who would veto much of what our present AD has more vision to see what will make NT successful in athletics than any NT Board of Regent ever will. NOTE: Although, after such a (proposed) cleaning of the house by our AD, I think there may be still be a small handful who may want to re-apply for their old jobs, but not the ones who have grown barnacles (at our expen$e) and whose programs are still under .500. <>*<> I know, such a thing as the aforementioned probably cannot legally be done at a state university (although I've seen such happen out here in the non-academic business world), but just the idea exhillerates some who can actually look beyond our SBC noses to see that there really can be better times ahead in Mean Green Country, but FWIW...............its always going to be about in demand personnel with talent and charisma who usually can pull such a thing off (at a higher profile) in a program such as ours at NORTH TEXAS. BUT FOR THE TIME BEING.............I don't think any of our present top NT leaders have those kahonas to do any of this, so we may have to just wait for the Governor of Texas to give us such leadership who will. Also, keep your eyes on our "unaffordable to UNT" pink elephant, ie, UNT-Dallas with the monies that will be raised for that campus (and whatever that amount) monies that should have been being raised for UNT-Denton all this time? Someone explain to me when those monies start, uh, rolling in for UNT-Dallas why that same money (any of it) was not raised for our main campus in Denton in years past, OK?

SUMG, seems we have a gestapo-like intellect now that is (and has for the last few years) come from within certain areas within the NT Athletic Dept. Hell, I hear they even subtely threaten present Denton Record/Chronicle sportwriters if they start telling it like it really is in feature articles. Seems I heard that these threats aimed at DRC writers come by with-holding information; that is, they won't give DRC sportswriters THE BIG SCOOP if they persist in writing feature artilces that tell it like they feel many of us out here also see it, so what we get for the moment with the DRC is tantamount to Andersen's Fairy Tales, uh, Mean Green style. At any rate, it seems we also had one very fine, talented DRC sportwriter a few short years ago who our NT campus-based gestapo-like group pretty well bullied and had run out of town because he dared to write what he saw as the cold stark truth about NT athletics, specifically football. I think we all know that the truth cannot be suppressed forever and for Mean Green fans, all they need to do is simply read their most recent copy of an NT Football Media Guide to see which 1-AA schools we lost to even during most of our bowl years; and most of that group of schools who are now members of the Sun Belt Conference. An NT FB media guide has very much interesting information for those who will take the time to read it.

Man, that Tulsa game...........hmmm, still in mend mode over that one (and LTU, of course). On the upside, it sure can't hurt any non-BCS school's recruiting when you have the current NCAA FB NC on your schedule no matter how that (OOC) game will be approached from our coach's standpoint. Write off the Longhorns, put the check in the bank and look forward to what SMU will be dishing out to us the next week after we play UT in a Metroplex matchup. }:>( Folks, when you have one program (UT) that has about a $60 million athletic budget versus our (approx. $14 million?), you are going to see some tremendous talent differentials. Like one of you once posted, it will be our All District recruits versus their Parade All American or 1'st team Texas All State football players. The part of all this that bothers me much more than losing a game to a Top 10 football program is how the gap between the BCS and non-BCS is getting even wider as the days goes by. Check out your state top 100 lists for verification of that. All this another reason UNT must do things to keep our hands in play at the NCAA D1-A table. We are famous for being "snail-like" slow on doing all the necessary things that could better our football program (with most of our attempts to get in better conferences such as CUSA as a prime example of that--among others that have been thoroughly discussed recently on this forum). Still, our most essential need is to find some way to build a new major college football stadium that we will also be able to put a solid and bonafide Top 50 NCAA D1-A football program in once finished. I fear (and have since its beginnings) that the UNT-Dallas campus and their local "DFW donor" financial needs with such DFW donations that may have (ordinarily) found their way to our main campus in Denton with its many needs (both academic and athletic). So, this may be a problem with our meeting that 2009 time-table to finish a new FB stadium at UNT; but hopefully, that will not be the case and something is in the works. We will also have to have NT leadership who (themselves) go to the next level with all this by going even further outside the usual box at UNT while making key decisions that will give our alma mater a realistic chance to become (at least) a Top 50 NCAA football program. Ex NT head football coach Jerry Moore was absolutely right on when he said he didn't want Appalachian State to even think of going to NCAA D1-A unless its leaders dedicate themselves to provide the facilities and budget to (at least) get in the Top 80 of the other 117 or 119 official members of NCAA D1-A. (Anyone know if its 117 or 119 because I've heard both, but ABC TV's Keith Jackson said 117 the other night on the UT/USC telecast0.

