PlummMeanGreen

I know, a big request and probaby a shot in the dark, but if any one of you has (or can get) access to a 1964 NTSU YUCAA yearbook, in its opening pages is a most interesting photo of an NT Band Day (with an entire football field full of bandsmen or, uh, bandpersons:)); but even more interesting than all the bands is the enormous student crowd that this 1964 photo shows on the east Fouts Field side. Anyway, if any of you or someone you know can scan this photo on this thread of GMG.com, I think many on this forum (and beyond) would enjoy seeing that most interesting photo and part of NT athletic history. Thanks in advance...& HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY!

O.............K................................... It is my understanding that schools whose football teams annually rank in the Top 25 have fewer of these parasitical problems which gives us yet another reason to start aiming higher.;( I knew it just had to be something like those little critters that might have been involved with all this and even in Denton; and in what will be a fresh, new conspiracy theory that will most likely materialize because of the above link which has brought all this to the surface as well as all our awareness. Hmmm? (We sorta' do need some new subjects on this board now don't we?

I agree that the main edge we have had during the Dickey Ball era was due to the fact that we were in a brand new league of schools none of whom had been all that successful in football and if they had been, it was at an NCAA D1-AA level. You are right on, meangreendork, inasmuch as all the other schools who have been brought into the SBC are most definitely improving themselves, while many of us wonder if we will ever beat 6 year old football program Florida Atlantic U while DD is at the helm in Denton. He has his 3'rd shot at FAU this Fall and at Fouts Field (where we first lost to Schnellenberger's team). Plus that first loss to the Miami-based football program was during a bowl year and is the very reason many of us now put the rewards of a bowl game as SBC football champion into its proper perspective which is something we probably all did our best to avoid doing back when we were getting beat by future SBC schools who were classified 1-AA the years we even went to some bowl games. All that is at the top of the list and the very reasons as to why some have used the terms "veiled" or "disguised" successes of Dickey Ball. .................................................................... Those of us who saw Hayden Fry's teams play some pretty darn good football and be quite competitive against mainstream NCAA D1-A football schools may have (at times) slighted some of Corky Nelson's best teams (who one season beat about 3 SWC football teams if memory serves me well).

Most everyone by now is in the process or has pretty well chosen what direction they are going to take this summer and the upcoming new academic year with all this concerning DD, ie, such as decisions on whether they will continue to enable present NT leadership with the continuance and perseverance of all this under DD that has us completely land-locked toward the bottom of NCAA D1-A and all that even during a run of 4 bowl games. BUT............I keep picking up comments on this business of "telling DD face to face" about our concerns with NT athletics from other posters and I really don't know what that has to do with the price of wheat in Russia? Seems all those promised "face to face" quarterly meetings were discontinued not because of any of us, either, right? Few of us will change our minds about DD at this point and thats whether we tell it to him face to face in his living room, his office in the NT Athletic Department or on this message board. We know NT officials from all over campus read this board and they should read it, because it is a pretty damn fair microcosm of what NT Exes and Mean Green fans feel about things concerning NORTH TEXAS--whether that be pro or con on whatever the subject. NOTE: Even Bill Gates said he regularly reads his company's equivalent of GMG.com because he wants to know just exactly what his employees are saying about MicroSoft, their jobs with MicroSoft or even what they are saying about him. Gates said he's even made changes and adjustments based on his company's blog and all the grunts who have posted various things. BUT FACE TO FACE, YOU SAY? Well...............it seems many of us also do recall that Darrell Dickey did not exactly choose a "face to face" forum with all of our NT Exes and Mean Green fans when he (for the last 5 years running) made all those sarcastic and condescending radio comments directed straight to the hearts of the very ones who he regularly gets his pay checks from and to those who have supported this athletic program much longer than any of those presently on the NT athletic payroll will ever be allowed to stay--at least we think so on that part of this equation. So a few of you young gun alums don't let a free keg of beer or a pat on the back from the UNT head football coach prevent you from keeping your own eyes on the eventual prize we of every era of UNT all want and all that that transcends any one individual on the NT payroll. ******* There is no one I know of who thinks DD is some kind of an ogre or a monster. Most know he is a good and decent family man as well as a church goin' sort of man as well; but (once again) all this is not or has never been about those kind of things, but merely the opinion of a growing number of supporters who think DD has simply bitten off more than he can chew at UNT and that he has taken it as far as he is going to take it. With that scenario, isn't a coaching change the next (normal) progression at any other NCAA D1-A school? AND.................All should merely look at where this program was ranked among the other 117 schools of NCAA D1-A even during or after each of our bowl years. Even all of last summer's unprecedented (for UNT) national pre-season publicity that Patrick Cobbs, Jamario Thomas and the Mean Green received did not get us one pre-season Top 25 vote. That alone was a matter of deep concern from many that our Mean Green football program (even after 4 bowl games) is still getting zero respect from most of the media and more important, all the Top 25 poll voters with Darrell Dickey as our head football coach. Lest we all forget, though, we are still on the same side in all this with all our hopes for a progressive football program that will start eventually showing us the kind of momentum we should already have set in motion and then...........lest we also forget this, too: We all still stand up and sing Glory to the Green when the Green Brigade strikes up our school song during the pre-game on Game Day at Fouts Field.

Uh, "Metromess" ? ? ? ? ? ? Good one, Jack...(but unfortunately very true). Bet you miss those daily drives to your former job at the Jimmy Dean Sausage corporate offices, right, Jack? ............................................................. After getting schooled by several TD's by the La Tech Bulldogs last Fall (who finished about 3'rd or 4'th in the WAC was it?) I think its obvious that they do play their football on a much higher plane than (to quote La Tech'sters about our league) the Sun Belch.;( In the opinion of many, though, we do have other more pressing needs before we even worry about what league we eventually land in (if any); although, I do think the SBC will be home for quite awhile longer for UNT, but even with that in mind, lets bloom where planted, but do it at a Top 25 level.

