Western Kentucky (12/29/12)

Folks love to come here and spout about the job RV is doing using their myoptic glasses and always forgetting the resources provided by both the university and the fan base that RV has available to him. Sure, they point to the big three coaching hires and forget entirely about everything else that goes on within a program like UNT's where the supporters love to talk but hate to open the pocketbook save for a few...very few. Yes, the big three sports are critical, and no one denies that, but do not think for one moment that the level of support provided plays a big role in what does and does not go on with the UNT Athletic program. Just as UNT90 said in an earlier post, one best be careful what they ask for...or they might just get it. You can say it for coaching changes and you can say it for AD's.

Want to talk big three...fine, let's see....lots of folks continue to praise the hiring of Petersen, Mac seems to have the ship heading in the right direction ( yes, perhaps a year later than folks would have liked, but does seem that 2013 holds high hopes for improved win totals). And, then there is Benford....seems to me that the jury is "still out" as this is year one. So, let's just grant that year one has not gone as most of us would have hoped or expected in year one, but it is year one.

So, knowing what the fan base provides in support, the small cadre of season ticket buyers, the lack of support for the Mean Green Club, this UNT AD job is probably a lot tougher than some realize. I seriously doubt that everyone knows how many potential football and basketball head coaching prospects were talked to before the hires were made. These folks know how a school is supported...or in UNT's case...hardly supported given it's alumni base size...and that certainly can play into decisions when potential hires have choices to make.

For me, I like the Petersen hire a good bit and think the women's team is on the right track, I support Mac and think 2013 will be a break-out year for the Mean Green, and I am more than willing to be a tad patient with Benford. I happen to think this team might be better with T Mitch in the NBA. Why? Well, simply put, the supporting cast would not have him to rely on and would have to rely more on each other...which I happen to think they would. The cupboard is certainly not bear after T Mitch leaves for the NBA.

Call it a chicken or egg thing if you wish ..... Win more and folks will give more and buy more tickets rather than give more and use the increased resources to create a better program and more wins, but support matters....in up years and in down years, support matters.

As a case in point, one long time supporter withdrew from season ticket purchases and from Mean Green Club membership this last year, but still considers himself a true fan and supporter of the Mean Green. OK, personal choice, but hard to take the criticism from such folks who no longer have a dog in the hunt other than an emotional one these days. Just one example, there are far too many like this around the UNT program to even count. People always like to say they want UNT to be "BIG TIME" and to compete with the big boys....well, me too, but let me ask an honest question...how can UNT ever even hope to be big time without the support from its fan base and alumni? Folks, it is simply not going to happen. Either get happy with what it is and the pace of progress we see, or become part of the solution and support this program with season ticket purchases, Mean Green Club memberships and by showing up to support the program in lean times as well as good times. That is a lot to ask...I know...and those that do hang in there deserve recognition and they deserve to see the progress...so, the spot UNT finds itself in with the big three programs is definitely not the fault of the fan base alone...no way...but, it is part of the equation.

Yep, I support this AD and I support this program. And, I take no back seat in that support nor am I alone in this support. It might just surprise some folks as to how much support this AD does have these days and where that support comes from, but, be that as it may, everyone is free to have the opinions they have....just understand that if you call for changes, better be prepared for what you might just get....AND, no...I do not know his personal cell phone number, have never shared a meal with him one on one, have never received any personal favors from him, have never seen the inside of his home...every game ticket I have possessed I have either purchased or "won" through volunteer work for the program or Mean Green Club...so, if it is like some seem to think that I am some personal sidekick of the AD's you are sadly mistaken. Like many of us, I know the man and like many of us, I like the guy and hope he stays at UNT for as long as he wishes, and I believe he has and is very good for UNT...and not just within the Athletic program. But, I was also a donor and supporter long before RV came, and God willing I'll be around and capable of supporting the Mean Green afte as well.

You can't do this. Was Dodge then Gretchen's hire?

RV gets credit for the good hires and blame for the bad. That is the nature of the job. RV supporters come on here and say "he wasn't responsible for shanice or Dodge," well, that's BS, just as those who say Rawlins was responsible for the Mac hire are full of it.

RV is the AD. He hires and fires coaches. Plain and simple.