Hey UNTLifer, thanks for at least putting my moniker with some pretty decent company, ie, the University of Texas. I watched the USC/UT replay tonight and I'm sorry, I still get excited when I hear half the Rose Bowl (2,000 miles away from the heart of Texas) singing "The Eyes of Texas" which is a song I learned as a kid before I probably knew there was a UT. I did vote for "our fans anger toward UT" since I didn't think it would be very humble (or fair) for me to cast a vote for myself. {:>)

Good post, GrayEagleOne.... I think there will be others available besides a Rick Neuhiesel or a Gary Barnett (who I would admit might even be a gamble since best I know the NCAA has not exxonerated him of anything just yet). I only used Rick Neuheisels name as just one example of a coach with a known name commodity. Anyway, I think there would be more "name ID" type coaches available in the future for any non BCS school to consider hiring who feels that person would hurdle the kind of obstacles that boggs lesser known coaches down for years, and to catapult Mean Green football to a Top 25 level much sooner than later. Again, I defer to Mike Price of UTEP who came into El Paso with a dark cloud over his head, yet Price's name ID alone gave the Miners instant credibility as well as pre-season Top 25 rankings (and UTEP is a basketball school we're talking about here). As far as Rick Nueheisel, his name was mostly used as an example in this part of this thread and this "what if" discussion. GrayEagleOne hit on some themes of a "name ID" coach that you who are only used to what we've been getting at UNT the last 2 1/2 decades might have to see firsthand to believe. UNT as of now (because I think we have way too many ego situations on our campus at the moment) has missed on what I believe could have been a golden opportunity to hire Hayden Fry as even a part-time (a la Gene Stallings) fundraising consultant because (after all) he was both an AD and head football coach here in the DFW Metroplex for close to 2 decades and that man knows more of the rich and famous in DFW and Texas than the last 5 NT head football coaches did added together. NOTE: For you who saw Hayden Fry in action at Fouts a few months ago in our nationally televised ESPN game with Troy got a fairly quick glimpse of that man's salesmanship abilities. UNT just needs to keep all of its options open and have a contingency plan in place in case we do need to make changes in the future for any positions of a high profile nature that may open up at UNT

JUST RESPONDING: So Mike Price was a gamble at UTEP? He hardly came in as a choir or alter boy if you will recall. I will say part of what you said in your post that you said you will take you'll come pretty close to getting in the Fall of 2006. The info on Neuheisel was given to me by one on this board who has done his homework on the coach as far as his name having been cleared. Do you have some new info on Neuheisel you want to share? good_ken, might you have also said (back in the day and I don't know what era your from, although I'm guessing the DD era because of your low expection'ish-type comment of UNT "NEVER" being able to get a high profile name football coach like Neuheisel in the future); nevetheless, might you have also said the same thing right before we signed Hayden Fry to a contract at NT? How far all this has fallen with all the low expectation (and some of our best fans not really expecting much because at UNT don't we always have "our backs against the wall"-- an attitude that has been generated and persevered from within our campus is (probably) the saddest part of this whole scenario IMHO. Also, all this low expectation from some of our best fans is even sadder than our present situation with a few (un-named) NT employees (who just may not be at the right school at the right time which is also preventing and delaying our eventual advancement at UNT and forever more getting out of all this low expectation philosphy.