To quote some song lyrics of the great James (I Feel Good Like I Knew That I Would) Brown: "PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! The lack of success of Darrell Dickey shouldn't be surprising about 99.9% of many on this board (and beyond) who wanted him gone after the ULM loss 6 years ago, right? What if Rick V would have had a chance to show his head football coach hiring skills with a Dennis Erickson-type hire (a la Idaho's new hire last week) if he had been given that choice after that ULM game? If that would have occured, might have UNT had more than just one good recruiting class (which you sorta' have to do annually at an NCAA D1-A level to keep the wheels of your football program turning); what about our 4 bowl teams that could have actually been ranked because of a high profile hire such as UTEP got with Mike Price that "only" gave the Miners some Top 25 rankings in just his 2'nd year in El Paso? I know, "If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas." (a Monday Night Football quote from Dandy Don Meredith) ...................................................................... The only real surprise to me with all this is the non-success of NT head basketball Coach Johnny Jones. He would have been my odds on favorite of all our most recent head coaching hires of recent years to be the one who succeeded and one who succeeded at a much higher level than that of an SBC competition level. (Will UNT baskeball ever be able to get past the 1'st round of an NCAA basketball tourney or is that honor for other schools but not the one located in west Denton, Texas, and the one near those 2 Texas interstates)? It baffles the best of our alums who follow Mean Green basketball almost religiously why basketball at UNT just cannot seem to get out of the starting blocks after a few good seasons under Bill Blakely back in the 1970's. Amazingly, the time old yet ageless Super Pit is still as good a basketball venue as many, many schools have in NCAA Division One across the USA. (Anyone don't think SMU would trade Moody Coliseum or TCU their Daniel Meyers Coliseum for the Super Pit in what would take about a New York minute)? It's just not the best of times for NT athletics as we still seem to have only one varsity coach above .500. And just not sure why another NT varsity head coach was told in a recent Fort Worth Star Telegram feature article that she will get yet another contract extension (UNT leadership's seemed favorite past time in Denton) to add onto her present 17 year career at UNT. Can any of you also visualize that we will in our future probably have 2 NT varsity coaches presently on staff who will probably one day be voted into the NT Athletic Hall of Fame with neither who will have above .500 W/L records? Wonder if this type of thing happens at other Texas NCAA D1-A athletic programs? My guess would be that it's not. And as far as the favorite past time part, I also wonder if some of our present group at UNT who are taking us to most unusual levels of so called success; anyway, I wonder if any of this group have looked into taking square dancing lessons, ballroom dancing, fencing or any other recreation and leisure activities rather than finding ways to extend contracts to those who will never reach .500 as long as they reside and work in Denton, Texas? I don't understand all this rewarding of short term success at UNT with these contract extensions, either, while not seemingly looking at cumlative or overall W/L records? If you look at Ms. Slinker's 17 year career at UNT, you'd probably very quickly recognize that even many of her wins are hardly against the kind of schools NT Exes exactly have in mind for bragging rights and the kind that few would really call good bell cows as far as how to measure a coach's true effectivenesss at UNT. And forget her post season successes as they simply do not seem to register past 1'st round games, which is even further proof that we might be the easiest push-over of an athletic program for average talent to be employed in all of NCAA D1-A AND.............with their not having to do too much to keep on getting extended contracts. Jeez! Is the State of Texas retirement and benefits package all that great for NT athletic staffers who get to hang around in Denton for awhile (no matter their W/L records)? Not sure I can remember such a level of seemed satisfaction from NT campus leaders who have such low expectation of performance for our UNT varsity coaches; in fact, can any of you other NT Exes who've been around all this for awhile remember such an era as the one we will hopefully (soon) see coming to an abrupt end in Denton, Texas, America?

Well, I heard just last week that we could have possibly added a 12'th game in 2006 that would have had an approximate $800,000 pay-off (which I didn't realize gate guarantees were so high these days); but if that would have been the case, one football game pay-off such as that (even minus the expenses) would have gone a long way in helping to buy out DD's contract. Although flyonthewall says our coaching is most un-creative (which many of us would totally concur with his assesment on that subject) our UNT administrative leadership can be "VERY" creative when they need to get funds together such as those that would be needed to buy out DD's or anyone elses contract at our main campus. After next Fall, DD will have only 3 seasons left on his contract if it is (in deed) suppose to end in 2009. One very high profile NT Ex also told me there were even some loopholes that could end DD's contract w/o hardly any additional expenses for UNT. He did not specify to me just what those loopholes were, though. Our UNT leadership doesn't seem to recognize that our present Mean Green football program will ever be accused of being one that is presently swimming with the mainstream NCAA D1-A sharks. Sadly, they even seem almost content with the results they have been getting of late; after all, it has been that group who are extending all these coaching contracts to those not even close to .500 with their W/L records--not any of us. We also seem to have a Chancellor who must think he is leading a private university system with some of the attitudes we are already getting from his own little hit squad such as the NT branding group with their (already) well documented and almost pompous attitudes along with one of their mis-directed emails to a GMG.com poster and with one of our branding committee prodigies having the gall to say: "We don't have to answer to anyone on that board?" But if NT leaders don't realize by now that all is hardly "quiet on the northern front" inasmuch as some of our alums just seem to think we can do better as we have on a higher profile in the past (and in due time, we will do better). It's just that we might have to have an entirely different set of NT leaders with the testerone and gonads similar to the leadership of the University of Idaho (Vandals) who just last week stepped waaaaaayyyyyyyyy........... outside their usual box to hire a new football coach who even has an NCAA D1-A National Championship under his belt, and that being the great Dennis Erickson. **** U of Idaho may have very subtely and indirectly helped our cause at the University of North Texas with their high profile hiring of Dennis Erickson. NOTHING PERSONAL: A few may not be able to fathom that the criticism focussed on our alma mater's head football coach's performance record is hardly a personal attack on the man one Darrell Dickey; in fact, it is not anything even close to that at all. It's just all about what the record book shows us and what the present momentum of our football program is in context with those in NCAA D1-A we'd like to (once again) think we can be competitive with for the most part. FWIW, I too, have been on the payroll of a job where the job and I simply did not have that special unique chemistry which makes for a good productive job whereas both parties (employer AND employee) were satisfied with the way things were progressing. I'd wager that even some of you may have had similar career experiences in past years. But after 8 years (going on 9) and a taking a closer look at what our football media guide says loud/clear, in plain black and white and that publication showing all the reasons we are in our present state or low-standing among the other 117 schools in NCAA D1-A. All this after 8 years (and even during or after our 4 bowl game run) which clearly shows to those who choose to acknowledge it that we are simply not moving up the D1-A football ladder and that's even when we win games against the SBC/Bottom 10 (and go to bowl games). It has been frustating for all of us to see the MAC's best football schools almost annually get Top 25 rankings, while the SBC's best (NORTH TEXAS) for most of its history has only garnered a few scattered votes here and there spread out over 4 the 4 years of our 4 bowl games. Even before last season when we had all the natinal pub with our 2 running backs, did any of you seen UNT listed for any Top 25 considerations with even just a vote here and there? A BIT OVER-SIMPLIFIED BUT............All this just adds up to many now thinking DD and UNT just need to party ways, ie, shake hands and part friends with (preferrably) a mutual understanding of why that should happen with no hard feelings from either side (if that at all possible in today's American workforce). Of course, things usually don't work out quite as simple as that, now do they? In fact, too many times lawyers get involved with such separations at some outposts. But for many, this has always been about which DD-led football teams have been playing and beating (or not beating) with the overall results no matter what they are on the scoreboard still showing our alma mater's football program being absolutely and totally land-locked at the same level it was (I think even lower) than it was when DD first arrived in Denton. ARE WE GOING TO START SWIMMING WITH THE MINNOWS @ UNT? One national recruiting service has our 2006 recruiting class at the bottom of the barrell in NCAA D1-A. At most D1-A school outposts, the respective leaders of all those schools would see such things as all the aforementioned in the last part of this post as most definite red flags, but what UNT leaders need to now concern themselves with is just how soon all this will start turning into red ink in Mean Green Country. So....................is one person on the payroll really worth all that at a school that is in the present position such as the University of North Texas is with its athetic program? I think we'd all agree that no one employee is worth such a sacrifice in the work world that you and I are part of every work day of the week, now are they?

