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First, you need a new bit. The cookie shtick is tired just like the rest of your routine. Sorry, I just refuse to roll over or fetch every time RV scratches my belly. And, yes, I was a volunteer rep until this year. I simply got tired of trying to convince people to spend their hard earned money on a product the seller isn't willing to stand behind. I have a conscience. I just couldn't continue selling a ride on a Carnival cruise ship that the corporate office win't bother to clean up before setting it back out on the water. Maybe you're comfortable with that...more power to ya. And I'm also just a little perplexed by the idea of asking people who have full time jobs, kids, hobbies, etc to do the job of a staffer who gets PAID to do that same job 40 hours a week. I'm not arguing that it hasn't seen some success, every step you take above ground zero is a plus. I'm just saying it's akin to the Ford dealer asking you to be a "volunteer Pinto salesman". If your product aint selling because it will blow up in your face (Benford, Dodge, Stephens) it doesn't matter who you get to push it. Of course, in your case, you'd honestly ask the hospitalized burn victims "why don't you buy ANOTHER Pinto...aren't you a good Ford fan!!!?" And you're absolutely right about one thing. It is a choice. NT continues to choose not to do what's necessary to fix the problems...and people choose to stay home and write off NT athletics as irrelevant. But hey, let's thump our chests about having "the third highest attendance in the SUN BELT". Anyone know of a kids jump rope team that's about 500 strong...we've got a game tomorrow. As long as we use bottom of the barrel as the standard we'll be sittin pretty! Only at North Texas

Promises which foreseeably induce reliance on the part of the promisee will often be enforceable with out consideration (a necessary element for a contract). This is known as the doctrine of promissory estoppel, see Restatement (Second) of Contracts §90. It is immaterial that UNT fans never signed a physical contract. Also, the promise does not even need to be an express promise (although I think we can argue there was an express promise in this case). First, As UNT fans we would need to prove that UNT made a promise to us. The promise must be clear and unambiguous. Emmitt says the AD billed this team as the most talented team in UNT history. I think this is clear promise that this would be a team worth paying hard earned money for and a team that could put a ton of Ws on the board and bring general excitement to the otherwise painful sports life of a UNT fan. Second, there must be reliance by the party to whom the promise is made. Here, there is reliance on fans. We bought season tickets, donate to the school, buy generic UNT basketball shirts, tailgate during women's games, all in reliance on the promise that UNT gave us that this would be the most talented team in school history. Third, the reliance must be reasonable and forseeable. I think the AD would concede that it would be foreseeable that we would go bonkers (sorry for my legalese) for this upcoming season. I think we had post talking about how we could get ranked. It should not come to a surprise to them that their promise of memorable season would induce our reliance. Fourth, and most importantly, the party asserting promissory estoppel must be injured be reliance. Damages here range from loss of money from season tickets to emotional damages, sever emotional damages (punitive damages anyone?). So what is our remedy? Basic reliance remedy is to put the promisee: in as good as position as he would have been had the promise never been made or to reimburse the party for loss caused by reliance. Here, to hopefully settle this case before a nasty trial, I think all of us on GMG.com would rather be placed in the position we be in had the promise never been made. I think an strong argument can be made that his means we need to bet put in a place PRE BENFORD since part of the promise was hinged on Benford being coach. It follows, that if we were going to be placed in the same position we were pre promise, then that means we will be placed in a position with out Benford. - 1L who is procrastinating his actual work. Note: Let me know if you want to hear my alternate theory- the strict tort liabilities of manufacturing defect and design defect in this years team.