Good post, ADLER... I think most of us might agree that UNT has grown (and is growing now) because of its strategic location at the apex of a north Texas population center that the NTCOG (North Texas Council of Goverments) says now has 5.6 million citizens within 1 hour of our UNT-Denton campus; and therefore probably hasn't grown so much because of who has been in charge of our university in recent years. We seem to have leadership at this point in time who seem to have no concept (whatsoever) of the importance of good public relations with its very own constituency . Our Chancellor's private school education (degrees from SMU and Duke with no PhD) caused some from the beginning to try to understand why NT BOR Chairman Bobby Ray thought that man with such an academic background would be a good fit (or hire) for the 4'th largest public university in Texas which once again, would be a university that was going to grow even if Quasi Moto had been in charge. I feel the many departments within a university take on the personalities or attitudes of its leadership and at UNT that begins with mainly two, ie, Chancellor Lee Jackson and our NT Board of Regents Chairman, one Mr. Bobby Ray. Those 2 seem to be ram-rodding everything in Denton from how many paper clips each department can budget to a football program that has (in deed) dominated the SBC most of the time in football, but has had few other succcesses outside the SBC. Such successes outside the SBC of which 1-A football wins (sadly) could be counted on one hand during the entire 8 year reign of Darrell Dickey in Mean Green Country. Of course, lest we forget, another NT varsity coach has been given 17 years to still try to get to .500 in wins/losses--anyone else you've heard of at other schools at any division of the NCAA who gets this much time to continue to be (at best) a bit above average (some years) with many wins over non-NCAA D1-A schools)? <>*<> So here's one New Years Resolution for some: Should all those who want some very nice Texas state benefits and retirement packages start faxing resumes' to the human resources department at the University of North Texas today? }:>) Most outside the Denton Record/Chronicle and Denton, Texas, America, would never tell officials of the College Football Hall of Fame to start preparing any space in their hall for any future new members that would be coming from our campus, with all the under-whelming results we've seen outside the SBC/Bottom 10; unless, that is, they have a section in their fine hall on "hiring bloopers and blunders." If we all look back a couple of decades, we could give them a whole bunch of material from Mean Green Country for that section of their hall if they had one on that subject. Yet, we do know how to hire effectively as to keep our program from avoiding any semblance of Top 25 status in any of our varsity programs while keeping us (somewhat) solidified with other scavengers toward the bottom of the NCAA D1-A tank. I think some present NT leaders should (hopefully and soon) start feeling some kind of embarrassement over who (under their watch) they continue to hire (and keep); that is, those who have even fooled a few of them with bottom rung success. NOTE: I swear I know 10 people on this very message board who (even as novices) couldn't do any worse, that is, compared to some of our leaders who approved all athletic hirings in Denton the last 10 years and beyond; and for certain those very same 10 from this board wouldn't allow a handful of non-North Texas people ram-rod such hirings as was force-fed to all of us by a couple or so from the "pre-Bill Snyder" Kansas State U connection and that's for damn sure. IMO, UNT is in dire need of bold, decisive leadership who can identify our personnel problems and then solve them by making the appopriate changes--not next week, next month or next year----but now. Most any novice can study the trends or directions of most any NCAA college athletic varsity program as to know what is really working in context with the division of the NCAA it co-exists; also, a varsity athletic program that is showing itself to be effective with its alumnus or fan base and that based on who is showing up for its events (comparative to other "progressive" NCAA D1-A programs) and who gives out of their pockets based on what they see as a varsity program's direction. We seem to have no definite or steadfast direction at UNT as far as our alma mater's setting of goals to be successful in the 119 member NCAA D1-A other than that that we have as a member of the Sun Belt Conference. Except on this message board or forum, have any of you heard anyone else connected with UNT in an official capacity talking about aiming any of our Mean Green varsity sports programs to Top 25 status? The answer to the aforementioned question should be the "tell tell" or big red flag that confirms that we are in dire need of making many changes at the University of North Texas and even if those changes start within those who govern our very school itself, ie, the NT Board of Regents. This group of Texas governor-appointed officials have had no problems annually rubber-stamping low expections pf UNT football in Denton, but such low expections which many I've known for more than a few years will hardly continue to approve (or accept) as alums much longer (even if at all now). Some on this board merely want Dickey to get back to the top of the SBC which means to a growing number of us of UNT only getting back to the Top of the Bottom (of NCAA D1-A). That all may have been fine before when even our prior Big West membership showed us all just how far behind we really were, but (ironically) our successes in the SBC now seems to be showing a growing number in our constituency just how unsuccessful we really are in context to the other 119 schools that comprise NCAA D1-A. It is a most unique situation we find ourselves right in the middle of in this the Darrell Dickey era at UNT where success has been defined in so many different ways by so many different alums and fans. At most other NCAA D1-A outposts (outside the SBC), success can very clearly be defined, but at UNT and our being part of the SBC, what the definition of success is can be about as different as night and day among many in the Mean Green Nation. Most of our constituency will still eventually get around to seeing (if they haven't already) what our school's athletic successes are outside the SBC is really what matters and because that is what the local, regional and national sports media measure us by (and thus a reason many of that elite group would hardly call Dickey Ball a raging success albeit is with a handful on this board, our campus and a few beyond it). The varisity sports wins we do get at UNT that seem to salve a hardy handful of our fan base seem to only be against schools either in the SBC or schools that are hardly in the mainstream of the NCAA division we co-exists. So in closing, it seems fairly obvious that the NT athletic program (specifically football) is (basically) going nowhere fast as to the level where many of us who've been around this for a few decades thought it would be by the year 2006 BUT...............as they say, the beginning of a new year is also a great time for change.