Well, since KingDL1 brought this "lost thread" back to the top today, I will respond to those who say the aforementioned numbers posted by eulesseagle don't mean anything to them and to some of that group many of us would ask this question: Why don't those numbers mean anything to you? Do any of you know any of the NT constituency who want to annually give $250, $500, $1,000, $2,500 and more to help fund and enable those who are just hunky-dory being bottom feeders? Those of us who have been involved with NT football as alums for most of our adult lives do take those kind of numbers eulesseagle has posted most very seriously. I don't understand why we are supposed to continue our loyalty and to keep enabling those who keep these kind of numbers a-comin' at UNT, either. There is a time to be loyal, but then there is a time to just admit things are not going upward and/or forward or things (in general) are really not going to improve and to just cut our losses and move forward with something different for a change.

A new football stadium will give us choices we don't have with Fouts Field. It will also raise the ante of our being able to get (and more easily fund) a Dennis Erickson/Mike Price-type hire in Denton, too. BUT..........FWIW, what have we done different at UNT (lately) that would cause CUSA to covet our school as a member? What we are building at Eagle Point Campus are what many of the other schools we'd be up against for CUSA membership already have. While we still talk about a new football stadium at UNT that will happen someday in the sweet by and by in Denton, Troy U already has (basically) a new football stadium to point out to CUSA officials and they are certainly in the CUSA footprint. They have also beaten a Top 25 school in that new stadium before a national ESPN TV audience. Who have we beat similarly (or of note) lately? A few of you have even told me you feared there may be 1 or 2 other schools (and even an additional SBC/Bottom 10 school other than Troy U) that CUSA could possibly choose over UNT. And don't forget, we have a huge local hurdle to overcome and they will open our 2006 home football season at Fouts Field with a football team that beat 3 bowl teams last year of which one of those finished very high in the Top 25. What have we of UNT done of late (or ever) that will change the minds of those who reside off University Park's Mockingbird Lane?;( Lets somehow defy all the stumblingblocks we have created for ourselves in Denton and somehow & someway..........build a new football stadium at Eagle Point Campus. That would be the first step which may enable us to get to the next step which would be a better conference.