Was there not a nationwide search, run by Chuck Neinas' consulting firm, to find and hire Dan McCarney? Fine. If we're talking strictly black and white, Todd Dodge owns one of the 20 worst coaching records in the history of Div. 1 football. Maybe we're over-reacting, but Benford appears on his way to dismantling our basketball program. Those hires were program killers. They were not just bad hires, or good hires that just couldn't produce enough wins. They are program killers. If the AD is the final say and owns those hires, how does he survive those mistakes?

Obviously, the stadium completion provided a buffer for the Dodge fiasco. What is looming out there now that can provide shelter this time?

I like RV. I'm not saying that I want him fired. I've been around long enough to remember the good and bad from the Helwig era. What I don't get, though, is how RV is considered untouchable by our BOR. If Benford can't turn it around, I just don't see how (as has been mentioned twice in this thread) RV's job is not questioned---or at the very least, question allowing him to hire the next basketball coach.

Edited December 31, 2012 by TIgreen01

I hope your right, KRAM. I really hope he realizes this mistake and at least tries to correct it after this season.

Nothing wrong with making a mistake, Just as long as one acknowledges it and corrects it at the earliest opportunity.

Folks love to come here and spout about the job RV is doing using their myoptic glasses and always forgetting the resources provided by both the university and the fan base that RV has available to him. Sure, they point to the big three coaching hires and forget entirely about everything else that goes on within a program like UNT's where the supporters love to talk but hate to open the pocketbook save for a few...very few. Yes, the big three sports are critical, and no one denies that, but do not think for one moment that the level of support provided plays a big role in what does and does not go on with the UNT Athletic program. Just as UNT90 said in an earlier post, one best be careful what they ask for...or they might just get it. You can say it for coaching changes and you can say it for AD's.

Want to talk big three...fine, let's see....lots of folks continue to praise the hiring of Petersen, Mac seems to have the ship heading in the right direction ( yes, perhaps a year later than folks would have liked, but does seem that 2013 holds high hopes for improved win totals). And, then there is Benford....seems to me that the jury is "still out" as this is year one. So, let's just grant that year one has not gone as most of us would have hoped or expected in year one, but it is year one.

So, knowing what the fan base provides in support, the small cadre of season ticket buyers, the lack of support for the Mean Green Club, this UNT AD job is probably a lot tougher than some realize. I seriously doubt that everyone knows how many potential football and basketball head coaching prospects were talked to before the hires were made. These folks know how a school is supported...or in UNT's case...hardly supported given it's alumni base size...and that certainly can play into decisions when potential hires have choices to make.

For me, I like the Petersen hire a good bit and think the women's team is on the right track, I support Mac and think 2013 will be a break-out year for the Mean Green, and I am more than willing to be a tad patient with Benford. I happen to think this team might be better with T Mitch in the NBA. Why? Well, simply put, the supporting cast would not have him to rely on and would have to rely more on each other...which I happen to think they would. The cupboard is certainly not bear after T Mitch leaves for the NBA.

Call it a chicken or egg thing if you wish ..... Win more and folks will give more and buy more tickets rather than give more and use the increased resources to create a better program and more wins, but support matters....in up years and in down years, support matters.

As a case in point, one long time supporter withdrew from season ticket purchases and from Mean Green Club membership this last year, but still considers himself a true fan and supporter of the Mean Green. OK, personal choice, but hard to take the criticism from such folks who no longer have a dog in the hunt other than an emotional one these days. Just one example, there are far too many like this around the UNT program to even count. People always like to say they want UNT to be "BIG TIME" and to compete with the big boys....well, me too, but let me ask an honest question...how can UNT ever even hope to be big time without the support from its fan base and alumni? Folks, it is simply not going to happen. Either get happy with what it is and the pace of progress we see, or become part of the solution and support this program with season ticket purchases, Mean Green Club memberships and by showing up to support the program in lean times as well as good times. That is a lot to ask...I know...and those that do hang in there deserve recognition and they deserve to see the progress...so, the spot UNT finds itself in with the big three programs is definitely not the fault of the fan base alone...no way...but, it is part of the equation.

Yep, I support this AD and I support this program. And, I take no back seat in that support nor am I alone in this support. It might just surprise some folks as to how much support this AD does have these days and where that support comes from, but, be that as it may, everyone is free to have the opinions they have....just understand that if you call for changes, better be prepared for what you might just get....AND, no...I do not know his personal cell phone number, have never shared a meal with him one on one, have never received any personal favors from him, have never seen the inside of his home...every game ticket I have possessed I have either purchased or "won" through volunteer work for the program or Mean Green Club...so, if it is like some seem to think that I am some personal sidekick of the AD's you are sadly mistaken. Like many of us, I know the man and like many of us, I like the guy and hope he stays at UNT for as long as he wishes, and I believe he has and is very good for UNT...and not just within the Athletic program. But, I was also a donor and supporter long before RV came, and God willing I'll be around and capable of supporting the Mean Green afte as well.

