PlummMeanGreen

IMO, the last 25 (or so) years we have mostly been fiddle-fartin' around with poorly designed unis' non-stop and (even worse) worn by too many poor performing, sometimes poorly coached, unranked football teams operating at the lower rung of the ladder which is the 119 member NCAA D1-A. We made logo and unis' changes so frequently that our opponents, DFW Metroplex and statewide critics probably wondered why the heck we changed them so often and if we'd ever get it right for once. And what we change to can usually only garner the approval of (at best) 50% For and 50% Against, that is, what we have that represents our alma mater in the unis'/helmets "looks" department. With such stats as the aforementioned, how can UNT officials ever expect to sell en mass what our campus creators would have our UNT-oriented constituency purchase en ma$$ ? We have to keep in mind that outside the many posters of this board (who out of loyalty will buy just about anything whether they sincerely like them or not); anyhow.............. .................since we do have a bit of competition here in the Lone Star State when it comes to our attempts in matching (and selling) our new brandings, ie, UNT gear versus all the other D1-A schools, UNT really needs to be a cut above the rest in our very brandings/sports gear department, that is, we need to put a very sharp to the eye product out on DFW area retailer's shelves & clothes racks as to get our enormous group of potential buyers (100,000 NT Exes in DFW according to Prez' Gretchen) to start their first experiences of purchasing NT-oriented gear even if it means for those first purchases that group buying the least inexpensive items coming from our latest brandings, logos and now our new shade of green (which I personally like if they could ever get the 'true" kelly green color--which is what Notre Dame has on their sports caps, gear, etc); but..............FWIW............UNT's first time buyers of gear even have to like what they see to make them want to make their first time purchases. If they do like what they see, then the more expensive items purchases will come later. From reading this board, it is still apparent that many still think we don't have what could be considered even close to having what could be described as being "mass marketable" UNT/Mean Green gear, and that, of course is what most our varsity teams have to wear, too. Do we really know who (perhaps) a few UNT officials are trying to really please with all these latest markings crreated for our alma mater------US or THEM? Well, last count, there are still significantly more of us out here (100K in the DFW Metroplex alone) and if those on campus truly have in mind giving us the best possible look as far as what will (ultimately) be popular by the majority and, thus, sell en mass and BTW.................. make our alma mater some significant income from the College Licensing folks when all our gear is purchased by the masses; if that is truly their attitude, then they would be on the right track with our latest brandings that will be debuted this Fall. If its not their attitude, then we just have more trouble in River City (to quote Professor Harold Hill). Lastly, I know this would be toward the bottom of a priority list (although it would still be on the list), but don't UNT's potential football recruits want to play for a school that has a top notch, sharp look even with its unis/helmets, ie, the very thing they are going to be wearing on Game Day, many times even on TV and in front of our students, fans, our player's parents, their relatives and friends for 4 (or 5) of the most important years they will have their entire lives? Just my .02 on the subject (once again).

OK, Jack, just for you: 10-A. Just Scattershootin', Shootin' the Bull, Rambling (about NT helmets which have most likely already been ordered for Fall, 2007), Aimless Mumble-ings & Just General Lagniape (Sorry, NT80, didn't mean to "briefly" hijack your well thought out thread of good ideas). THINK BIG <>*<> BUILD BIGGER!