WITH SATURDAY (1-11-06) REVISIONS: NOTE: For you who worship Dickey Ball, SBC/Bottom 10 success and don't seem to think Top 25 rankings are intended for schools like NORTH TEXAS..........you probably don't want to read this manifesto, either). First of all, I think many of us would agree that a school like NORTH TEXAS could do much more short-term and long-term with a hire like a Dennis Erickson than what Idaho U will ever be able to do. Many of us on this forum are extremely indebted to and very glad that ex SBC member U of Idaho pulled this hiring of Dennis Coach Erickson off which was the very thing many on this board have been saying in recent weeks, months and years would be "The Impossible Dream" for UNT to pull off, you know, as in the high profile hire? And as another North Texas Ex reminded me just tonight, new Idaho Vandals Coach Dennis Erickson did win an NCAA D1-A national championship at Miami and not every NCAA D1-A school has a head football coach with such an accomplishment on their resume. WHAT DENNIS ERICKSON CAN DO AND DO IT FAIRLY FAST AS THE IDAHO HEAD FOOTBALL COACH: Interrpretation: Sure as hell won't take him 9 years to stay under .500 in wins/losses because that is only a feat that happens at the University of North Texas with its leadership who wouldn't know a good athletic hire if it came up and bit them in the A$$! (Once again, "WE" are the school who chose Dennis Parker over Dennis Francione as our head footbal coach--we have one helluva' poor track record in athletic hiring at UNT the last couple decades. YET............Coach Dennis Erickson will give U of Idaho, ie, the former Sun Belt Conference member instant credibility with: (1) potential recruits, (2 the local, regional and national media (3) their fan base, (4) their alumnus base, (5) both their large and small donors base, (6) their on-campus academic community base and... (7) ..............come this summer, just watch Coach Erickson give instant credibility (and probably he himself being most visible) during the Vandals 2006 football season tickets campaign while also giving his new employer instant credibility among the Vandal's curious, casual and borderline fan base of whom (IMHO) will make a significant difference at the Vandal's turnstiles this Fall. (8) __________________________________________(What did I leave out)? And after the results of this next Fall not neccesarily in wins/losses his 1'st year, but will be measured with a school that will start showing momentum with potential recruits PLUS record-setting attendance this next Fall on the Vandal's Game Day; also, just watch the University of Idaho start making preliminary plans for their own new on-campus stadium or stadium expansion. And just watch Idaho U emulate the Sun Belt Conference's Troy University as weell, that is, to be a school that doesn't sit around theorizing or talking about a new footbal stadium, but rather a school that will gets one built (while yet another SBC/Bottome 10 school located in the Texas rich "Land of Fortune 500 Corporate Headquarters" (DFW) still "talks" about what they are going to do. And every bit of the first sentence of this paragraph because of.................one......... simple........... high........... profile......... hire who will make less salary in 2006 as Idaho's head football coach than Darrell "Dickey Ball" Dickey does at UNT. ***** Now those of you who think DD will turn all this around in 1 year (or however many more Bobby Ray chooses to continue to give him to even reach .500); anyway, for you have suddenly become believers of SBC/Bottom 10 Dickey Ball style of inter-collegiate football at UNT; those of you who feel DD will take us back to the top of the Big 12, whoops, I mean't SBC/Bottom 10 and get us to a level that the term "Top 25" even becomes part of our vocabulary in Denton in only his 9'th year in Denton; anyway, are we talking about some of the same group who have been saying forever UNT couldn't afford a high profile hire in Denton....................................? Have some forgotten that we've done this before in Denton. Also, have some forgotten that that particular talent and UNT/Denton resident is now in the College Football Hall of Fame, too? Fact is, the right UNT leadership (who can see beyond today and past their noses) could probably find even more monies to budget a hire similar to Dennis Erickson's and do so much easier than Idaho U could ever have dreamed of doing. Don't forget, though, we are the UNT System and one that is building a complete new campus in south Dallas County (sometimes this century) with money to spare! (Sorry, couldn't resist that and that is all I will say on "THAT" subject)! LOL! Of course, all this going on in Moscow, Idaho, while we at UNT still have all our nice people on the NT athletics payroll who are still trying to reach that vaunted .500 plateau of wins over losses with a large number of years under their belts to have done so. GET THIS, SHORTY>>>>>>>>>>>I told a Baylor alum and Bear enthusiast recently how long we've given one of our NT coaches to try to reach .500 (like, uh, 17 years) and how this season of beating a bunch of non-notables will probably land her a contract extension and permament retirement in Denton with still...........an under .500 W/L record in Denton. The Baylor ex shook his head and while laughing said: "Well, good, we now know we don't have to worry about recruiting against NORTH TEXAS in girls basketball if that is going to be the best your school can come up with." AND...............to quote this oft' used phrase heard countless times on the Mean Green Radio Network in recent years, but (this time) with a different variation of sourts and that is: "We, the NT Exes/MG fans really do have our backs against the wall in Denton and you know how we know this? The reason we know this is because we go to football games at Fouts Field and witness what those who work there are delivering to us firsthand in the Bottom Quadrant of NCAA D1-A athletics." (You all really want to increase the MG Club membership this summer which will merely enable those at the top who seem to have no problem persevering all this at our UNT Athletics Retirement Home, folks)? ** Do we sacrifice the next 3, 4 or 5 years of MG football over just one more year of Dickey Ball over the whims of one particular NT official who (apparently) refuses to look at an NT FB Media Guide and what it would show him to be the real truth or reality of what has happened at UNT the last 8 years? (If he happens to pick such a guide up to read, he especially needs to focus on 1-AA losses during bowl years). ** Do we sacrifice the next several seasons over just one more season when trends show those who have the ability to recognize trends that we will never rise above the SBC/Bottom 10 (and for damn sure we can all ever forget a Top 25 consideration because of those now in charge at UNT)? ** Isn't 15K per home game averages after 4 bowl games somewhat a "tell tell" sign of what we have in spite of the following impressive numbers; that is, UNT's home county of (now) almost 600,000 population; Greater Denton now at 100,000+/- (and growing), UNT's enrollment now at 32,000 (and growing) and DFW NT Exes at around 100,000+/- (and growing)? And some of you still want to hire from within the NT Athletic Dept. if Rick V decides to get the hell out of Dodge before he gets any more of all this UNT athletic sludge and residue all over his own resume'? ** Do NT leaders know the difference when an athletic program has caught the imagination and attention of its constituency OR........... when it hasn't caught the imagination of its constituency? ** Do we really have to change our school song in 2006 to "Turn Out The Lights, The Parties Over" because we have a most benevolent and very giving group on campus who have no problem when it comes to persevering mediocrity with extended contracts? &&&&&&&&&& Folks, we really do have an amazing NCAA D1-A athletic management modus operendi or most unique style of leadership occuring at our alma mater with this present group of NT leaders. ...........Change is good when its time to make changes (like many think is the case at UNT right now), but then you make changes with better personnel; you know, kind of like the Idaho Vandals did when they hired Coach Dennis Erickson in the 2'nd week of February, 2006? ............................................................................ Nevertheless, a big Texas-sized congratulations to the Idaho Vandals on their huge hire and thanks for showing many (north) Texans who (some of us presume) think like someone from Rhode Island might (sorta' smallish?) that this kind of hire at a non-BCS mid major school can actually be pulled off. .............................................................................