You complain, incessantly and justifiably, about people not giving enough. Let me ask you this though, do you honestly expect people to throw good money at bad?

If these people believe that the program isn't in good hands why then should there be some imperative for them to be financially supportive? Can I interest you in some Braniff Airlines stock? You know, if you'd just buy more airline tickets and be more financially supportive they'd be back in the game.

As someone who is soon to pledge money towards the baseball stadium I get where you're coming from...we do need donors. But I'm doing it because MY university needs baseball to remain relevant and competitive, certainly not because I think the arrow on our athletic department is pointed up. Long after the current administration is gone I'll be around. And it's DEFINITELY not because you continuously try to shame people into giving their money, and therefore tacit agreement, to the way things are right now.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. I think you're swell.

Edited January 1, 2013 by emmitt01

Anyone watching the coaching fallout in the NFL? Notice in a lot of cases the coach is terminated along with the General Manager. You know, the guy that was responsible for hiring the bad coach.

You complain, incessantly and justifiably, about people not giving enough. Let me ask you this though, do you honestly expect people to throw good money at bad?

If these people believe that the program isn't in good hands why then should there be some imperative for them to be financially supportive? Can I interest you in some Braniff Airlines stock? You know, if you'd just buy more airline tickets and be more financially supportive they'd be back in the game.

As someone who is soon to pledge money towards the baseball stadium I get where you're coming from...we do need donors. But I'm doing it because MY university needs baseball to remain relevant and competitive, certainly not because I think the arrow on our athletic department is pointed up. Long after the current administration is gone I'll be around. And it's DEFINITELY not because you continuously try to shame people into giving their money, and therefore tacit agreement, to the way things are right now.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. I think you're swell.

I believe that people who complain about a program not being good enough should do more than complain if they want anything to happen. I do not consider supporting my university ever to be "throwing good money after bad". Perhaps that explains some of the difference here. Folks who withdraw support from a university they say they want to improve are part of the problem not part of the solution. People who complain and want changes need to put their support where their mouths are, or perhaps consider closing their mouths. Yes, you will be around for a long time...as will I....and you will be a Mean Green Club member, a season ticket buyer and a donor outside the Mean Green Club. That cannot be said for some of our so-called fans. We have way to many of THOSE fans and far too few of YOU! And, that is the point I try to hammer home as often as I can.

Some folks don't like the fact that I do that...perhaps the point hits too close to home for these folks.....these same folks like to turn to belittling me for my support instead of looking in the mirror and considering their position. It is a lot easier to let "someone else do it" or to fall back on support they used to provide but no longer do for whatever reason...always easy to blame others rather than to face the hard facts.

And, I do have a Braniff stock certificate in my possession. Worst investment I ever made...I keep the certificate to remind me that investing is best done by one's brain and not by one's heart. How did you know that I owned some Braniff stock at one time? Ha! You been stalking me, Sarge, and sneaking around my home files? And, sure, I think you are swell too, you just bitch too much!

Just because you may not have have the most money and resources does not mean you have an excuse to have crappy hires. I am not saying you will hit every single time but the track record for NT is quite hideous.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Green Mean

Just because you may not have have the most money and resources does not mean you have an excuse to have crappy hires. I am not saying you will hit every single team but the track record for NT is quite hideous.

No one said anything about amounts...it is about support at the level one feels is appropriate for their own situation. Mean Green Club memberships start at $125.00 and recent grad memberships start at, I believe, $50. No one said anything about the "most money" or any level. Season ticket prices are extremely reasonable depending upon ones choice of seat locations for both football and basketball.

No one said anything about crappy hires and being happy or sad about it either. If you look across the board the record is definitely not hideous. It is not All about any single coach hire. And support should not depend upon a hire or two. It is about your university and whether one wants to be part of the solution or part of the problem.

If this opinion and position makes some folks feel uncomfortable, that is their personal situation to deal with. If the message hits a tad close to home for some, well, so be it. Don't blame the messenger.