Well for starters, you don't start to look for a head football coach with someone who was an offensive coordinator for "one" freakin' year at a school (that many of you feel will now beat us in September) and that same coach who was a journeyman assistant college football coach before he had that one big year as an offensive coordinator. Again, this was a bloodless hiring coup at UNT in the first place (with no UNT people given any say on any of this that was considered); and it was a coup that took place because of 2 Kansas State U alums, ie, DD's dad and Craig Helwig. I think most of us will be more than satisfied when we finally lose our "pre-Bill Snyder" KSU connection. I've heard many names mentioned who could succeed Darrell Dickey. You know, if UTEP can step up to the plate and hire a Mike Price type of situation, then I think UNT can most likely more than do the same. Start with Rick Neuheisel who has been completely exonerated of all that he was alleged to have done (which wasn't even related to his coaching of football as I recall). We hired Johnny Jones who came into Denton with a past that was also cleared by the NCAA, so this would not be a first for UNT to step out on faith in doing such with someone who has been (unfairly) tainted with allegatioins of wrong-doing. Rick Neuheisel? Well, seems one day we replaced another failed bid of a college football job in Denton (Rod Rust) with a guy named Hayden Fry. Boy, I cannot believe the level of thinking that all these years of low expectation and disguised successes of the Dickey Ball era even has some of our alum's modes of thinking in terms of low expectation. Is all this sort of a trade off? You know, DD doesn't feel he can win OOC games while some (not all) NT Exes don't think we can do much better than Dickey? DD is still under .500 after 7 years for a reason and maybe that is one prime reason that 4 bowl trips has yet to impress anyone else except those who think beating SBC schools is their idea of a college football Utopian existence. If DD is such a hot potato item with a hardy handful in Denton, why isn't he anywhere else in college football? Many on this board (and beyond) will still defer to the fact that 4 bowl trips have yet to get him even "ONE" higher profile NCAA D1-A job interview. A $64,000 Question: Will UNT one day also put a coach who will have been under .500 his whole tenure as Mean Green head football coach in our NT Athletic Hall of Fame? If so, shouldn't their also be asterisks placed besides each bowl year that indicates which future SBC schools (who were all 1-AA at the time) beat UNT during most of those bowl years? DD gets his 3'rd try next Fall to get his first win over Florida Atlantic University. My guess is that even if Schnellenberger doesn't have equal talen, he will still outcoach our staff to get them their 3'rd win in a row over the Mean Green. What is being posted now, shaft, is to insure that our NT leaders know that some out here don't have their heads up their arses on all this and know what DD Ball has done for UNT in the eyes of the national media (like can you can say...........ZILCH?; and we sorta' want our NT Board of Regents to know that not everyone thinks this "shooting fish in the barrell" SBC/Bottom 10 we're a member of is hardly the barometer of future champions and Top 25 rankings. Our Board of Regents (and I think we most always mean its Chairman, Mr. Bobby Ray, in these threads) may all be in for a big surprise when all this really starts to get heated concerning Darrell Dickey. I really think it has the potential of getting pretty ugly if NT leadership wants to play Big Man on Campus and challenge the masses on all this. They may need to be reminded and reminded quite frequently that there are many more of us than them. As they say, its a numbers game and numbers at UNT do not need to be decreased because of poor athletic management and offering our fans something they've realy seen enough of and don't want to much longer. Still..............in over 40 years of following college football fairly close, I've never (for the life of me) seen or heard of any head football coach's job such as the one we're getting and are right smack dab in the middle of with DD's 7 years (going on 8) at UNT. I think its a lead pipe cinch that any school in the NCAA will never pattern what they are doing in their athletic future using NT as their model. FWIW, they'd be pretty damn crazy to even think about doing such.