The American Way, huh, Bill?!?!? LOL! I guess we have to maintain our humor now don't we? Bill, I can disagree and even disagree vehemently with any NT Ex and still respect that alum and do so because they are part of the NT community. I have pissed off a few people on this forum and know I have. Hey, even my late, sainted dear mother used to tell me: "Jimmy, you could make the Pope cuss on Easter Sunday!" AND SHE WAS RIGHT, OF COURSE! I would never dispute anything that lady would ever say. She is very much missed among our clan. I know you and Jack, i,e "Gray Eagle One" (who for about 4 decades I've known him, his wife and many of you about as long) are the same kind of alums who can "get over it" with disagreements when the time comes to do so. I admire the 2 of you and many others on this forum who have received emails from yours truly expressing my personal admiration for their loyalty to UNT (even if we disagree on things). Even if we just happen to agree to disagree at times, that still doesn't mean we can't all sit at the same family dinner table when the day is done. If we don't give a damn, we simply stop posting and that is not what UNT needs to happen with any of its alums as there (still) just aren't enough of us to go around who do give a damn abour our school. Yet, as Gray Eagle One said, we have to do what we have to do to make each of our feelings known with all this. Those will vary among our most diverse group. That "list" of people you refer to that I deferred to, Bill, are all IMHO playing some kind of role in this "B" movie we presently have playing at an NT campus athletic venue near you in what is the most media covered part of campus life that we have at the University of North Texas. Not even the U of NorTex College of Music's internationally famous, multi-Grammy Award nominated One O'Clock Jazz (lab) Band can even come close to receiving (on a regular basis) what NT varsity sports receives much of the academic year whether that be on TV, radio or the DFW areas major newspapers at the NCAA D1-A level--and that whether this program is winning or losing. Winning around these parts, though, always seems to take it all to the next level, media-wise, I do think we'd all agree. Losing and showing no improvement in context with the other 117 schools in NCAA D1-A, can very quickly take all this to the depths of utter despair and frustration (and with that I think we'd all agree). I do think fair is fair, though, inasmuch as any NT employee deseves an ample amount of time to prove (or disprove) themselves and after such a time if the trends they have set in motion with their leadership that would lead to our eventual higher profile success versus the mainstream of NCAA D1-A is showing no noticeable trends upward; if our attendance (which for the life of us all we just cannot seem to break the 15K +/- per game average in Denton; and even with that 15K number which used to be the accepted bare minimum to remain at the NCAA D1-A level AND..................anyway, that 15K per home game average is still a pretty good barometer of our success (or lack thereof) we have in MG Country year-in-and-year-out. For some reason, we are not gaining the imaginations of the causual or borderline MG fan, which are the ones we have to have to fill our venues in Denton. So what is being done to change all that many of us are now asking? We are not getting any answers to that question, either. As Harry "Give Em' Hell" Truman coined, "the buck stops here" (at his then White House desk) and so it is that someone at the top even at UNT has to eventually start answering some key questions or explaining their modus operendi in all this especially if things don't seem to be going according to Hoyle or showing progress as in context with the rest of NCAA D1-A. ****** At some point & very soon, we just have to stop using the Sun Belt Conference as our bell cow, because doing that hardly made us representable to CUSA as for them wanting us over Marshall, SMU, Rice, UTEP and even TCU in the past, now did it? At UNT, we have to do much better than the regional aforementioned schools or we will just merely disappear into Texas D1-A inter-collegiate oblivion and most of our NT Exes/MG fans are astute enough to know that. BUT THE QUESTOIN STILL REMAINS FOR NT LEADERSHIP: Just what are we doing to rise above most of the aforementioned which will help us get our of our present state of mediocrity (as compared to most of that group)? No one will change the fact that UNT is still a state-assisted university that has us, ie, the Texas taxpayers as an integral part of its day to day operations, so NT leaders cannot take on the same air or attitude that (perhaps) some Texas private university leadership have such a choice as far as how they communicate with their own private school constituencies. If ours have an elitist attitude, they cannot keep such an attitude for long as Texans will eventually start raising all kind of holy hell. Yet even at some given time, they will have to ante up some explanations as to why we seem to be content with the perseverance of our school's overall poor athletic performance outside the Sun Belt Conference. So just what are our leaders answers as to why NT athletics varsity teams have continually stayed (even in winning seasons) near the bottom quadrant of an NCAA D1-A athletic existence? We are all ears... and many of our growing army just feel they need to just wake up, smell the coffee/face the music check out their NT sports media guides so they can see the same things many more of us are seeing in plain black and white print. It is unsettling as to what some of the things an NT Ex can read in those media guides, especially the long endless chain of hirings that did not pan out in Mean Green Country. NO TEXAS BRAGGING FROM THESE QUARTERS: Many stand amazed at some of the arrogance of a hardy handful of NT employees and even toward their very customer base. Hey, if you really have it going on, filling our stadiums, fillling the banks accounts with donations, raising much needed "new football stadium" monies, actually beating "somebody" outside the SBC/Bottom 10 then................. just maybe an NT athletic dept. employee has something to stand on to show such an attitude. Still, most of us would like to think even if our employees were setting the woods on fire in Denton, that some of those comfortable paid state employees might still want to exhibit some semblance of humility and common decency. In fact, don't most Texans expect that; and don'[t we all sort of get that with most all our "raisings" down here in the Lone Star State? PEOPLE.........PEOPLE WHO NEED PEOPLE, NICE PEOPLE, SHORT PEOPLE, JEEZ! WHO CARES? You know, I think if we are keeping those on the NT payroll because they are just merely "nice" people, then we are in worse shape at UNT than previosly thought. I would think the "nice people" tag would be an expected criteria of being hired from the beginning at any Texas-based university. PLAYER'S COACH? HUH!?!?!? And while on this "nice" subject, whats all this "player's coach" business? That is also an amazing phenomena that takes place at some D1-A schools. FWIW, if a coach is one of 117 NCAA D1-A coaches, wouldn't most assume that if they are being successful and advancing their programs as expectted, that most likely they are all a, uh, "player's coach?" LOL! (Sorry, that concept always gets me gigglin' Norm Hitzghes-style). Yet when we at UNT start getting "nice.............but also "productive" people on our payroll, then these kinds of threads and posts will cease almost immediately and then we will start posting more things such as: "Why didn't we kick those Texas A & M Aggies' arses with a bit more intensity last Game Day?!?!?!?

Jack, what was it ex NT coach Bill Blakely used to say.........was it something to the effect of: "I've seen everything except childbirth?" Lets just let all this at UNT bottom out (if it hasn't already as we look at our varsity coaches W/L records across the board in recent years), then lets emulate schools like, uh, (to quote another poster's chosen word on Dennis Errickson thread), ie, "freakin"................Idaho................... go out get some proven commdoties, get some people who really want to be at UNT and show it by their actions (who also on a daily basis cease from doctoring up their resumes' and who (while at UNT) want to set higher goals than what we seem to have had of late and then find those who have the talent/abilities to understand the sports market our school resides, do something about that and then (in general) just take this program upward. And to the poster who started another thread suggesting we keep hiring from within the UNT athletic department, does it always make sense to hire those who might just keep on persevering what they've been part of for awhile as it is, or, being part of the kind of most unique athletic administration (at an NCAA D1-A level) that we've now had for the last decade plus pocket change)? This too shall all pass? Can't happen soon enough for many who are able to look past their noses to see what we are really getting in Denton and for a growing army of those who are a bit fed up with all the (apparent) inter-departmental dissension and the general non-direction of Mean Green athletics. So is it really as some have said, ie, if you are standing still at an NCAA D1-A level, then that usually means you are in retreat mode or going backwards? Looking at recent trends, it does seem to show we are hardly moving forward; in fact, are we throwing some decent salaries at those who probably need to be elsewhere at another NCAA leve or locale, and then such salaries that could be increased in Denton so UNT can finally go out and copy schools like, uh..............Idaho, for the higher profile hire? Do we want to the "9" or "17" year approach or plan of reaching .500 or do we of UNT want personell who can take us to Top 25 levels in only 2 years (like Mike Price of UTEP did)? Is all this so simple that NT leaders are stumbling all over themselves over the simplicity? Do they really know what most of their constituency sorta' wants and for damn sure does not want? Are we making all this much too difficult in Mean Green Country? In fact, just what seems to he the hold-up for them to give all of us what they themselves should also be wanting to happen in MG Country ?