Edited January 1, 2013 by KRAM1

I know this isn't popular opinion but even as a MGC member and season ticket holder, I don't buy the "you have to donate to criticize" or if you don't donate you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. The coaches and AD get paid good money to do a job and a public job at that. They know what they are getting into and criticism, especially well-deserved criticism goes with the territory. Every program has a larger percentage of fans who don't donate a single penny to the program. How come for us it is such a crutch? You think Northern Illinios has dough rolling into their program? Look at their record the past 10 years. I'm afraid to look it up but are we the worst football team the last eight years? Even Idaho went to a bowl game.

I'm not even talking about competing with the big boys of the collegiate football world, I'm talking about competing in the frickin Sun Belt. Is anybody really going to tell me that the reason we've had 8 non-winning seasons in the Sun Belt is because of money? Or because we don't have enough donors? Somebody isn't allowed to complain about losing because they don't donate?

I'm about the most reasonable fan going. I'm not a fan so I can have bragging rights over other people. I don't live or die by the actions of 18-22 year olds on a playing field. I'm a fan mostly because I love North Texas, have some great friends who I can hang out with at the game, and love college football. But even with being level headed, it's still competition and the point of the game is to win. And to watch year after year of bad football and then someone try to tell me the reason is money is just horseshit. Most Sun Belt schools don't have a pot to piss in and yet continually whip our ass. You think ULM and ASU or FIU are beating us because of money??

Hate to tell you this but you and I are neither part of the problem nor part of the solution. Unless you want to start giving T Boone level of money we are just nice little donors who get to see our names in the program. At the end of the day it's the Athletic Departments job to get more MGC members. I've been a fan for almost 20 years and in that 20 years I've done more than my part to get people involved. Time for the AD to do his.

Only in the myopic world of message boards is "i think we can, i think we can", a strategy for success.

And lastly, to say that the football program is turning around after a 4-8 season and all the holes we have is absolutely ridiculous. And that's from a guy who has been on board with Mac from the beginning.

I know this isn't popular opinion but even as a MGC member and season ticket holder, I don't buy the "you have to donate to criticize" or if you don't donate you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. The coaches and AD get paid good money to do a job and a public job at that. They know what they are getting into and criticism, especially well-deserved criticism goes with the territory. Every program has a larger percentage of fans who don't donate a single penny to the program. How come for us it is such a crutch? You think Northern Illinios has dough rolling into their program? Look at their record the past 10 years. I'm afraid to look it up but are we the worst football team the last eight years? Even Idaho went to a bowl game.

I'm not even talking about competing with the big boys of the collegiate football world, I'm talking about competing in the frickin Sun Belt. Is anybody really going to tell me that the reason we've had 8 non-winning seasons in the Sun Belt is because of money? Or because we don't have enough donors? Somebody isn't allowed to complain about losing because they don't donate?

I'm about the most reasonable fan going. I'm not a fan so I can have bragging rights over other people. I don't live or die by the actions of 18-22 year olds on a playing field. I'm a fan mostly because I love North Texas, have some great friends who I can hang out with at the game, and love college football. But even with being level headed, it's still competition and the point of the game is to win. And to watch year after year of bad football and then someone try to tell me the reason is money is just horseshit. Most Sun Belt schools don't have a pot to piss in and yet continually whip our ass. You think ULM and ASU or FIU are beating us because of money??

Hate to tell you this but you and I are neither part of the problem nor part of the solution. Unless you want to start giving T Boone level of money we are just nice little donors who get to see our names in the program. At the end of the day it's the Athletic Departments job to get more MGC members. I've been a fan for almost 20 years and in that 20 years I've done more than my part to get people involved. Time for the AD to do his.

Only in the myopic world of message boards is "i think we can, i think we can", a strategy for success.

And lastly, to say that the football program is turning around after a 4-8 season and all the holes we have is absolutely ridiculous. And that's from a guy who has been on board with Mac from the beginning.

Wow, good post.

Wow, good post.

Yep...thanks, Dozer.

I know this isn't popular opinion but even as a MGC member and season ticket holder, I don't buy the "you have to donate to criticize" or if you don't donate you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. The coaches and AD get paid good money to do a job and a public job at that. They know what they are getting into and criticism, especially well-deserved criticism goes with the territory. Every program has a larger percentage of fans who don't donate a single penny to the program. How come for us it is such a crutch? You think Northern Illinios has dough rolling into their program? Look at their record the past 10 years. I'm afraid to look it up but are we the worst football team the last eight years? Even Idaho went to a bowl game.