Sorry, a glitch here.

Just another sign that our school seems to be taking on the personalities of its leadership with much of that leadership only wanting to hear from those who they line up and from that group who will say what they want to hear. Remember that farce of a a survey from our Chancellor? Of of almost 2,000 who are registered on this board I'd bet we would have represented a fairly nice bloc of "like-minded" NT Exes who emailed back to Lee Jackson and his survey many things in the "comments" section that were very, very, very pro-athletics. Maybe I read the results of that survey incorrectly, but athletics didn't seem to pan out too well from all that I saw in the chancellor's survey. So perhaps a case of LJ not even wanting to get most of the "pro athletics" emails but rather he delegating those to some of his assistants who probably did some very effective filtering of all the ones from all those crazy NT athletic "fan"atics). }:>) Again, I don't like all this elitism that now seems to be coming from some of our NT campus leaders most of whom don't even offer their personal email addresses for the purpose of communicating with those they sure want to give a helluva' bunch of money to NORTH TEXAS. Still amazing how even some of that group (NT Regents) are probably only involved with our/their school because they were appointed by the Governor of Texas. Some of you have mentioned how even the key NT regent (the chairman) who many of us cannot for the life of us ever remember ever seeing at Mean Green football games for most of the last 4 decades. In fact, many of us never knew who he was until after his appointment by the Governor. And now he is suddenly the main cog in the wheel, ie, the primary decision-maker at UNT and (obviously) the one responsible for force-feeding what many NT Exes and Mean Green fans no longer want in our annual Fall football diet. }:>(

Amen, Stan R...

HoustonEagle, I am at a loss on what kind of master thesis I could come up with on the "yes or no" origins. LOL! Seems I always stumble on the simple things of life! }:>( POSSIBLE GAME PLAN FOR THE READING OF AN EPISTLE? If you choose to read any of them at all, read half in the morning and the other half at bedtime (with a warm glass of milk). I guarantee with those 2 together a restful night of slumber. }:>) GOD BLESS TEXAS!

Well, I am watching a good movie while posting all this. But you're right, it is late (or should I say, uh, early)? BTW, what the heck you doing up reading all this; although, some have told me that reading my epistles or manifestos have even helped some of their sleeping disorders. That makes me feel sorta' good (and useful). GMG!