I agree and............... I CAN'T ADD MUCH MORE ON THIS SUBJECT THAN THE FOLLOWING: Like an NT Ex told me just yesterday: Why do we feel a need and why don't we of UNT feel confident enough about who we are as a school "football-wise" that we feel we must put any letters or words on a UNT football helmet? Won't people know that when we are on TV (as we've been many times the last 7-8 years), that that is truly "North Texas" playing in that game? AND.............with special designed "eagle only" helmet that looks nothing like a Philly Eagle helmet? For "flying worm" critics, in September of 1976 the most impressive appearance of about 17-19,000 Mean Green fans at UT's DKR Memorial Stadium were all watching a team all of whom were wearing that "flying worm" helmet; and a MG football team which came within minutes of putting a knot on the head of an Earl Campbell-led DKR-coached Longhorn football team. We lost that game 17-14 in the last minutes of the game with a long TD run by (who else?)..................... Mr. Earl Campbell. Not many (especially UT Longhorn fans) left that stadium post-game making fun of those apple green unis' (which BTW is a color most of us would not want us to go back to in this era) and for certain no one was making fun of our alma mater's helmet logo, ie, what many now call the "flying worm" helmet which is a name I still to this day feel uncomfortable calling such, but guess the name we have to use so most on this board know we are talking about that particular UNT helmet. (I personally don't see any worm connection as it is------at least it doesn't look like any worm I've seen lately. NO LETTERS/ NO NAMES ON A HELMET..........IS THAT COMMUNIST-LIKE OR WHAT? Nevertheless, many of our NT community thought a helmet w/o any letters or words on it was just downright cool for North Texas; in fact, was so cool that many in the DFW Metroplex bought much NT gear with the the Fry-era eagle all all that NT sports gear of that day. For what its worth (again)..............I didn't hear much about all this flying worm business until Hayden Fry left and a hardy handful of his NT-employed Denton detractors (none of whom are to this day in the College Football Hall of Fame) loved that name. Yet you would see the "F..... W..." all over the DFW Metroplex as you drove the interstates and highways and I don't recall SMU'er or TCU'ers making fun of that logo either (especially TCU'er whose football program that would never schedule a Fry-coached Mean Green football team were sucking hind teat as a football program back then). Many across Texas and the Southwest knew that about the Fry-era eagle back then and the (at the time) fashionable apple green; but what most Texans (including my late Houston area dad who had always been a big DKR/Texas fan); anyway, even he knew something special was going on in Denton with that "North Texas" bunch with their going/growing program that many in our region began watching with interest its progress. IMAGINE........... Can you only imagine had NT been in an SBC-type league back in the Fry-era playing on an SBC-type TV network package? Then how many more would have known about that flying worm/helmet of NT? Might it had been so recognizable because of so many TV appearances that we might still have that helmet today; a la SMU and Texas who have kept their helmet logos mascots in tact for decades? I like Deep Green's helmet w/o N T on it because our present SBC member Mean Green football team gets more TV opps and with all those opportunities might we be able to get our new look helmet out to the masses much quicker than 3 1/2 decades ago? Even more important could be how NT officials could very strategically place the "North Texas" (with its present font) on the front of our team's jerseys in 2 lines and do that with much larger letters than could ever be put on a helmet. Also, Mean Green is already a most identifiable nickname with our school because of 4 bowl games that were nationally televised and numerous SBC TV game appearances as well so we would still be emphasizing that most unique nickname AND........................."Mean Green" could still be spelled out vertically on the pants or instead of "North Texas" on the jersey, put "Mean Green" on the jerseys and find another place for UNT or North Texas. We will always be the Mean Green and our media guides would stress that to media outlets and all of our opponent's sports broadcasters to use in all of their respective broadcasts. A football helmet w/o putting any school names or school abbreviations just says that we have enough confidence with what Todd Dodge is going to do for our football program (along with more TV appearances we know we will be getting more of eventually) that we just don't have a need to make our helmet look "too busy" and non-functionable (and one that half our constituency will like with the other half who will not like--and won't buy it at retailers). What better way to appease all potential UNT sports gear customers by putting absolutely no letters on our future NT football helmet. If not with the present crowd at UNT, something to consider seriously for our next group and new helmet go-around in Denton. For you Young Gun NT alums: if you just could have been part of our 17-19,000 Mean Green fans (which BTW....our group's enormous numbers during that beautiful evening in Austin absolutely blew many UT fans away); anyway, if you could have just been a witness to all this at DKR Memorial at our state's capital city on September of 1976, you would known exactly what many of us on this board are talking about as far as UNT having a helmet with no letters but rather a helmet with just a futuristic eagle logo on it instead. IN CLOSING.... A "letter-less" NT football helmet during the Fry Era at UNT just showed to many across our state that our school coupled with a high profile Head Football Coach (namely Hayden Fry and now with Todd Dodge); nevertheless, UNT had so much confidence with what we were going to do with our football program that we didn't have to choose among about a "jillion" font possibilities for an "N T" to put on a helmet nor did we have to worry about what kind of "cute'sy" letters we could use to spell out our schools "entire name" (can you say..........."a bit too "busy" with that many letters")? This was a MG football program that had athletic staffers who had taken us to Top 20 rankings and who daily walked with a swagger..........as did many of its alums. GMG! PS: IF 1 or 2 of you who I know are close enough to Prez "B" as to get her immediate and undivided attention agree with most of the aforementioned (as I know many of you do as it was some of you on this board who sold me on the idea long ago); that is, as far as our next NT helmet possbily being "letter-less" but rather a "eagle logo only"UNT football helmet............ ................anyway, please do feel free to email the aforementioned thoughts to her office. I just think she might be interested in hearing another side on all this NT helmet business anyway, that is, for the large majority of those on this board from every era who would like to see more consumers buying our "Collegiate Licensed" Mean Green sports gear (of which looks, style and appearance has everything to do with their wanting to do such en mass. And FWIW, with because with the Collegiate Licensing officials who monitor sales of NCAA schools sportswear/gear, isn't it still a matter of the more gear that UNT sells, the more income UNT make$ from Collegiate Licensing?