I'm not even talking about competing with the big boys of the collegiate football world, I'm talking about competing in the frickin Sun Belt. Is anybody really going to tell me that the reason we've had 8 non-winning seasons in the Sun Belt is because of money? Or because we don't have enough donors? Somebody isn't allowed to complain about losing because they don't donate?

I'm about the most reasonable fan going. I'm not a fan so I can have bragging rights over other people. I don't live or die by the actions of 18-22 year olds on a playing field. I'm a fan mostly because I love North Texas, have some great friends who I can hang out with at the game, and love college football. But even with being level headed, it's still competition and the point of the game is to win. And to watch year after year of bad football and then someone try to tell me the reason is money is just horseshit. Most Sun Belt schools don't have a pot to piss in and yet continually whip our ass. You think ULM and ASU or FIU are beating us because of money??

Hate to tell you this but you and I are neither part of the problem nor part of the solution. Unless you want to start giving T Boone level of money we are just nice little donors who get to see our names in the program. At the end of the day it's the Athletic Departments job to get more MGC members. I've been a fan for almost 20 years and in that 20 years I've done more than my part to get people involved. Time for the AD to do his.

Only in the myopic world of message boards is "i think we can, i think we can", a strategy for success.

And lastly, to say that the football program is turning around after a 4-8 season and all the holes we have is absolutely ridiculous. And that's from a guy who has been on board with Mac from the beginning.

I agree with a good bit of what you say here, and it is a reasonable response. But, I don't agree that always complaining while not giving is not part of the problem, nor do I agree that one needs Boone Pickens money to make a difference. With the number of alums UNT has...in the metroplex alone...if even 10 percent actually joined the Mean Green Club at various levels those dollars would go a long way in covering the costs of scholarships and free up lots of dollars within the Athletic Dept. budget. Those crying for a coaching change and understanding that there is not enough funds for such should understand this and realize that money IS indeed part of the problem. I doubt anyone here wants to aspire to be N. Illinois or Idaho or ULM for that matter. I don't, I want better for UNT.

But, like I said, you are correct in saying that it is a public job and criticism comes with the territory. People can certainly complain and well they do, but it rings hollow when one considers themselves a supporter when they are fully capable of supporting the program and choose not to do so...that's a decision one makes. Sort of like the folks who don't vote for some lame reason and then complain about how bad the elected officials are. Maybe that's OK as you say, but the criticism rings hollow and smacks of hypocrisy.

So, yes, criticize all you want about the program, about students wearing shirts from other schools on campus, about low attendance, about the fact that UNT doesn't have enough money to attract big time players and/or coaches or staffers, about message boards and sound systems in the Super Pit, about no baseball...but look in the mirror and see part of the problem.

The few can only do so much for the many who choose to ride the wagon while they wait for another Boone Pickens. Much smaller dollar amounts from a good number of supporters adds up to Boone Pickens dollars...or we can all wait for the next Boone...sort of like waiting to win the powerball lottery I guess. That works.

OK, said my peace here. No secret how I feel, so I'll leave it at this and move along to today's bowl games. Sure would like to see the Mean Green playing OSU in Dallas today....could happen one of these days.

I agree with a good bit of what you say here, and it is a reasonable response. But, I don't agree that always complaining while not giving is not part of the problem, nor do I agree that one needs Boone Pickens money to make a difference. With the number of alums UNT has...in the metroplex alone...if even 10 percent actually joined the Mean Green Club at various levels those dollars would go a long way in covering the costs of scholarships and free up lots of dollars within the Athletic Dept. budget. Those crying for a coaching change and understanding that there is not enough funds for such should understand this and realize that money IS indeed part of the problem. I doubt anyone here wants to aspire to be N. Illinois or Idaho or ULM for that matter. I don't, I want better for UNT.

But, like I said, you are correct in saying that it is a public job and criticism comes with the territory. People can certainly complain and well they do, but it rings hollow when one considers themselves a supporter when they are fully capable of supporting the program and choose not to do so...that's a decision one makes. Sort of like the folks who don't vote for some lame reason and then complain about how bad the elected officials are. Maybe that's OK as you say, but the criticism rings hollow and smacks of hypocrisy.