Many valid points, eulesseagle...

Went for many years w/o NT coaches advancing themselves, but the group I am talking about moreso, ie, ancillery NT athletic staff members of which few seemed to better themselves in recent decades. (Isn't the reason for that fairly blatantly loud and clear)? Yet, most of that group back in the day just had the common sense to move on after being an intetegral part of an overall unsuccessful MG athletic program of which they were as big a part of (fundraising, marketing, attendance?) as the coaches who were delivering all this to Mean Green fandom. You all remember that era, too, right? As in back in the day when most our varsity head coaches were, uh, under .500 after given several years on the NT athletic staff to get above .500? Whoops! Sorry 'bout that, the aforementioned scenario seems to be happening now; but this present group seems to think they are giving us a Top 25-50 athletic program the way they keep hanging onto the Texas state teat (& 17 yrs for one of 'em who is still way under .500 at UNT--HELLO! CALLING EARTH! ANYONE ON CAMPUS LISTENING? Well, I think a Top 25-50 ranking is as much a fantasy as DD getting on the radio even one time w/o telling the world how bad things are at UNT (& he knows because he works there), how bad season tickets sales are (boring Dickey Ball?) AND DD telling all DFW area potential HS recruits (most of whom do have radios) how NT fans question his under .500 record with 5 OOC wins in 8 years. So most of us (even on this forum) would agree that instead of our having the Top 25-50 existence that some on campus must actually think they are giving us the way they all stick around (and are never asked to leave), but our being an annual Bottom 15 program is closer to the reality of our present situation in Denton and will probably remain so until massive changes are made). FWIW, even non North Texans or non NT Exes would recognize what our real problems are in Denton. ***********Would TCU, UTEP, Texas Tech, UH and others similar copy UNT's style of adminstration from the top as well as from each of their own athletic departments? Their constituencies seem to expect different results than many of our group do, many of whom have been brow-beat & force-fed a most strange style of management by those who won't even be around our campus in positions of leadership 10 years from today. That is 10 years from today to see what they hath wrought for those of us who will be around as the recipients of all that. But UCLA, Miss. St and Arizona St.? Who knows, maybe a whole new exciting era for North Texas football?!?!? If so, lets still try finding all those other 15,000 Mean Green fans who have yet to discover this new phenomena since they still don't show up for Dickey Ball (and, uh...........didn't show for Dickey Ball during or after 4 bowl years). For those of our elect who like things just the way they are, iee, SBC/Bottom 10, bottom quadrant of NCAA D1-A OR annual football rankings (winning season or not) which will have us somewhere ranked between #90 to infinity; anyway, those who fear change and are just "hunky dory" with what we have now, I don't think they have to worry about any dramatic changes with our present group in Denton). And one has to wonder if some on this forum would have a spin about Quasi Moto, ie, the infamous hunchback of Notre Dame with a description of him something tantamount to this: "Oh, he just has a little bump on his back, shouldn't really keep him from getting a cute babe now should it." Interpretation: Some seem to be making under .500 W/L records after years of employment at UNT just "a little bump" and hardly nothing ugly at all. FWIW and IMO, all the wrong people are leaving Denton. After all, if one has brain cancer, you don't solve such a problem as that by amputating a few toes and fingers.

REVISED WITH A FEW MORE THINGS TO PONDER UPON: But didn't last Fall's results (and very poor performance by both coaches and players) sorta' show each and every one of us all the fruits of our recruiting labor from the last 2-3 years when (in fact) those recruiting classes at NT were not classified as one of the worst by Rivals as this 2006 class has become? CASEPOINT: What if right now, you know, like, uh, today...........there were a Rick Neuheisel-type coach out there waiting in the wings wanting to revive his career (just like Mike Price of UTEP did) and somehow got word to the NT community that he would be interested in the NT job (just as Fry made his own similar intentions known back in the day when he was trying to revive his own career)................then would there be any objection from this forum (and beyond) for having such a high profile name come to UNT (just like Price did and not under the best of circumstances for him) and a high profile type hire who would be able to emulate what the Miner's head football coach did in 2 years at UTEP and such a coach at UNT getting our Mean Green football team in the Top 25 and back to the high road of mainstream competition among the rest of NCAA D1-A? And as you who are reading this highly possible scenario that one should never say could never happen (again) at UNT; anyway, might this type of thing cause some of you to quickly react with a "BRING IT ON--WHAT THE HECK WE WAITING FOR" type of response? AND IF THAT WERE TO BE THE CASE FROM SOME OF YOU...............THEN.........why such a clamor to hold on to what we presently have at the level we have it that has not in one year (of the last 8) gotten us within even smelling distance of the Top 25? Why always this talk of Top 25 from some of us? Well, if we are not shooting for that, then just what are we shooting for for our Mean Green football program? ............................................................................................................... THINK LONG, HARD & DOWN THE ROAD ON THIS ONE: So........if those prior recruited classes at UNT which produced last Fall's results are an indicator of things to come based on Rivals.com's very low ranking of the 2006 recruiting class at UNT, then might more then assume that we could really in for some very deep crapola in Denton, Texas, America in the next few upcoming football seasons starting in the not so distant future (like, uh, this September, for instance)? ................................................................................................................ Still, this goes much further than some of our elect seem to want to accept or realize; such as this possible scenario for the 2006 football season: What if the 7'th calvary does comes riding in for some of you who love Dickey "style" Ball and leadership, aren't we still pretty well going to get the same old stuff, that is, of being the best of the worst? Don't recent trends point to that? 7'th calvary on no 7'th calvary we can all still forget about Top 25 rankings as that would continue to be a pipe dream even as it was during our 4 bowl seasons. Hellsbells, you can forget about even getting Top 25 votes as SBC football champion with this continuously (accepted) level of football that too many of the NT powers that be seem to be quite content and have fully embraced as to where this is really all we deserve or need to be at UNT? WILL WE BE REDUNDANT ALL OVER AGAIN IN MEAN GREEN COUNTRY? Many of us just simply want more than being an "un-ranked in the Top 25" SBC football champion that gets beat by the 4'th place CUSA football team in a bowl game because FWIW.............haven't we sung that song already as well as been there & done that, too? So isn't it quite normal for fans at any NCAA D1-A outpost to want to rise above where they've already been?