Very informative, sensible and realistic post, Jack, and............ .............probably a good reason we all should move on from this sujbect and all of us hope & pray that a Big Donor will soon be on our horizon to help our alma mater get the ball rolling on construction of a new, true, bonafide NCAA D1-A (properly sized) football stadium at the Mean Green Village. I think very few (probably none) on this forum are going to be asked their opinion(s) on what we would all trip over each other to get to DFW/Denton area retail outlets as far as purchasing new UNT brandings of NT gear/sports wear, etc, that we would all say: "Now this is outstanding, creative, extremely well-designed and thouroughly thought-out sports gear here that I don't mind laying down a hundred bucks to purchase and wear proudly." In fact, how many times recently have we had threads on GMG.com of which any semblance of what one might call a majority were all on the same page with sincere excitement as to what our most recent and now our present UNT leaders have really gone outside the usual box in Denton to come up with that we all think is pretty darn cool and would be extremely marketable to more than just those of us on GoMeanGreen.com? THINK BIG <>*<> BUILD BIGGER!

An All Time Top 10 post! ! ! ! LMF(reakin')AO! (Still a family message board, right Harry)? I know we are fartin' in the wind with an "eagle only/no words/no letters" scenario on our helmet now, but it does give us something to think about for the future when we go thru all this helmet change business............ ...............all over again. Is it just me, but does the above little guy blow-up icon remind others of you (especially when he close his eyes) of a certain former Dallas=based TV evangelist who used to close his eyes a whole bunch while (I suppose) thinking (praying?) of someone who just sent him another $1,000 check to his ministry; that is, so he could make payments on one of his 18 room mansions? THINK BIG<>*<>BUILD BIGGER!

Quite frankly (and I am another not too excited about our helmet with its "North Texas" font or even North Texas spelled out on a football helmet period); but IMO...................UNT athletic officials still need to be more concerned about meeting their new stadium completion year projections. Yet............at UNT, aren't helmet and unis' constant change a big part of our tradition in Denton as much as anything; especially when we have administration and AD turnovers? We are like a school that has multiple personality disorders when it comes to what our branding experts on campus want the general UNT community and consumer to purchase with all their constant changing of our clothing and sports gear. When Rick V and/or Todd Dodge leaves for other opportunities, can we all look forward to yet more changes? Our history in all this suggests that we can look forward to more changes because that is what we do at North Texas. I wish Prez' B would take hold of this thing and tell the entire UNT constituency what we are going to do with all this athletic helmet and branding issues (and maybe even stick with what we would come up with before this Falls UNT freshmen class actually graduate? At UNT, we are quite adept at making changes when it comes to logos, new shades of green, etc, etc, etc; but we are not as adept at making changes when it comes to deadwood peronnel who have been given years to prove that their (obvious) NCAA DII talents would be better utilized at, well, a ..................NCAA Division II school. Its always been NCAA D1-A personnel (and at UNT that means more than just Todd Dodge) that produce NCAA D1-A athletic programs.