Yes, if only George Odufuwa were playing as many minutes this year as he did last year. And weren't CJ and Holman around for the D2 debacle? Didn't they play in the game against a vastly depleted WKU? How are you not dizzy from all of the spin you keep trying to put on things? This was a bad hire....it just was. The fact that we don't have an administration willing (or perhaps able) to rectify the problem won't change the fact that next year is FAR from assured of being better. And trying to deflect the legitimate concerns of...try to stay with me...THE PEOPLE YOU KEEP TRYING TO BROW BEAT INTO BUYING TICKETS AND GIVING EVEN MORE THAN THEY ALREADY DO...is insulting. We have the third highest attendance in the almighty Sun Belt? Wow. How many of these are season ticket holders who don't want to see already purchased tickets go to waste? How many of those season tickets were purchased because of the success of the old coaching staff....and because of the promises that the VERY SAME athletic department was all too willing to put out there. "Most talented team in NT history" wasn't my creation, or UNT90's, or Tasty's, or CMJ's. Nope, it came from the same folks over on Bonnie Brae who you are all too eager to defend. If they created the "pre-season hype" that we aren't supposed to believe, and you obviously agree it was overblown...are you now saying we shouldn't trust them? Seems that way to me. And if you're saying we shouldn't trust them, then surely we can't be wrong to question their judgement in coach hires or to have little faith that bad hires will be rectified. Thanks KRAM...I couldn't have laid that part out any better myself.

Love me? Can I strut around with my green peacock feathers now? But seriously, when I came on this board nearly five years ago, somebody told me that I would make lifelong friends following UNT athletics. For all the trials, tribulations, losses, crappy uniforms, and arguments we go through, I am so glad I chose UNT for grad school, and I'm thankful for all of you that I've met through this thing we call sports. We fight, we call each other names, we challenge each other, but we all strive for the same thing, and we eat, we drink, we weep in the common cause. I'd have this no other way. Cheers, Mean Green Nation!

Ummm you're the one who brought up Johnny Jones, not I. And if you don't think you often are calling people out in your posts, I have nothing to say. Nearly every one of them basically argues that we need to step in line and follow the company line without question. I love NT just as much as you do Kram. I really do. Just like I am sure the folks on meanandgreenfreeforums love it as much us both of us. It's all a matter of how we all look at things through different lenses. Some folks are bitter towards everything, but it doesn't mean they care less. You will look for the silver lining in any situation. Hell, in the past I have been acussed on this very board for being too optimistic and pessimistic (sometimes in the same damn thread). I think I am a optimistic realist. I prefer to look at the good, but I'll call a spade a spade when I see it. And right now, I don't see Benford as anything but a disaster.

Homosexuals being assaulted, or even kicked out of their own family never happens? That's good.

1) I remember an interview of Rick Neuheisel right after he was fired from UCLA. He said that each school's administrators (not the athletic department, mind you, but the BOR, Chancellors, Presidents, etc) decide what level they want to compete at, what kind of success rate they want, then fund their programs accordingly. Some administrations publicly demand one level of success while funding it at another. At the time, UCLA was proclaiming publicly that they should be beating USC, but they were funding their program at far lower levels than USC. It didn't make sense to demand success from the coach when the school wasn't giving him the budget to truly compete. At UNT, we almost never hear any public demands from our administration (and maybe that tells us all we need to know, really). However, we can tell from our budget at what level our admins more or less expect us to compete. If we cannot come up with the buyout money, or some creative solution to get Benford out, it means that our Administration is content with a losing basketball program until the cost of removal reaches their desired level. Obviously they will hope for better returns, but inaction means that $1.2 million is too high a figure to come up with. Relative to what our competition has recently paid for buyouts or salaries, that will show you where they expect us to compete. 2) I've never seen Berglund play. I have no idea just how much better he is than DT, McNulty, etc. However, I have seen what a DMac coached defense looks like over the course of his 30+ year career. I have more faith in his ability to produce better results from our defense when he has a full stable of defensive backs to complement our very good LB corps and improving Dline. I think a dominating defense as the anchor to this team could get us to .500 single handedly. Hell, I lived through the DD years, so I KNOW this to be true. If Berglund gives us a difference maker at QB, that's icing on the cake. I think I'm more or less agreeing with you, no?

So what I'm taking from this article is that players would rather give up basketball than play for Benford.