So, yes, criticize all you want about the program, about students wearing shirts from other schools on campus, about low attendance, about the fact that UNT doesn't have enough money to attract big time players and/or coaches or staffers, about message boards and sound systems in the Super Pit, about no baseball...but look in the mirror and see part of the problem.

The few can only do so much for the many who choose to ride the wagon while they wait for another Boone Pickens. Much smaller dollar amounts from a good number of supporters adds up to Boone Pickens dollars...or we can all wait for the next Boone...sort of like waiting to win the powerball lottery I guess. That works.

OK, said my peace here. No secret how I feel, so I'll leave it at this and move along to today's bowl games. Sure would like to see the Mean Green playing OSU in Dallas today....could happen one of these days.

Another way to show displeasure with what is going on is to stop giving money or stop buying season tickets. Not that I advocate either, as both are a personal decision.

But, with the current path that basketball is on, why would I re-up on season tickets next year when I can only make about half the games and, on the current path, I will be able to walk up and buy a $5 ticket and move down to where I sit now?

Trust me, it's a question I am asking myself. One I never thought I'd even consider this year.

Another way to show displeasure with what is going on is to stop giving money or stop buying season tickets. Not that I advocate either, as both are a personal decision.

But, with the current path that basketball is on, why would I re-up on season tickets next year when I can only make about half the games and, on the current path, I will be able to walk up and buy a $5 ticket and move down to where I sit now?

Trust me, it's a question I am asking myself. One I never thought I'd even consider this year.

Your one of those.....

Your one of those.....

Maybe. Put a sh!+ product on the floor and I just may be.

Better than being a basketball moron, don't you think?

A minus one...? I only meant I do not appreciate when people move down into my seat. I find it rude when they do. It is nothing less of thievery to me. Someone paid for those seats.

A minus one...? I only meant I do not appreciate when people move down into my seat. I find it rude when they do. It is nothing less of thievery to me. Someone paid for those seats.

Don't worry, by the time I do it next year, there will only be about 500 in attendance, so I won't offend.

I agree with a good bit of what you say here, and it is a reasonable response. But, I don't agree that always complaining while not giving is not part of the problem, nor do I agree that one needs Boone Pickens money to make a difference. With the number of alums UNT has...in the metroplex alone...if even 10 percent actually joined the Mean Green Club at various levels those dollars would go a long way in covering the costs of scholarships and free up lots of dollars within the Athletic Dept. budget. Those crying for a coaching change and understanding that there is not enough funds for such should understand this and realize that money IS indeed part of the problem. I doubt anyone here wants to aspire to be N. Illinois or Idaho or ULM for that matter. I don't, I want better for UNT.

But, like I said, you are correct in saying that it is a public job and criticism comes with the territory. People can certainly complain and well they do, but it rings hollow when one considers themselves a supporter when they are fully capable of supporting the program and choose not to do so...that's a decision one makes. Sort of like the folks who don't vote for some lame reason and then complain about how bad the elected officials are. Maybe that's OK as you say, but the criticism rings hollow and smacks of hypocrisy.

So, yes, criticize all you want about the program, about students wearing shirts from other schools on campus, about low attendance, about the fact that UNT doesn't have enough money to attract big time players and/or coaches or staffers, about message boards and sound systems in the Super Pit, about no baseball...but look in the mirror and see part of the problem.

The few can only do so much for the many who choose to ride the wagon while they wait for another Boone Pickens. Much smaller dollar amounts from a good number of supporters adds up to Boone Pickens dollars...or we can all wait for the next Boone...sort of like waiting to win the powerball lottery I guess. That works.

OK, said my peace here. No secret how I feel, so I'll leave it at this and move along to today's bowl games. Sure would like to see the Mean Green playing OSU in Dallas today....could happen one of these days.

You may want to be better than Northern Illinios but at this point I would love to have multiple 10 win seasons and playing in the Orange Bowl. And we may aspire to be better than ULM or ASU but the cold fact is that we aren't better and haven't been for a while. That isn't any donors fault. It's the AD and coaches fault.

I talk to people all the time about the MGC and/or bring them to the games and for the most part it is a tough sell because they see losing football and besides parking (which you only get if you give more) they don't see the MGC as a good deal. You and I may give no matter what but most people want to see something for their money. That's just the way it is and to not acknowledge that is just sticking your head in the UNT sand.

The truth is, the big donors move mountains, not "if only %10 gave at the minimum level". Not saying having a lot of smaller donors isn't a good thing, but it won't move North Texas to where you aspire it to be.