When most Texans who are legitimate NCAA D1-A college football fans see a helmet with a Mustang or Pony on it and in the colors of red and blue, most of them know that that is SMU's helmet--no one in the Southwest has anything close to it (except a few Texas HS's who copied it starting with the Grapevine HS Mustangs)........... ................same with the UT Longhorn's helmet and some might ask the question of why this with SMU and UT? Could one answer be that those 2 schools established their helmet logo traditions decades ago and just merely stuck with it (no matter who their latest college president or AD's on their respecitive payrolls would be)? One of the best parts of logos that are set in stone and tradition might be by anyone just visiting the SMU and/or UT message boards just to see how many threads they've had (ever) with the subject or theme: "What do we need to do with our alma mater's football helmet design for this upcoming football season?" How about........................Z-I-L-C-H ! ! ! SON OF WORM LOOKING GOOD, GB1 ! I personally like that green eagle, ie, son of worm that GB1 has posted on his thread, but what if we used his idea, left this NT helmet in tact and as is for about 10 years running, then would there be a need for an"N T" or letter combination on this helmet at all beginning with the first year it would be used? Sorry, I'm just a fan of the mascot logo on a helmet with no school name or school letters on then whatsoever, just like the Texas Longhorns, SMU Mustangs etc, etc, etc, I realize that if we had such a helmet half the threads we've seen the last few years on GMG.com would not have ever appeared or been posted! A problem we still seem to have at UNT is just getting a large majority of our best fans/alums on the same page and just sticking with something for an extended period of time as to even give a new helmet ample time to grow in popularity with most of our alums and fans. I recall that Hayden Fry's flying worm was not all that popular with many until we started beating (or playing very close) some pretty big time D1 football schools. Then Rick Spear's flying worm logo helmet became a symbol of some semblance of success no other Mean Green football teams in our history had experienced. BUT.............................Jeez, how many helmet design changes have we had since the Corky Nelson era? Again, it looks good to me, GB1, but with the variation of having nothing else on your helmet such as in the form of names or letters except for the eagle. And wouldn't such a helmet settle (once and for all) all the North Texas font ideas and the "N T" letter combo/ideas we've seen by our graphic artists or the hundreds of fonts one could use to spell out the words "North Texas" on our football team's helmet. CHANGING UNT HELMET LOGOS/DESIGNS QUITE FREQUENTLY IS (sadly enough) A NORTH TEXAS TRADITION.

And how many NT logo & color changes ago would that have been, MG93-98? For those of us with dimensia as well as those who have been astute followers of all our new (but lost) different helmets/shades of green traditions in Denton, just what was the NT helmet during the Parker/Maher era? What I do know most of us wish that we did have from that era was a (present) QB just like we had with the great Mitch Maher. Who know, maybe we already do with Todd Dodge's tutelage and development of such, eh? NOTE: Whatever color green Notre Dame and Marshall are using now would be a most welcome (and most noticable by TV cameras spanning our crowd) green for the, uh, Mean Green, right? If there were ever a school that really needs to have an impressived and very distinguished green on any of its unis', sports gear, caps, etc, etc, etc, wouldn't that school be the one that calls its sports teams.......................Mean Green?

I think you're onto something, NT80. And so our official color is Pantone color #356, ShopMean Green? Thanks for that info and I know we now all hope more retailers will get that same UNT official color info if they hadn't already; like when they should have--for instance, at least 1 year before we made public our new UNT brandings announcement so they could start ordering this new color for UNT gear? Any possible way the "son of flying worm" could have an "N" on the left and a "T" on the right? Is that design already in any of our new brandings? (I'm afraid having the words North Texas spelled out and the Eagle on our helmet would be much too busy and the letters would have to be so small it would defeat the purpose of having our schools full name on the helmet in the first place........just my .02 on that. I think most would agree that we always need to emphasize "Mean Green" but we cannot do so at the expense of completely losing our schools official nickname, ie, NT Eagles. Using "Mean Green" officially as a 2'nd nickname was a post-Mean Joe Greene johnny come lately (so to speak) but a most welcome johnny come lately most of us would agree. I say that in context to how old our school is, of course, having opened its doors circa, 1890. Many of us have always wanted an NT helmet to have a futuristic looking eagle on it (a la flying worm or similar) and then just leave it alone for the next 50 or years (just like UT has done with their helmet logo). UNT is sometimes its own worst enemy when we start turning all our graphic artists loose on and off our campus, although we know know many of that group to be most talented. If UNT wants to start and then maintain new traditions (which a new NT tradition begins with every logo/color change) and all this when it comes to those new logos and brandings, just quit changing them every time we have an administrative or athletic admininistration change. Did DeLoss Dodds try to change UT's Longhorn helmet logo when he took over as the UT AD? Hell no, that Kansan was actually smart enough not to even think about doing such and still maintain his family jewels. Anyone think those who leave Denton from our athletic dept will really care what our logos look like once they are off the NT payroll, albeit they were the very ones that influenced most of our logo/color changes most of the last quarter of a century up in Denton? How many helmets at UNT have lasted more than 10 years as it is? I think the flyin worm actually lasted 11 years until an "anti-Fry" athletic administration took over. They changed it immediately. Funny how we as alums or NT Exes have to accept the creative whims, ie, new logos and yet another shade of green of way too many without NT ties and once they leave Denton we rarely see them again? I don't look for there to be an eagle on our next NT helmet design, but I think it would be a good idea to put one on it that our campus design experts feel would pass the test of time and just leave the darn thing alone for a few decades and more. Again, isn't that the true beginnings of that kind of tradition we've been missing at our campus and beyond?