How does the Benford fiasco prove anything? What it proves to me is that RV went all in on a bold move, hiring a young high profile C7 assistant and flopped. If we fire Benford, many more seasons of 5 home games are ahead of us and God forbid Mac implodes we have no money to rid ourselves of him. Once again, we aren't UT. RV is probably on a short leash, but of all his misfires, he's made up for them in other ways. Our D was good enough to get us to 4-8 and showed off moments of brilliance with a piss poor QB and an absence of wide receivers. What's to make you think that we can't get to 6-6 with an immensely more talented QB and an easier schedule?

Mean Green Fans Psychiatric Helpline - $ .50 cents Breach of contract? No, you did not sign any such contract. False advertising? What's false about it? Going into the season we had the most talent in UNT history. Players that is. Can I recoup for mental anguish? No. The fact that you have been a UNT follower for so long suggests that you have accepted mental anguish as part of the Mean Green fan package.

For sure. Actual reading, and comprehension are certainly different. But often times, people will alter their arguments, key on one particular point and neglect others, or just flat-out change the point, then accuse another person's "reading comprehension" when that person is trying to keep up with the changing path. I just think it's a thinly veiled, petty way of saying, "you're dumb, I'm smart". Pass the Kool-aid!!

If so, his name is Brock Berglund. If no, Lord help us all.

I wonder if Kram had been a UNM alum back when Locksley was destroying their football program would he have been defending him with as much fervor as he's now doing with Benford? That situation, like this one, was an obvious disaster from game 1. It takes some serious blind loyalty to not see that. I expect that Kram is not blind, but would never say anything negative about the program publicly. Kind of like George Dunham---until getting outed by Craig Miller last week. At some point, though, you've got to know your audience. Nobody on this board wants to hear about next year. UNT basketball is no longer marketable for next season---esp to those on this board. If Benford returns, it's going to take wins, and wins alone to get that back. Maybe if we hadn't recently lived through the Trilli years...the Dodge years...the Stephens years...it'd be different. We have TOO MUCH DAMNED EXPERIENCE watching terrible coaches here that we can spot them a mile away and have been burned too recently that the scabs are still fresh from the last one.

I predict we will all come to an agreement on page 7 of this thread.

Thanks Oldguy....your support is both appreciated and needed. Thank you!

This "bold move" was a reversal of field from the "Only candidates with head coaching experience will be considered" mantra that he fed us all when we wondered why one of JJ's assistants wasn't being considered. Apparently he meant that only THAT candidate without head coaching experience wouldn't be considered. And while we're trotting out the tired "we just can't afford it" line that has been a North Texas staple for A LONG LONG TIME (even with changes in budget mind you) ask yourself this question. What is the cost, in both dollars and public faith, of allowing an abject failure of a coach to remain on the bench? All of the people who you've approached, or will approach, about season tickets, donations, MGC memberships, etc are supposed to buy in when there is imperical evidence that we won't hold coaches to an equally high standard? Not only are you not able to sell wins...you're expecting people to "give more...bitch less" in the face of no hope of winning on the horizon? Wow, just wow. We all get a letter in the mail asking us to renew our MGC membership by a certain date. In fact, we're given "enticements" if we renew early. The athletic department expects us to give support, above and beyond giving up our time and ticket money to attend games. That bar is set and we're asked to reach it every single year. But we should accept that those who are PAID to put a good product on the court/field have some immunity due to budget concerns? Well, this begs some questions for me and they're all inter-related. 1)Who gave these coaches these long term high paying contracts? 2)How was no thought given to the possibility that the hire might not be a home run, if a contract is a virtual marriage in NT's case? 3)If budget truly is the overarching consideration when it comes to coaching changes (and not success for instance) then isn't there someone who is PAID to fundraise and find more folks to but tickets and join the MGC? Or are we leaving this all to our volunteer reps and word of mouth? 4)If we are truly doomed to the catch 22 of "people won't buy in if you don't win and you can't win if people don't buy in" then why are we attempting D1 athletics? Sounds to me like North Texas athletics staffer is the best job on the planet. Failure to produce isn't seen by many because your fanbase is so small...and failure to grow the fanbase is forgiven by those who DO give because...wait for it...you're the victim of financial woes caused by the small fanbase. Truly only at North Texas.

