the real grad88

What do you know, someone else is thinking of the same thing. I agree 100%. Now, the last time I posted this discussion, I had several who said that it would take a lot more than $4.00 gas to cause realignment. I don't think so and here is why. It's not JUST $4.00 gas, it is the prospects of how high it could go in the next several years. In addition, it is the FACT that college development officers are having a TOUGH time getting donations for things that used to be gimmies. The economy is slowing all kinds of things down that used to keep the little perks going. The point is: I don't know what the tipping point will be, but it will not be business as usual for the indefinite future. Eventually rising costs and shrinking donations are going to catch up with a BUNCH of midmajor programs and maybe then some common sense will come into play.

I have always loved Denton. I lived there for 10 years while in school and after graduating. Would have made it my permanent home had jobs not taken me else where. It is the perfect city. I loved riding my bike around campus and being there local for all of the events. I would move back if I could. It will always be home.

This is the shortest but best post on this subject. I agree. Conference afflilation is the only thing that separates us from ANY other DIA school in Texas. It effects everything...from recruiting to attendance to preception. If somehow by magic UNT joined the Big XII tomorrow, many of our academic programs would suddenly rise in perception as well. Isn't it interesting how that works. Just because the public sees a school's team play on TV every week, they automatically think that their academic programs are superior to other, lesser known schools. In fact, the Big XII would do well to put UNT in their conference instead of Baylor...if they were thinking strategically. We would automatically need an 80K seat stadium and would have the funds to do so. Can you imagine UT and A&M coming to town...the excitement and madness that it would generate? Mean while, Baylor has peaked long ago. Conference affliation does mean everything.

The real causes are history and timing. Had UNT been in the center of the explosive growth we are now enjoying back in the 70s, we would be one of the leading universities in the nation right now...athletically speaking. In Texas it would be UT, A&M and UNT in the same breath. We would be in the Big XII right now instead of Baylor. The fact is the timing was off. When we made our push to join the SWC, we were a sleepy little college in a sleepy little town. Our officials saw UNT in a very different light...the past...not the future. Had we got into the SWC, everything would have changed in a hurry! We would have a 70K seat stadium right now, and probably 50K in enrollment...given recent growth. As I said, we would be in the Big XII, know doubt. The thing UNT needs to hope for is another future shift in alignments. I think it will happen. We just have to be patient. Old egos die hard, but they do die...just like history fades into the past. When new alignment talks happen, most people involved won't hold the history in their mind that they once did. We will be included in the new mix...whenever that occurs. The deal is: We will probably never rise as high as we could have had we done so many years earlier. That is water under the bridge. I would be happy in a good midmajor, regional conference with schools our alums care about playing. We all know who those schools are.

I go you one better than that. Could we not have bleachers on the sidelines on the track? I don't care if they are bleachers. When they are full, it won't matter...all looks the same. I think it should be done if nothing else but to get a few thousand fans close to the action where they could actually make some noise and create more of a homefield advantage as opposed to the sound just ending up in Sanger or some place. You could even fix it to where it is actually called the "rowdy zone" in which only those fans who were going to yell like maniacs were invited to sit there.

You say that and then you experience a game like the famous UNT-Texas game in 1988 and then you are hooked on these big games. You never know when the upset might happen! If you ever get to see a game like that...when 70,000 fans get deathly quiet because the Mean Green is shocking the nation...you will change your tune.

Some areas of the country are still in growth mode as in Denton, at least from a commercial arena I have a friend who has been in the real estate business in Denton for 15 years...times are really tough in that department. Credit is just too tight. When I read this article, I realize how much Denton has changed in the last 20 years. When I first came to UNT in 1985, the pop sign read 49,000. Denton truly was a sleep little town. When I come back there now, I don't even recognize the place. The one addition I keep looking for is a shiny new stadium.

When you add the fact that midmajors are lucky to have 20-30K at most home games and when those matches could be against a program that is just a bus ride away as opposed to a $250,000 charter flight away, sooner or later the numbers begin to scream at you, "The status qou makes no sense!" Let's see...we could have a Houston or SMU game at UNT or Arkansas State or LA Tech for the cost of a $5000.00 bus ride OR have a $250,000 charter flight to Marshall or Alabama, when the crowd is going to be about the same either way. Which makes the most common sense? Like I said before, when programs begin to have to choose between paying staff or paying the cost of far-flung travel for no additional benefit, then the phone will start ringing.