REVISED AND UPDATED @ 8:54 AM, Friday, December 30, 2005: ................................................................................................... Unrelated to the subject at hand, but one fellow NT Ex of ours said something to me a day or 2 back that really hit me sorta' funny and I paraphrase him: "Coach Fry in our national televised ESPN game vs Troy back in October said more positives about UNT and Mean Green football in a mere few minutes than Darrell Dickey has in 8 years. ................................................................................................... Yet any NCAA D1-A football program that has gone to 4 bowl games in a row should be averaging well over 20-25,000 plus per home game, but we still have hovered around a bit over 15K plus per game (another low expectation) and that after 4 bowl appearances, too. School officials at most NCAA D1-A outposts would call such attendance after 4 bowl games in a row a definite red flag, but at UNT, we reward it and tell our fans how great life is (in the SBC/Bottom 10). I rant/I rave because Mean Green football has been a passion of mine since September of 1973 and I just don't like what I (and others) are presently seeing with some in our NT Athletic Dept. who (for whatever reason) think they are giving us something so gol' darn unique and special; that is, that they are giving us something we've never seen or had? Let me clear my throat now and give you all my best Norm Hitzhges giggle! Granted, we didn't have bowl games in the Fry era because the Missouri Valley Conference didn't have a bowl tie-in. If the old Mo Valley had had bowl tie-ins you would have then had several Mean Green football teams even before Fry came along, ie, those NT football teams from the Mean Joe Greene era who probably would have gone bowling a few times. Why not, the Joe Greene era Mean Green football teams had about 10 future NFL'ers with (I think) about 3 or 4 from that group who even went in the NFL's 1'st round. So what hath Dickey produced that others could have produced (but probably more grandiose and at a Top 25 level) under similar circumstances such as our being in the worst football conference in NCAA D1-A? No one can blame DD for our being in the SBC, but we can ask questions as to "why shouldn't the leader of the SBC (whoever that is in any year) expereince Top 25 rankings even as what many on this board have (in previous years) called the "lowly" Mid-American Conference, ie, the MAC. If this latest rant/rave is making a few of you most sensitive types a bit tense, you might want to stop reading this post right now. Won't hurt my feelings at all, actually, but you will be taken out of the will! {:>) NORTH TEXAS during the Fry era chose to travel on a much tougher football road than the (bowl-less) Missouri Valley Conference was ever going to give us, and a MVC that was on the eve of also losing Memphis, Louisville and Cincinatti who would be replaced by schools that make it look even like the present low profiles of most of our SBC schools. Since hindsight is 20/20, we can argue till DD grows hair or the cows come home how smart or not so smart it was for us to leave the MVC in the first case, but I assure you that 99.9% of our constituency in Mean Green Country at that time saw it as a golden opportunity for UNT to move up to the next level football-wise. I recall some newspapers applauded the move because back then in Texas, it was still varsity football that was the engine that drove your school's train). Our first year out of the MVC seemed to impress others, as UT AD and head football coach Darrell K. Royal partnered with Hayden Fry and the 2 several scheduled games for the first time in history. Back then, we also felt that the premier of the new Super Pit would help us overcome anything we would lose by dropping out of an ever-changing MVC as well, but in college basketball at that time many will recall there were fewer invited to the Big Dance, ie, the NCAA Tounament and major indenpendents with no prior basketball successes, prior good reputations among the Eastern influenced media and with NT's annually weak varsity basketball schedule were the main reasons we were not invited after a few 20 plus win seasons. UNT didn't play the toughest basketball schedules during the Super Pit's first few years of operation, either, AND.............. if truth be known (and I always try to make sure the truth as I know and interpret it from what I saw in 30 plus years of all this Mean Green business). Certainly, there are other interrpretations of the truth from others that will differ from mine (& thank God we don't all agree on everything which makes this board most useful/sometimes even fun), but I think many from my era (and before) might agree that I am more on with my perceptions and descriptions of Mean Green athletics than not. On the other side of the coin, I am usually on board with most of their observations of how they see the truth of the way things really are in Mean Green Country, too. Yet as far as UNT playing a major independent football schedule beginning in 1974; anyway, the results of all that gave UNT enough regional and national acclaim as to where we had a head football coach that even a SWC school and Big 10 schools coveted (and then with one of those hiring Fry away from us). Nothing wrong with that, either, because one who creates such attention that an SWC school and a Big 10 school were noticing usually means such a coach was doing some fairly significant things at the position of head football coach of which people (outside Denton) recognized and respected both regionally and nationally. As much as we may not want to admit it, we are just not getting similar respect at any geographical level (regional or national) unless Rice has put DD on their interview list which I am going to highly doubt))............and worse, not even any recognition or respect on a national stage after 4 bowl appearnces. Many college football fans and media types outside the Denton Record/Chronicle, Denton and DFW would have to ask the question of "what is wrong with that Mean Green picture" as no one seems to be giving UNT any respect. (Ya' think SBC membership, losing 3 out of 4 bowl games and the last 2 of those to CUSA's 4'th place team might have had something to do with that). For sure, I don't like "ranting" on this theme (once again) but I am trying to see what 4 bowl games has gotten Darrell Dickey in the area of job interviews at higher profile NCAA D1-A schools? For whatever reason, it still has us hovering a bit over 15K per home game and that (alone) should be about as much a Red Flag as some would need in Denton, Texas, America. If even more truth (as I see it) be known, I really do think after our Cincy' bowl win (helped out by a whopping 500 Cincy fans that hardly inspired the Bearcats to play inspired football that night AND...............those 6 interceptions by their QB); anyway, after that win over a non-Top 25 school, I really believed back then that Dickey and his gang really thought they had bought their ticket out of Denton and onto some higher profile opportunty, but as we all know that was hardly the case. So one might assume that others outside Denton and the GoMeanGreen.com Nation have also done their own research and read what we has turned some of us around on all this by merely reading what our NT Football Media Guides shows us in 3 inch headlines. <>*<> In closing on this latest rant/rave: What still really bothers me were the NCAA D1-AA schools (most of whom are in the SBC now) we lost to during most of those bowl years should have been a pretty big hint to NT leaders of today that we were not aways the best team who could have hosted that bowl game? IMHO, those 1-AA losses is the part in all this that not too many on this forum (especially those on the NT Board of Regents chaired by UNT alum Bobby Ray); anyway, no one seems to ever want to acknowledge those losses to 1-AA schools in all of these discussions of the Darrell Dickey "bowl era" at UNT. Did any of you (2 seasons ago ) kinda' feel like we were a counterfeit $20 bill when FAU came to Fouts and handed it to us (and our knowing even on that Game Day that that school would be an SBC member the next year); yet we still represented the SBC in the Big Easy that same football season? How did you assimilate or even digest that scenario in light of our being a bowl team in spite of our loss to a future SBC school who was still 1-AA? Has DD had a few footballs bounced his way? I think he has in a most uncanny sort of way, but I also think there are few now who will buy anything else he delivers to us at the same prior levels as he has in previous years any longer. To quote eullesseagle, I am afraid DD has (in deed) already had his APEX as the head football coach at our alma mater. One more perceived truth that I fear is this: Just how is all this going to play come next August when seasaon ticket sales begin? We don't have the luxury of some of our NT Athletic Dept. staffers who one could hardly classify as public relation dynamos helping in that area, either. Too many Mean Green fans now seem to be onto all this because of what we've pay to see the last 5 years at a low level of expectation and now we even drama in the stands now aimed toward long time Mean Green fans. But after the **SMU/UNT game next Fall which I don't think will draw anymore than the TCU/UNT game at Fouts did (23K?) a few years ago; anyway, if SMU hands it to us like many of you feel they will the 2006 football season could go south very quickly. With that in mind, I hope NT officials will even now (& privately, of course) start their list of possible new head football coach candidates anticipating a scenario that could be for our school's football team an 0 & 5, 0 & 6 or even an 0 & 7 W/L start in 2006. Also, just in case Mean Green fans post SMU game (and highly possible loss) just start showing campus leaders the silent treatment at Fouts Field; and I think we'd all agree that empty seats at Fouts Field can tend to be very silent. ................................................................. ** I have the entire 1990 UNT/SMU game at Fouts Field on DVD that will show some of you young gun alums that SMU probably had no more than 500 of their fans who showed for that game (and that includes the SMU band). SMU may bring more fans next Fall (not much more/ask TCU about that) as they are now the Metroplex football program with momentum and we are not which already has created a groundswell of even more who have become doubters concerning the direction of our alma mater's football program under present conditions. This will be a tough sell this summer. >>>> We could all only hope that those NT officials who keep rubber stampin' all this on an annual basis are on the 2006 NT football season tickets sales committee so they can see (firsthand) the fruits of their labor.<<<< But I still say our SMU game at Fouts does not draw anymore than our TCU game (23K?) did a few years ago (and we had a better football team than we will at the beginning of the 2006 season). Of course, during that Denton-based game, the Horned Froggers outplayed (and outcoached) us in that matchup, too. Whoops, Silver Eagle, are we allowed to say those dreaded words, uh, "out-coached" anymore at "OUR" alma mater? }:>}