Looking at attitudes of the last 30 plus years I've been around DFW and the Mean Green scene, I still don't anticipate a clamor from the SMU's, Rices, etc, etc, etc, as far as leading the way and jumping on a "Draft UNT For CUSA Membership" movement. Those folks still think like many private schoolers think and for darn sure they still can't forget that it was Texas universities about the size of UNT and larger who put them all out to pasture post-SWC implosion. PERFECT DREAM SCENARIO FOR UNT? IMHO (and a few other fellow alums that I've seen post the same thing on this forum) would be for UNT to build a true (don't cut any corners) NCAA D1-A football stadium and then bribe the hell out of TCU to try to get us to be their travel partner in the Mountain West Conference. Now that would be a coup, although SMU'ers all over would be soiling themselves if TCU pushed for us over them; but in today's NCAA, anything is possible. THINK BIG--BUILD BIGGER!

YES! An enlightened Horned Frog! (Acutally, those of us who work in the Fort Worth area know many enlightened TCU'ers). Yet would all of you that have worked in DFW most of your adult lives (as I have) and have heard (ad nausem) how North Texas is a commuter school raise your hands! Yep, just as I thought! But thanks, MG61, for finding that post...guess I should now go back and read the rest of that thread. THINK BIG--BUILD BIGGER!

So we're back to the old "commuter school" card with one of the Froggy posters, eh? Wonder when we have 20,000 living in our our present and future campus dorms if they will still use that same ol' weathered lagniape; that is, the same thing their daddies and grand-daddies use to say about North Texas back when TCU "used" to be, uh....................... in the Southwest Conference? Maybe a few more Froggies need to come tour our campus (once again) but now hear the news that there are Texas state officials who are projecting that the University of North Texas will even pass Texas A & M (not the one in Commerce, TX, either) in enrollment in the future as the Lone Star State's 2'nd largest university.

HERE WE GO AGAIN???? Is SBC media coverage taking a nostalgic stroll back in time; you know, back when the MUTS would win all the pre-season beauty contests annually, but on Game Day another school would win the beauty contest whose results showed up on SBC scoreboards each Fall? With a new (all together in unison now) .........."40,000"............. seat football stadium at our ever-burgeoning Mean Green Village, many anticipate Head Football Coach Todd Dodge's Mean Green football program will aim higher than we have in decades and become the next Boise State (or even better) while shooting for a BCS Bowl Championship Series bowl game and then...........subsequently...........it will be the University of North Texas that becomes the SBC school that is its first Top 25 football program in this era (since we were a Top 20 in another) because that is the kind of beauty contest that means something to most college football fans (and on a national basis); and for proof of that, talk to any Boise State U alumnus or fan. So until then..............you MUTS folks can win all the pre-season beauty contests that floats your boats.

Whoops, flood control situation here.