I will return to the basketball forum when the basketball team returns to basketball.

It just goes to show you the luck of North Texas. We are unfortunate enough to have the "most talented North Texas team in history" the exact same year that Alabama Huntsville and the entire Sunbelt Conference have their most talented teams in their history...

Is UNT one player away from a noticeable level of improvement? I will admit I haven’t suffered the long term UNT frustration most are going through, but I am a University of Kansas grad so I do understand football futility. Last year’s UNT’s core group of players had the ability to look respectable verse LSU and played really well against Kansas State. Curious to hear thoughts on would a Lance Dunbar type player being on last year’s team provided a 7-8 win team? Would a player of TY Hilton’s ability have a significant impact on next year’s team? I recall reading about the “Flutie Effect” on BC’s rise in applications for enrollment, donations, ticket sales and overall brand following 1983 Heisman Trophy year. In recent time I look at Cam Newton at Auburn and what Johnny Football has done at Texas A&M. There is no doubt that the Johnny effect will bolster TAMU’s recruiting pipeline for the next few years as well as (ticket & merchandise sales, alumni donations, etc.)…lord knows it’s improved their athletic programs brand. I personally see improvement between the Dodge and MAC programs…. I’m hoping UNT is that “one” player away from making a significant difference.

Is Malik Dilonga or Brad Horton expected to make a big contribution this year? Got to love their size.

Hey Harry Any chance there will be a pre-Spring game podcast followed by a post-Spring game podcast?

I don't think we even need a good QB to get 7 wins. We need an average one. One that won't toss the ball 20 yards over WRs heads into the stands when you need a TD. That was my "Derek Thompson play of infamy"

I think you've got it backwards here. We need a threat of an effective passing game to take the pressure off of the run game. Teams loaded up the box last year and dared us to throw. Either Thompson's lack of accuracy or our WR's inability to run a proper route, probably a little of both, killed us.

We hope they begin to contribute. I would expect the majority of the playing time to go to Sarge, Bellazin and the Juco transfer Brown. Welcome to the board. Student, alumni or just a fan?

I think the SEC will stay at 14 for now. They have no reason to increase ... it only futher divides the pot and more teams would just break up more regional rivalries into separate divisions. If the Big 10 grabs two from the ACC ... the ACC could sit or add two from the Big East. The Big East would need to grab one or two teams from CUSA or maybe MAC. Big 12 could sit tight. All of this will happen ... or not.

Things had digressed so far that the internal bickering amongst two different factions had completely replaced any actual discussion about Mean Green Basketball.

I think we may be one player away from being one player away.

With 3 returning starters from the same line and several guys who saw time last year...

Wow. I mean our line's been pretty good, but are you aware of what our offense did against Troy? And most of last season?

If that one person can both sack the QB, stuff the run, and intercept about 8 passes this year then yeah. Unfortunately that will take around 3 to 4 more great players. Our defense needs a revamping.

That would never happen. He wouldn't do anything to hurt UNT or its buildings.

what exactly is going on here?