And that statement, fellow NT'ers, coming from one who has been following Mean Green football since the 1940's. One who I feel knows his college football quite well and thru the years has also seemed to have been quite astute with all the goin's on with the NT football program and as to what works and what doesn't work in Mean Green Country as related to the football part of it. Sadly (and unfortunate for all of us) , I believe you are the the one who will be right on this, Gray Eagle One. I think many of us just want to cut down on how many years we will be in that hole, Gray Eagle One; and FWIW, that has been the main theme, gist and ultimate objectives of my own epistles of late. What is so wrong with many of our desires to see UNT leadership do what is necessary to eliminate or cut short some possible (& unnecessarily needed) bad years that could be on our football horizon at UNT? ALL THAT BASED ON WHAT ONE MIGHT ASK? How about being based on our recruiting of the last 3 years topped off by this 2006 class which was classified as one of the worst ones at an NCAA D1-A level according to Rivals; also, based on last year's W/L record with our poor performances against poor opponents; and in light of those who are coming back next Fall who were actually part of the problem last Fall. Those of us who have seen better performances (at a higher profile) we just don't want to accept less anymore (and our getting less seems to be what the doctor is presently ordering in MG Country and that because of the influence of our present NT leadership). Some of us also feel one of our top NT leaders cannot possbily evalute Darrell Dickey's performance with any semlance of unbiase because DD's family and his own even take vacations together. No federal offense with any of that albeit not a very smart way for an employer to interact with his employee because: Would you want to realease one from a contract or fire one you are that close to?

UNT seems like the Isralites of the Old Testament inasmuch as they just kept on waiting for their Messiah to arrive and take care of the situaition at hand, but a Messiah that was not destined to come during their particular era. So a growing army will just keep on counting down the months, weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds as they wait for NT leadership's own light bulbs to turn on to a full brightness as to what should be already be quite evident, clear and apparent to them such as... ...trends in recruiting with UNT football being a total stranger in our own Metroplex high schools and neighborhoods (sorry, but Kansan products or recruits, will never make it happen at a high profile level in Mean Green Country and at that NCAA D1A level each and everyone of us desire to have back at the University of North Texas ...some NT athletic employee's behaviors and attitudes toward NT Exes on the radio airwaves (and now even in the stands) and they wonder why season ticket sales are so damn low at UNT even after going to the SBC/Bottom 10 bowl in what will now be Lafayette, Louisiana. ...a year-to-year non-ability for this football program to average much more than 15K per home game (even during a string of bowl games) which is just another red flag that should tell NT leaders that the UNT contsituency and the Greater Denton community are just simply not buying into this anymore, ...strategic personnel decisions from NT leadership and their hardy handful (of which they and their families might fill a few of the chancellor's and presidential suite's at Fouts Field on Game Day; ...anyway, what NT leaders keep wrapping up as their most unique and special present to NT Exes/Mean Green fans with the extension of contracts non-stop to what any college football fan outside the SBC would see as (almost) laughable mediocrity, ...and that which we, ie, the Mean Green Nation have as our reward for one of the most unique styles of NCAA D1 athletic department management in history, a football program that......... cannot.......... recruit.......... one........... Texas............High.............school............prospect........... from........ the....... Dallas Morning News............. "AREA" top 100<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>but in the Department of Realism (which is not always so popular on this forum with some) we still have a football program that has been operating with unprecedented success ("wink-wink") albeit much of that of a veiled and disguised nature since even during most NT's bowl years we were getting schooled by 1-AA football schools who at that time wanted to be in the Sun Belt. 1-AA schools of which had they been in the SBC, it would have been their schools as the SBC bowl representative in New Orleans. And FWIW, when a potential offensive HS recruit of note looks at how low our MG offenses have been ranked the last 8 years, what realistic chances do we have of signing such offensive talent that other upwardly bound NCAA D1-A schools also are after? ........................................................................................................... "Even the new NT Athletic Center didn't seem to help UNT's recruiting class." (a paraphrase from the Dallas Morning News the day after national signing day). ........................................................................................................... The signs of where all this is headed are everywhere, but which NT leaders care or dare to even look?

Having observed NT athletic employees coming and going the last 30 plus years, I believe I have said that 99% (a ball park figure) from UNT usually don't ever move up the NCAA food chain; well, I guess one might then say that Van Malone was part of the, uh, 1%? ANY DAY OF ANY YEAR: Give us a coach (once again) that the PAC 10, Big 10 (or whichever high profile 1-A league) wants to hire away from UNT any day of the year; of course, pnly after such a coach has spent about 6 or 7 or 8 years of "well above" .500 football success and some key OOC wins in Mean Green Country. On the other side of the coin, don't give us coaches (or athletic staff-types) who hunker down in Denton well past their welcome that no one outside of Denton seems to want to hire.

Now Baby Arm, I was joking right along with you, too. (Yet some might think we both have a very strange, sordid, sardonic style of humor, you think)?

Baby Arm, you seem a bit touched with all this, eh? Actually, for those who cannot post intelligent things about the themes or subjects at hand, all they seem to ever have left is their "attempts" to belittle or to demean the poster. Sorta' of a sad statement of affairs for those who say they actually have a college education. New poster ObviousMan's signature: "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." (Albert Einstein) Hardly saying that I am some kind of "great spirit" but what I have to say is probably more truth than naive and shallow-minded types can probably handle. And I think at UNT, we have more than our share since many of you prefer all this SBC/Bottom 10 neighborhood and a head football coach at UNT who has bashed "YOU" at every turn the last 5 years on DFW radio. Yet, some of you really do like bad college football? Well, you got it.................but sue me for wanting good college football (again) at the University of North Texas. The gall of some people, eh? Mr. Ray, clean house...............lets start over (FAU did well starting from scratch and we haven't beat them yet)................... and lets do this while we have a house, Mr. Ray. (And to quote your MGRN boys most sarcastic oft' used phrase the last few football seasons which was also aimed at everyone of "YOU")::::::::::::::"Did you all like that)"? Have A Nice Day.

But OU seems to be getting a different kind of recruiting results while they hang in and around the Top 5 and Top 10 on an annual basis while UNT is now getting ever so close to that vaunted Bottom 10 elite list. Not real sure OU and UNT should be mentioned in the same breath at this time of our football history and recent performance.