As always, I stand to be corrected, but isn't kelly green the same green you see on Notre Dame caps/gear at stores such as Lids? Also, doesn't kelly green have a specific number so that all retailers (including Voertmans) can be on the same page when ordering UNT kelly green gear (all using whatever the kelly green number is)? In a perfect world, the UNT Branding Committee would have let all retailers know first in Denton and then to the uttermost parts of the earth 1 (maybe even 2) years before major changes would be made; that is, major changes would soon be made with logo and a different shade of color change would be made at a major Texas university of which a large university brandings project truly become, that is, a major under-taking. Yet as expressed on this forum numerous times by many of you (including myself) when all these branding planning sessions were first in their formative stages, they just seemed to be a very hushed & rushed affair, ie, compliments of the UNT System chancellor's office. Did the UNT Branding Committee think the world was sitting (anxiously) on the edge of their seats waiting for an announcement from their elite committee that a logo and a new shade of green color change from Denton, Texas, America, were on the way? Did they actually think once they made their public announcement on their branding ideas that all (especially campus groups and all retailers) would be able to make immediate changes? Seems that those from the UNT athletic dept. that order unis for our varsity football, basketball, track, etc,..........and from the UNT COM our marching band unis' were not given any semblance of much-needed early hints that changes were on the way for new brandings at UNT. For the UNT Branding Committee and for all of us who would be affected by their changes, what better campus representatives could there have possibly been to get the word out to the masses than all Mean Green varsity teams and our fabulous Green Brigade Marching Band? Jeez, back then, our MG football team was even making numerous TV appearances, too, which could have been invaluable publicity for much of the Southwest and Deep South to see UNT's new look, but as we know know, our football team was still sporting our old look (unis) instead and the UNT Marching Band officials had already ordered about a half million dollar$ worth of band uniforms. Yet for all campus groups and retailers, if the UNT Branding Committee thought all would immediately be able to make quick changtes for new logos and a different shades of green, then there is still way too much naivity (of which naivity can sometimes become expen$ive) that still prevails at certain quarters of our campus. I just don't understand why there has been a problem with UNT vendors (especially those based in Denton) with all their coming up with kelly green on their display racks and shelves because other schools who use kelly green, ie, Notre Dame, Marshall (and now I think even Michigan State) don't seem to be making mountains out of mole hills when it comes to communicating to all their respective school's retail outlets what they are doing "now" with their brandings.

And the "flying worm" could have been our version of UT's Longhorn graphic as well as (OK, I'll say it)............SMU's pony graphic on their helmet. Whether one likes SMU or not, most in Texas would recognize the pony on their helmet. Actually, the UT helmet Longhorn logo has even had a few minor face-lifts thru the decades but not so extreme as to completely change its looks; you know, like when when switched from the flying worm to the parakeet flying thru the hoola-hoop that began with the Corky Nelson era (and 12 loooonnnnngggggg years of a NCAA D1-AA co-existance that many of us still feel has this program sucking wind in too many ways (as compared to those programs we'd like to be associated with and that among all the other 100 plus NCAA D1-A football schools). Ran into an older TCU alum recently at a Fort Worh Kinkos, he saw my UNT gear, we had a nice talk about both our alma maters but one thing he said about ours stood out with me (and I paraphrase him): "Been sorta' difficult for your school with all its many name changes to maintain tradition, hasn't it?" And I answered him: "Yes, and our athletic program (thru the decades) each time we had an AD change usually brings along brilliant new ideas for, uh..................... new unis, a new eagle logo (if we use eagles for his tenure), a new shade of green (how many more of those could possibly be left for us to switch to) and more of the same as they tell us what we all want to hear as far as how big time we are going to be under their leadership (that is, until they get their next job--whether by their choice or if UNT makes that choice for them). YET........................carry on committee, but come up with the kind of ideas (maybe go back to some old ones that should have been maintained) and all these ideas that will last thru the next 8 UNT presidents and our next "however many" AD's. Nevertheless THINK BIG--BUILD BIGGER!

Holy Cow! (to quote Bill Mercer's late "good buddy", ie, baseball broadcaster Harry Carey), but is the THSCA now co-sponsored by the University of Texas or something? Did I see a little Aggie maroon mixed in the THSCA graphic, too? I know, sometimes we get a bit touchy on this forum when it comes to graphic art, but do check out GB's link to make your own opinion). YET.................last time I checked, there were still 9 other D1-A schools from the Lone Star State, right? ...............but come on already, UT and TAMU already have most of our state's chicken salad, ie, the Permanent University Fund and have since the 1870's, so for the rest of all of us who get the chicken sh-t, just what other advantages must be given to those 2 schools?