I think you guys kind of touched on this but to sort of combine what a lot of the last few posts have said...it's a vicious cycle. With more money, they could do things like buy out contracts, schedule differently, etc...which could lead to more wins, but without better performance in that area, it's hard to solicit more money. Luckily, we are no longer in as poor a position as previously, where donations were discouraged or flat-out refused (as many of us discussed a couple of years back). Actually, with the exception of winning performances from money sports, the entire environment and sphere of involvement, excitement, and spirit has been on a huge upswing in recent years. On the other hand, though the tone of posts like Emmitt's and Aquila's and others' may seem a bit negative, that doesn't mean they're wrong. There is still much to be done, and it can be frustrating when you see the goals we either have or should have and don't see achievement in certain areas. I would hope that there is less shortsightedness than may seem present at times, and that those in the offices at UNT understand that those same goals are necessary; however, it may be new ideas for solutions that may be what is missing. Aside from things like personnel issues that are being debated after the fact, what are some long-term ideas for growth of ticket sales, fanbase, revenue increase, etc. that haven't been discussed in an official setting yet? By brainstorming ideas like we've done off-and-on here, but actually putting them together in one package and continuing to submit new ones, we could hit on a couple of gems that get our momentum moving at an even faster pace. Plus, if it's done in coordination with what we do outside of GMG.com, it could be discussed and expanded by the groups we're involved with. So if it comes from Alumni Group A, Student Organization B, and Staff Groups X and Y, then it couldn't be dismissed as "just internet banter". Just a few thoughts for taking our "issues" to the next level...and possibly, eventually, some real solutions for improvement aside from what has already been tried.

if people can blame Bush for a hurricane I'm blaming Benford

One of the worst three wins?

I got to watch the 2nd half of the Mac vs Coppell game. Coppell won 52-38(?) I believe Shine is athletic. I'm just not sure where he fits in on the DI level. Not really a guard & little undersized to play the 3,4. That's just from 10 minutes of observation. Maybe Cooley has seen more of him & can chime in. Also saw him play @ GASO, but I was more focused on Swoops & didn't really watch him

Come on now...don't start this "all hat and no cattle" stuff again! Who said anything about "bad fans"? Fans are fans...that's the challenge at UNT...too many "fans", too few folks actually invested in their university. Big difference. Fans are not good or bad...they are fans...they come and go as the wagon rolls. It is what it is...can't build your program on those folks...all entertainment dollars to them and very fungible. A program can use all the fans it can get, but they cannot be counted on to be the base on which the program is built for the long term. When times are good, these folks pony up to support the program, when times are a bit more "challenging" well, off they go. They are fans after all. Cannot blame them but they cannot be counted on either for the long haul. Is what it is....personal decision. Not good...not bad...a decision none the less.

None of the above...just plain dumb post. You need cookies!

I like the one comment... "Welcome to The Big House"

I really wish none of the above were an option.

But with exception of Chris Davis, it was talent that helped other schools like Texas, Okie State and whatever D2 school Dexter Tennell ended up at.

Yes, Coach Lama has done a spectacular job and the team just keeps getting better and better. The current group of students he has are all absolutely amazing ladies that are equally skilled athletically and academically. Great things are ahead for this group. They've already been conference champs. They've already been nationally ranked. Time to perform well at the NCAA's. Why not the Mean Green?! Go get 'em!

Wouldn't this be more appropriate for the U of Miami?

Every time this comes up I have to remind people that UNT was the original choice of the administration back in 61. Some UT graduates either in the House or Senate took offense at our proposed name change, and threatened to filibuster the bill as written. NTSU was the compromise name.......but again, not our (1961) administrators' preference.

Next year is going to be epic.

This doesn't have anything to do with anything you are talking about. This has nothing to do with anything like paying the countries bills or any other problem our government is dealing/ notdealing with, not everything ties into the, "America is a sinking ship" narrative people love to talk about. I do think you are right though, it's not that big of a deal. The guy is gay, so what, that's how we SHOULD look at it. It should not be a big deal in this day and age if a person is gay or straight, why should we care. He's just another retired player that came out after he walked away, nothing groundbreaking.

This made the forum because it is historic. The four deaths didn't because sadly, people are murdered everyday. How many other professional athletes have had the courage to reveal they are homosexual during their playing career?

http://www.wfaa.com/sports/headlines/Mean-Green-Hoops-191300261.html

Looks pretty F'in good on the tail of an F/A-18. Your argument is invalid.

With an undercover vice cop.