****OFFICIAL ECU vs UNT IN-GAME DISCUSSION***

Clearing out the attic today, I ran across a letter from Hayden Fry, dated February 1, 1977, to Mean Green Club members. In it he states that "we have four immediate goals that you can help us achieve". Guess what they were??

1. "We must INCREASE OUR HOME GAME ATTENDANCE....REGARDLESS OF OUR OPPONENT" (caps are his)

2. "We must IMPROVE OUR ATHLETIC FACILITIES"

3. "We must IMPROVE OUR TICKET AND SPORTS INFORMATION OPERATION"

4. "We must INCREASE OUR MEAN GREEN EAGLE CLUB MEMBERSHIP"

I wonder where we would be today if we had been able to accomplish all of that back then instead of 34 years later?

Even more surprising to me is that the issues back then are the same issues we face today. I would also add #4 needs to be accomplished by the members already in the club and not the athletic department.

Interesting find. I wasn't around North Texas back then, but I would imagine we have improved/increased all of those since then, have we not?

Great find! What could have been ...

Interesting find. I wasn't around North Texas back then, but I would imagine we have improved/increased all of those since then, have we not?

Yes, we've made some progress, but until the past few years did not make progress at the rate of other schools. Hopefully, we will now remain ahead of the curve.

"I wonder where we would be today if we had been able to accomplish all of that back then instead of 34 years later?"

Clearly, we would be in a much better conference (CUSA, the old WAC, SWC), possibly been invited to a bowl during one of Hayden's stellar seasons, and we may not have had to drop down to D1AA, better known as football purgatory.

So, the message in the letter is still the same. Pack the stadium regardless of who we play, buy season tickets, and join the Mean Green Club. We have the facilities.

No more excuses North Texas fans!

I would imagine we have improved/increased all of those since then, have we not?

No

Rick

Well FFR, I wouldn't say no across the board. Back during the Fry era, if we had suffered through four seasons like the last four, I would suggest that our attendance would have been in the hundreds or low thousands. I would also state that our facilities are much improved over when Coach Fry was here. Not sure about the ticket/sports information and MGC numbers.

Yes, we've made some progress, but until the past few years did not make progress at the rate of other schools. Hopefully, we will now remain ahead of the curve.

I will say this. Our facilites and location are now on par with us being at a much more level playing ground with the other non-AQ teams in the country. But without any winning seasons that really further more support from the alumni/community, it all could just be a matter of being "too late" to the party. IMHO, the next 5 years will determine what level of football we will be playing at in the future. We could be anything from an AQ conference, a top non-AQ league, a better non-AQ league for our budget, stay in this league and hope it continues to be FBS, or play in a situation where some of the non-AQs like the SBC, MAC,WAC, and maybe even CUSA get lowered down to FCS-type status even more than they are now. You could make a case that there are not many schools that have so much potential for their athletic programs to go up or down as we do right now. Its why I think the university has done the trifecta of building better facilities, hiring presidents that are very pro-athletics, and now (finally) hiring and PAYING for quality coaches in the major revenue sports--they know that this is the time to either get in or get out when it comes to being included at a higher level of athletics. If I'm wrong about this, then the $78 million dollar stadium we are building may go down as the worst financial decision ever made at UNT--because we will never come close to filling that place if we are back to playing at a level that resembles the old 1-aa. I doubt that this scenario will play out though. I trust that Rawlins, Neinas, the BOR and RV know what is at stake and that we will be playing at the highest level of NCAA football for years to come.

No

Rick

Provide an explanation of your response, please.

I have been around our aw-gust institution for 41 years so believe me, I see improvements all-around since I first arrived on the campus in July, 1970.

I went through the Hayden era - was a big fan of the athletic programs as a student and continued to be actively involved for several years as an alumnus before drifting into life's mundane days and years - became involved with the athletic program again in 2006 - what I see today in terms of the quality of the facilities and programs does not even BEGIN to compare to those collegiate step-child days when Hayden was here (not speaking here of wins-and-losses, but of those things to which Hayden addresses).