Not 100% on this, but I think Fry recruited Baysinger's dad (or maybe his uncle) back in the day. If it was the same one, I don't think he made it to freshmen orientation at (then) NTSU.

Bravo! And thanks for the timely response for what could have been a very sensitive issue, especially those from the Naval Academy who will visit Fouts this Fall (along with their parents/relatives/friend) and...............Roger Staubauch! I think many would agree that the Cadets of Army can say or use "Sink Navy" in any form, fashion, yell or graphic arts on any T-shirt and get away with it; just not sure a civilian-oriented campus like UNT could ever do the same, though; but as always, just my .02 on this issue.

First of all, good post, Smitty, in JD's above post. We have to remember that this is still an opinion board (of which there are probably a few who disagree with other's opinions from time to time)? For example, only recently some of us actually thought the betterment of MG football would need a new HFC; and then others....................well...................they wanted to continue business as usual, not to rock the Denton retirement futures of some of our staff up there and just keep on doing what has this program where it has annually been land-locked in context to the other 119 NCAA D1-A member schools and all this for many of our NT Exes adult lifetimes. Probably still need to see more personnel changes truth be known if we are going to complement (successfully) a Todd Dodge-led football resurrection of MG football back to where it can actually be a ranked football program once again and none of this.......................disguised success at the bottom rung of the ladder of NCAA D1-A football. Was hoping the Guinness Book of World Records folks were reading some of those long sentences because I'm sure we all know they would be regular readers of this board, right? As most always it was way too long but my message was: Maybe UNT officials should test the waters a bit more before they jump into another "possible" expensive project that they want the most of our NT alums to buy into? And I probably should have not brought up the whole UNT Branding "under their radar" fiasco in the first place except for the fact that we seem to have too many experts on our main campus who really never seem to do their extensive homework (among those who have actually bought UNT gear in large numbers thru the years and decades) as for them to find out what the majority of NT Exes who purchase NT gear actully really think would be marketable as to represent our school "brandings-wise"; and with the brandings that too many times they seem to be taking a pretty big gamble (and too many times most expensive gambling on their parts). (Another long sentence probably needing, uh, punctation throughout just as well, too, UNTflyer).