MORGANTOWN - Tammy Cavender's job has never been easy, but seldom has it been this exasperating. There's not much that the travel coordinator for West Virginia's athletic department can do about it, though, just like there's not much she or anyone else can do when it's time to fill up her own car with gas. "How are gas prices affecting you?'' Cavender asked. "Maybe you can cut something here or there, but at the end of the day there's not much you can do about it.'' Rising fuel prices are putting the pinch on WVU's athletic budget in all sorts of ways. Assistant athletic director for finance Russ Sharp points to everything from fuel to run the vehicles used by athletic department staffers - both cars for transportation and equipment used for maintenance - to the costs incurred by the department's food management service, Sodexho, for shipments from suppliers. But where the real sticker shock comes is for the huge amount of travel required by athletic teams competing in a Big East Conference that stretches from Florida to Rhode Island up and down the East Coast to Chicago and Milwaukee in the Midwest. Throw in the occasional non-conference football game in Colorado or a bowl game in Arizona and the costs can be overwhelming. It starts with a bus trip to Pittsburgh International Airport that in the past few years has increased from $600 to $700 to nearly $1,000 now, includes costs for more bus transportation in the destination city and can be sandwiched around a chartered flight that costs $240,000................ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I posted a couple of weeks back, gas prices are not going to have to go to $10.00 a gallon in order to be a factor in forcing conference realignment change...as some on this board suggested. Athletic departments are feeling it right now. How much more will this effect the midmajor programs with tighter budgets and less wiggle room. IT WILL BE A FACTOR VERY SOON...just watch.

Uhhhhh...how is talking about possible conference realignments not related to football? Read man, read!

Exactly. We must remember that travel costs are related to the entire athletic program, not just football. All of our teams (how many do we have now?) must travel to Florida and Alabama...it's ridiculous. I would like to see the travel costs for the entire program this next year compared to 5 years ago. It will be like comparing night and day. And, for the midmajors, there is no way to recover those expenses by raising ticket prices. There is a ceiling on how much the consumer is willing to pay...a consumer that is already getting plastered from every direction. When ADs are forced to cut staff because of travels costs, then you will begin to see the Houston pres call the UNT pres and say, "If ya'll are tired of flying to Florida, we're tired of flying to West Virginia and the East Coast...let's do something about this!"

Rush hour traffic exists because people have to go to work. That is a different argument than talking about travel costs for college athletic programs...where there is a CHOICE. I think we will hear discussions soon from ADs who are trying to make the balance sheet balance! School districts are running out of transportation funds. Police departments are running out of funds for fueling up their cars. This is more serious for public organizations than most people realize.

Sorry about the poor spelling in the subject line...just saw it.

Gas prices keep rising with no end in sight. Travel costs must be weighing on AD's minds like never before. When will gas prices figure into the equation of conference alignment? Something tells me that it will be soon. If gas goes to $5.00 a gallon and stays around there, I think we will see renewed talks and interest in tight regional conferences (and bowl affiliations) as opposed to the craziness we now have. It may be one of the only positive things to come out of this energy mess. Has anyone seen any discussion on this anywhere? I've been too busy to keep up.

Exactly my point...change is going to happen. Economics will force change to happen...across all facets of society

Don't be so quick to count out a "new southwest conference". There is one factor today that many ego-ridden schools were not counting on when they made some of these far-flung conferences years ago...energy prices and a sluggish economy. How long will it be before state governments (with ever-shrinking budgets) decide to intervene? How long will it be before legislation requires conservation practices that put limits on travel at state institutions. I tell you that it is not in the long distant future, but possibly around the corner. Not only are state governments forced with making tough decisions, alums are going to cry out with their non-attendance for games matching programs too far away to travel. How many on this board would not attend away games out of state (or 2 states over) if gas goes to $4.00 a gallon or higher?! It has got to have an impact on the future shape of college athletics. Now, the major power houses with private funding out the wazoo, it may not effect them. But, how can you justify mid-major schools in texas playing schools in florida, when there are closer options? Even the federal govt (loans and grants) can get involved in such decisions if they finally put two and two together and realize that a major factor in the ever increasing cost of higher education is increasing student fees as an underhanded way of keeping up with increasing costs in the athletic arms race.

Exactly. Costs for team travel is going up exponentially. Who can justify midmajors playing across the country when they can play a school of equal athletic stature within a short drive. I really look to state governments to get involved. Coordination (and new laws) in fuel conservation measures within state institutions are in our near future. It may very well be this gas crisis that forces the hand of ego-driven schools to use common sense. The thing that makes the difference is that presidents of institutions now have (or will have) the rational that they need to do what they would like to have done a long time ago, but were prevented by deep pocket alums who prevent local matchups. Before it is over, even TCU may be looking for a change and join the group that I look to come together. If oil goes to $200 a barrel like many in the industry are predicting, we are looking at a major cultural shift that will effect all aspects of our lives...including this one.