In the end my view is simple as this. If we were winning 8+ games a year, going to bowl games and having a new stadium and still had lackluster attendance and support, then that would be a fan/supporter problem. If we are one of the worst football programs in the country and complain about fans/supporters, that is a leadership problem.

I'm glad we have fans like KRAM, but I prefer to hold the people who get paid well to do their job accountable, not the people who actually give money to the program. Or people who don't give. Even if the people who don't give never complained, it still wouldn't change how the football program has performed. Or the BBall program this year (3 points in the first ten minutes last night!?).

Lastly, and only because this point makes me a little crazy, I didn't vote this year. My vote needs to be earned, I don't just pull the lever because somebody thinks I have to vote. I have that right and earned it by spending six years in the Marine Corps. Just in case that card is played.

Edited January 1, 2013 by meanrob

KRAM, you say people not giving money is part of the problem, what do you think is the other part of the problem, in your opinion? I just find it odd that considering the current state of our athletic department, the only people you call out are private citizens, so to speak, and their pocketbooks. I'm willing to bet there are very few people who loudly complain and don't buy tickets or donate. I'm positive there are plenty of sports fans and alums that don't care at all about UNT sports other than to look at a score every now and then and say "same ol' North Texas" and move on with their lives. At this point I wish we had more people who cared enough to complain. The problem isn't complainers, it's the state of the athletic department that has caused people to simply not care at all. A change in the W-L column will start to turn that around. It's the nature of sports here in the DFW area, you have to give the people something to care about first. Ask the Mavs and Rangers.

Lastly, and only because this point makes me a little crazy, I didn't vote this year. My vote needs to be earned, I don't just pull the lever because somebody thinks I have to vote. I have that right and earned it by spending six years in the Marine Corps. Just in case that card is played.

I spent my time in the Air Force (Vietnam era vet) and believe that those who served with me, before me and who now seve after me, and especially those who did not come home did plenty to EARN my vote. They paid the ultimate sacrifice so I could vote. That is all the "earning" I need to make sure I "pull that lever" at every opportunity I get.

And, thanks for your service. The few, the proud, the Marines! Well done, Marine....

Edited January 2, 2013 by KRAM1

KRAM, you say people not giving money is part of the problem, what do you think is the other part of the problem, in your opinion?

I just find it odd that considering the current state of our athletic department, the only people you call out are private citizens, so to speak, and their pocketbooks.

I'm willing to bet there are very few people who loudly complain and don't buy tickets or donate.

I'm positive there are plenty of sports fans and alums that don't care at all about UNT sports other than to look at a score every now and then and say "same ol' North Texas" and move on with their lives. At this point I wish we had more people who cared enough to complain.

The problem isn't complainers, it's the state of the athletic department that has caused people to simply not care at all. A change in the W-L column will start to turn that around.

It's the nature of sports here in the DFW area, you have to give the people something to care about first. Ask the Mavs and Rangers.

Well, you would be wrong about the number who complain yet don't support, but whatever floats your boat. If you consider supporting your university the same as buying Rangers or Mavs tickets then in my opinion you just don't get it. And, that is the other part of the problem. UNT fans and Alums don't get it....long history of not getting it and not seeing their university as anything more than an entertainment dollar decision. Until that changes....nothing much else changes around here. The good news? Well, that attitude does appear to be changing....ever so slowly, but changing for the better none the less. How long will it take? No clue....just pleased to see it changing.

Well, you would be wrong about the number who complain yet don't support, but whatever floats your boat. If you consider supporting your university the same as buying Rangers or Mavs tickets then in my opinion you just don't get it. And, that is the other part of the problem. UNT fans and Alums don't get it....long history of not getting it and not seeing their university as anything more than an entertainment dollar decision. Until that changes....nothing much else changes around here. The good news? Well, that attitude does appear to be changing....ever so slowly, but changing for the better none the less. How long will it take? No clue....just pleased to see it changing.

So, are you saying if we pay more into this train wreck of an athletic department we will get better results or better leadership?

So, are you saying if we pay more into this train wreck of an athletic department we will get better results or better leadership?

Pretty simple, isn't it?

As an aside....it is no where near a train wreck.

Pretty simple, isn't it?

As an aside....it is no where near a train wreck.

I asked a question. Better results, better leadership or both?

I asked a question. Better results, better leadership or both?

You got an answer.