Of all that has been posted on the subject of what we can most likely expect with a football future with Darrell Dickey in charge; anyway, if the NT Board of Regents and their chairman (or any one of their associates who might even mention this post by GrayEagleOne to any of our Regents), still of all that has been posted, I really wish it would be this one aforementioned post by GrayEagleOne that will (hopefully) be read by each and every one of our NT officials thoughout the UNT System because it really expresses the scope and the seriousness of the situation for many of us as we find ourselves annually in at the bottom rung of the NCAA D1-A ladder (SBC/Bottom 10) and his posts really represents just how many in our UNT community feel about all this with Dickey Ball (and have for more than just one football season, too). Low goals and low expectations for Mean Green football and those who will be satisfied with only getting back to that level (if DD is still around to even do that) is just not what the majority of us have had in mind thru the years and decades for our alma mater's football progarm and one that is at the NCAA D1-A level. For those who would accept the same ol' things or even less under DD, for the life of me I have to be curious and ask the one word question...................why? If there are 119 NCAA D1-A schools (and there are exactly that), are any of our Mean Green elect going to continue to be happy with a DD-led football program that will have us (in most years) being ranked somewhere in the #90 to # 119 mix of NCAA D1-A? FWIW, and for those of you who say its offense that sells football season tickedts, has our NT offense in 8 years under Darrell Dickey ever been ranked any higher than #80 or so among the other 119 schools?