This message board was (somewhat) but very rudely ridiculed by a very elitist-acting member of Lee Jackson's "chosen few" which comprised his UNT Branding Committee a couple or so years ago. REMEMBER? A UNT Branding Commitee that so poorly planned their pubicly announced results of their committee's production that they didn't even get their branding ideas out in time on the very campus they came up with their ideas because UNT Athletics and the UNT College of Music did not in a timely manner get the official UNT branding news so that they could plan ahead as to incorporate the new logos and kelly green with their respective ordering of their new unis' that would show to all UNT's new brandings in what is (arguably) our school's best and most effective way to get things as important as a university's new brandings out to the masses, with that for UNT mostly being the DFW Metroplex (all 6 million of us)! YET................with that most public & visible way to get the message out on college football Game Day weekends in Denton coupled with all the numererous Mean Green football games that would be televised back to the DFW Metroplex during that announced UNT Branding period of time; nevertheless, a golden opportunity was missed by our alma mater by lack of planning. So a potential UNT Branding buying market would have to wait a whole year before they could see UNT's new brandings on our football unis'; well, how much of that new UNT branding impact did UNT lose by having to wait a whole year before the MG football team could show our new brandings to the masses? Failing to plan & then plan to fail" going on with all that poor timing scenario from a UNT Branding Committe of which one of its members didn't think they really had to answer to anyone with UNT ties? YET.....................that very same UNT Branding Committe member's pot shot or dissing toward one of our own came in the form of an erroneously sent email that reached Super Fan/NT Ex FireFightin'Rick's home computer with a message saying (and I do liberally paraphrase that Branding Committe member that said: "We" (as the committee member was speaking on behalf of what became a most elite acting branding committee) don't have to answer to any of "THAT GROUP", ie, NT Exes or those who post on GMG.com with their opinions as well as personal whims (although we had to accept the personal whims of a UNT Branding Committee with such committees many of us have witnessed from UNT's past not really knowing what was going on beyond our main campus's borders. And with too many UNT main campus-sprung ideas that (in the past) really never captured a large segment of all our UNT community's imagination............. DO WE MARKET TO THE CREATIVE FEW OR RATHER TO THE MASSES AT UNT? .....................of course, another question one may have asked concerning all this........................If that Lee Jackson-chosen UNT Branding Committee didn't have to answer to our massive alumnus group with each & every one of of us in past decades and recently year-to-year having sincere concerns for our school's marketing image as compared to all our other Texas university collegues that "UNT civiians" had to encounter every day and what some of you have called the "real world out here." Yet who was it that would be LJ's Branding Committee's potential buying market that would purchase their graphic artist ideas in record-numbers? Do they ever see the Big Picture when they come up with their cute-sy little ideas. History woud say they don't. Yet could that market have have been Lee Jackson, a few of LJ's BOR's, Lee Jackson's family and friends, Lee Jackson's Branding Committee members, Lee Jackson's Branding Committee's immediate family members and all their relatives) so forth and so on? Fact is and...........IMHO, UNT does not and has not had any noticeable success records in the past of being a marketing dynamo in this my 5'th decade of being an NT alum and what more proof do we all need than the following: In 4 recent football seasons that produced bowl games, with all the "marketing"? many most astutely observed during those 4 bowl years, we still only averaged 15,000 per home game (give or take) at venerable Fouts Field. So with our UNT's marketing guru's past records of having a most "un-Midas" touch when it comes to getting their marketing messages across to the UNT masses with clever little graphic artist renderings or ideas this question might need to be asked once more: Do we market to the few or do we market to our masses? Moral: Why not get a wide cross-section of MG fans and NT alums who have seen the good, the bad and the ugly with this school and simply ask that group what they think before they mass produce any T-shirt that only an elite few may end up purchasing? Wouldn't such an idea as that make sense and even cent$ at UNT? ON A PERSONAL NOTE: Out of respect to my late parents feelings they had toward a Navy sailor and close friend of theirs back in the day; nevertheless, their friend met his untimely death in one of those sunken ships bombed by the Japs (whoops--not PC) at Pearl Harbor, circa December 7, 1941. Yes, I know, a long time ago, but still a memory of my late parents that I chose to honor here in 2007. So are we over-reacting with all this? We probably are, but the fact that we are re-acting with all this at all and that (seemedly) split down the middle might be a subtle hint that the NT Exes group (who I'm sure are a most talented group) might want to consider all the things said on this GMG.com thread and consider a different graphic on that T-shirt and............one that might sell to the ma$$e$ rather than a split group? At UNT, we don't need to insult anyone who would be insulted by the graphic of an American ship being sunk no matter how its spun on a T-shirt. Just my .02 on this subject (or maybe "just my $2" since this post is just a tad lengthy? THINK BIG--BUILD BIGGER!

When UNT opens a brand spanking new "40,000" seat palace at the MG Village and when UNT starts scheduling UT (a la Central Florida with the Horns as their home opponent in their new stadium grand opening); also, when the Mean Green start scheduling TAMU, Texas Tech, OU, OSU, etc, etc, etc,.................anyway, anyone else think the 'Stang faithful may (suddenly) have a change of heart about coming to Denton and playing a game that was important enough for all the aforementioned type of schools that they would come to Denton, Texas, America? THINK BIG--BUILD BIGGER!

Very interesting, ADLER... But yes, your idea of varsity baseball would be good too. Hey Harry, maybe we also now need a "Community Notes" section on GMG.com?

Another time-table that probably should be (seriously) fast-forwarded is TXDot's expansion of I35-E (especially near the Fouts Field area). Sorta' sad that our state leadership in the past decade(s) failed to plan ahead for an interstate expansion with their knowing the Metroplex would grow to its present population of approx. 6 million (with more substantial growth on the way). We all know I35E from Dallas to Denton has long been a nightmare, but it has amazed me to see I35W from Fort Worth to Denton become as busy as it has; but again, 6 million people spread out in (even) a 5 county area might tend to fill many of our Metroplex roads to the max. In 10 years, I 've seen a difference in the Parker County traffic, especially off Interstate 20 (and I'd bet FFR would concur). THINK BIG--BUILD BIGGER!

Did not Scout.com (most likely) predict an SMU win over UNT last year, too? Think Big--Build Bigger!