And many of us will have cardiac arrests when any SBC school (no matter how they rank among each other in the annual SBC recruiting breakdown); anyway, many of us will be in shock when any SBC school breaks into the Top 50 (forget the Top 25, that's only reserved for the UTEP's, Bowling Green's, Boise State's, remember them?, our old Big West foe who went up the food chain with their football program while we stayed the same or even went further south now?) and Top 25 is only reserved for any MAC school that is toward the top of that league's football standings. The Sun Belt Conference is (literally) in a league of its own among all the other NCAA D1-A conferences and that is why so many now in the MG Nation just want to see something different at UNT for a change, ie, those with the talent and higher aspirations to give us a higher profile co-existance that will move us up and out of this annual "Bottom of the Barrell" co-existence. UNT athletic officials seem to be quite fine with (still) only being at the top of the SBC, no matter where we stand among the other 119 NCAA D1-A schools (which is somewhere between #100 and up of late). That M.O. will eventually get some of them run out of Denton and the Lone Star State (of which that part cannot happen soon enough for the many of us who know w/o a shadow of a doubt that we can do much better in Mean Green Country). ................................................................................................. Like one of our biggest athletic donors told me recently, "we' ve just not kept all this overall mediocrity on the UNT payroll as long as we have with this present group." I thought back to what he said and concurred that he was absolutely right on about that. Usually, continuous under .500 performances across the board for a number of years is a "not so subtle" hint that tells most athletic employees that its really time to move on (voluntarily or involuntarily), but at UNT, hellsbells, they want to stick around for even more years while being employees who are part of or smack dab in the middle of all the NT Athletic Department mediocrity; they want to take on a new house mortgage; and then they want to run for mayor or city council of Denton. (Just kiddin' about that part, of course). ................................................................................................... BACK TO THE TOP 25: Can we at UNT when all the necessary changes are finally and eventually made, emulate the MAC's top football schools to be at the top of the SBC, but do it from a Top 25 vantage point? Didn't seem that winning the SBC helped Arkansas State do anything that caught the fancy of those who cast Top 25 votes, either. So thankfully, its not just a UNT thing. COULD THIS BE MAGIC? Coach Mike Price made it happen for UTEP because its always top D1-A athletic personnel who make such things happen. Such talent comes in as a head football coach and turns a 5 or 6 year plan of planned progress into a 1 or 2 year plan. At what stage of the game will UNT reach Top 25 status, folks? What is our plan in Denton to do such and why haven't we heard of such a plan? Perhaps the reason why on that is that there is no plan other than the plan of keeping a few of our best fans happy by being alums of a school whose football program is the Best of the Worst. AND..............I just don't think the "NCAA D1-A Football Fairy" suddenly passed over El Paso and the UTEP campus throwing magic dust that turned what has been a traditional basketball school most all of our lives into one that for the first time in its school's history was no longer a stranger to Top 25 rankings. UNT deserves no less than what UTEP is getting.

Jumpin'jehosophats! Whose been sneakin' around out here in the wild, wild West of Parker County taking photos of my master bedroom?!? I resemble that! Good thread idea, because we really must maintain our humor with much of what we are being asked to support from those on campus who ask us to do such even while they wear a straight face.

Well, I believe another misconception or old wives tale floatin' around these parts (and we seem to have more than our share in Mean Green Country) is the big presumption & perception that this message board has that much bearing or influence on NT's recruiting. In fact, some would go as far and say that many of the level of players NT needs to be recruiting probably don't even own a personal computer. And I suppose "Spin 101" was not in the curriculam when I was an NT student, because the spinning wheel is working overtime with some of the unrealstic evalutions some on this board have made of this class. One description I read of one of NT's recruits this week went something like this: "...a bruising blocker with 5 catches for 40 yards." You know what, I shared that quote and stat with one of my Horned Frog friends over here in Fort Worth and he said, "Jeez, you folks really are lost in the NCAA athletic desert these days now arent' you?" BTW, UNTLifer, I know you were not soliciting this, but many of us would give your post an A+ for content. YET................if those of us on this forum don't raise hell about what we are not happy about until someone on campus finally gets the message, just who in the hell will, ie, the Friends of the "freakin" Library? (An inside joke that SUMG and maybe a few past Ulys Knight Spirit Award recipients might appreciate, and then again, maybe they won't). LOL! I bring this up one more time, but for a school who chose Dennis Parker over Dennis Francione (you know, the Aggies head man?); maybe NT leaders need to just keep on hearing some things over and over and over and over and over (again) until "DING DONG" some of this concerning NT athletics finally registers? At UNT, we don't seem to have a clue with who to hire for an NCAA D1-A program that operates at a higher profile, that is, one that will be competetive in the mainstream of NCAA D1-A (and for crissakes' can we quit operating and performing like we are still in NCAA D1-AA)? . Just doesn't take an expert to notice any of these (forever)hiring pitfalls, either. In fact, even a novice such as I have noticed these kind of hiring trends at UNT for too damn a long time. I suppose if one would simply read his (or her) NT Football Media Guide that that will give anyone all the proof that he would ever need, right?

UNTLifer, if you are content with the level Dickey Ball has taken us with the 119 member NCAA D1-A football mainstream, then you will continue to be happy with what you are getting, ie, small goals that will be reached some years by those w/o the obvious talent to take us any higher than SBC/Bottom 10 competition. AND.........before anyone knew Milton Collins would be a bust at the collegiate level, there were still about 75 other NCAA D1-A schools that Hayden Fry and UNT out-recruited for his services. Yet.............do you (or anyone) see that kind of thing such as happened with Milton Collins repeating itself under current leadership now? Hellsbells, right now many would be glad to see 1 or 2 potential recruits on an area Top 100 list say UNT is on their short list of schools they are interested. So are you really looking forward to the 2006 football season, UNTLifer? If so, good for you, but I know very few who are in light of what last season told us quite loud and clear about what many can now see as the true direction of Mean Green football. And that will just not cut the mustard for most Mean Green fans I've known in recent decades. FWIW. the MG Nation is split right down the middle with all this and a school like UNT can ill afford that kind of thing to happen. And all this because of one person on the UNT payroll to boot? It does seems to be quite an extremely potentially bad business decision from our UNT leadeship over one person on the NT payroll. Those who try to market all this this next Summer will be the first ones to find all that out, too. Maybe NT leadership will sit down and listen to that group, eh?