I haven't been on here in a while. So, I guess I can assume from the posts that we still have not secured the money for the stadium. I thought the money being spent on the detailed plans meant that the money was secured. Disappointing. I worked at UNT during the last stadium fee thing and it wasn't pretty. I don't think it will work unless the BOR just does it. I still doubt that such a move is legal, but I don't have any direct experience with that. We really need our TBOONE PICKENS, don't we? The trouble is that during tough economic times, it becomes very unlikely to get such a donor. It is bad pub to give to such causes when people are hurting. During times like these, big donors usually give to causes that alleviate real suffering. The fundraiser in me says that this stadium is not going to happen for a long time, though I really hope that I am wrong. It would have been nice if we could have gotten this thing done as a part of our bowl appearences several years ago. We missed a great time to strike while the iron is hot, I'm afraid.

So, we do have a donor to design the thing...that's wonderful in itself.

What am I missing? We are budgeting 300K for the architectural firm? To design the whole project...not just a model for fundraising? Did we get the donor(s) to start this thing? Are we getting student fees? What gives? Typically the plans would not be drawn until the funds are secured...so I am assuming that we now have the funds? For 300K, this is definitely not just a model to be used for fundraising or to get a vote for student fees. These are the plans to build the thing! I just don't understand not having an announcement that we have secured the necessary funds. I want to believe it, but just can't let myself until I see the big announcement, unless the donor wants to keep it on the QT.

Exactly. I have had many similar experiences. I got an education completely on my own...not one cent from my parents or anyone. I worked 2 jobs while going to school all the way through my masters. Many, many nights with little sleep and working all the time while others were playing and hanging out. My wife and I now provide piano lessons, voice lessons, and extra tutoring for our children to help them move ahead academically and prepare for the future. My 6th grade son reads at a college level because we exposed him to intensive reading opportunties at an early age. We model correct grammer and communication to our children so that they don't talk like the family that I came from (very hick). The reason is that I say all of this is because I too have been accused of being part of the "upper privilaged" because our family lives this way, and those accusers (many of them miniority) are shocked when I tell them that I grew up with no air conditioning and only wood for heat and raising 95% of our food...in houses that most middle class folks would be embarrassed to live in. That's what UNT is all about damn it. People need to take advantage of their opportunities and make their world different if they want to live a different kind of life. What a lot of minorities (and other poor folks) don't understand is that in many ways the professional work will cater to them and move them up as high as they want to climb, if they will just get their education and produce at work! There are now no excuses. It's all about personal choice.

I really think in the case of North Texas, it will increase attendance substantially. Fouts is not just old, it is a horrible design. Fans truly do not feel a part of the game. I find myself watching the big screen more than I do the real game because the seats are so dang far away from the field. I find myself refraining from yelling at times because the sound doesn't actually catch with others' voices, because of the horrible accoustics. The crowd noise, instead of "gathering" on the field like at other stadiums just goes straight up into space. It's ridiculous. It really discourages fans from getting excited about coming to the stadium. I have heard high school crowds of 10,000 at other stadiums sound louder than 25K at Fouts...not because we weren't yelling but because of the above problem. Build it and they will come will work for UNT.

I have refrained from posting until I could soak all of this in and get a feel for what is really going on. You must read RVs comments carefully. They have money to design the thing. They do not have money to build it...or even announce that we are building it. When we get the big-daddy donor who comes forward with a 20-30 million dollar gift, we won't have to guess about this process. There will then be a media announcment and celebration...AKA T. Boone Pickens! We don't have that yet. We are designing the project so that we can truly start the fundraising process. Everyone really needs to cool their jets. The only other thing that could speed this up is a student fee that is pushed through to fund it. I am not getting too worked up about this.

Exactly, good grief folks, we were playing a school that NOONE has heard of. Most folks were out of town, and no I am not going to break my plans and leave my family that I rarely get to spend time with on a Saturday in order to drive 3 hours back to Denton to sit in the cold rain and watch a 1-9 team play on Thanksgiving weekend! And, I will not accept the accusations from some on this board who want to paint everyone like me as slackers. ANY other midmajor school in a sorry conference with our record and playing a team like we were playing, in weather conditions like we had, would have experienced the SAME thing! We just need to get over it. It was ONE sorry football weekend. It does not reflect the whole program or our bright future. If you were able to make it to the game without risking life and limb and without neglecting your family on an important holiday weekend, then good for you...I'm happy that it all worked out for you.

Of course he would never give any credit to a Sunbelt team for beating them in a completely hostile environment. It had nothing to do with ULM's determination, grit or preparedness. It could not be any of those things because teams from the Sunbelt aren't worthy to even be on the same field with a mighty SEC team. I love all of the upsets! Let 'em keep coming! Sooner or later the underdogs are going to beat the "topdogs" enough, that it won't even make headlines anymore. Then maybe some of the networks will reevaluate some of their TV contracts with such conferences and "cut 'em down to size."