I don't know when you began supporting this program, but I would be interested in an explanation of your "no" response.

Thanks.

Provide an explanation of your response, please.

I have been around our aw-gust institution for 41 years so believe me, I see improvements all-around since I first arrived on the campus in July, 1970.

I went through the Hayden era - was a big fan of the athletic programs as a student and continued to be actively involved for several years as an alumnus before drifting into life's mundane days and years - became involved with the athletic program again in 2006 - what I see today in terms of the quality of the facilities and programs does not even BEGIN to compare to those collegiate step-child days when Hayden was here (not speaking here of wins-and-losses, but of those things to which Hayden addresses).

I don't know when you began supporting this program, but I would be interested in an explanation of your "no" response.

Thanks.

I've been around for just about 11 years and there's a night and day difference. When I started here, the stands were empty and you couldn't find someone with UNT gear on nearly as easily as you can now. Heck, within the year that RV started, you saw a difference in the atmosphere on campus, and even moreso with the successful Dickey years. Then look at the attendance during the Dodge coaching era - I was always surprised that despite the record, we had the attendance we did. At the same time, our facilities got a massive improvement, and with the new stadium and the new facilities for the other teams, you can't miss the improvements there.

If I can see a difference in just 11 years, I'm sure you see even more in 41. I think FFR's being pessimistic here.

Clearing out the attic today, I ran across a letter from Hayden Fry, dated February 1, 1977, to Mean Green Club members. In it he states that "we have four immediate goals that you can help us achieve". Guess what they were??

1. "We must INCREASE OUR HOME GAME ATTENDANCE....REGARDLESS OF OUR OPPONENT" (caps are his)

2. "We must IMPROVE OUR ATHLETIC FACILITIES"

3. "We must IMPROVE OUR TICKET AND SPORTS INFORMATION OPERATION"

4. "We must INCREASE OUR MEAN GREEN EAGLE CLUB MEMBERSHIP"

I wonder where we would be today if we had been able to accomplish all of that back then instead of 34 years later?

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#1. We really haven't improved on that since the Hayden Fry days. Keep in mind that when Hayden Fry was coaching, the student population was about 16.5K to 17K. Our student population is about twice that now.

In 1977 (the year of the letter) the average home attendance was 19,599. In 1978 the average home attendance was 17,683.

During our bowl runs, and recording setting conference winning streak, our average attendance was.....

2001.. 14,679

2002...15,260

2003...18,694

2004...15,184

#2. We have made significant improvement in that area. Thanks mostly to the efforts of the SGA officers (led by UNTFLYER)who organized "the Vote". THAT was what got us this wonderful stadium...period. Not the Athletic department.

#3. Our ticket office is very friendly to me (but, I'm usually not very demanding), and our Sports info dept has a web-site, but I don't think that the overall service has improved since 1977.

4. I don't know how many members there were in 1977. But considering

that for several years in recent history our MGC was headed up by the surly, snobbish and just generally dismissive Mandy McKinley..... whatever the current numbers are, they SHOULD be at least twice as much.

#1. We really haven't improved on that since the Hayden Fry days. Keep in mind that when Hayden Fry was coaching, the student population was about 16.5K to 17K. Our student population is about twice that now.

In 1977 (the year of the letter) the average home attendance was 19,599. In 1978 the average home attendance was 17,683.

During our bowl runs, and recording setting conference winning streak, our average attendance was.....

2001.. 14,679

2002...15,260

2003...18,694

2004...15,184

#2. We have made significant improvement in that area. Thanks mostly to the efforts of the SGA officers (led by UNTFLYER)who organized "the Vote". THAT was what got us this wonderful stadium...period. Not the Athletic department.

#3. Our ticket office is very friendly to me (but, I'm usually not very demanding), and our Sports info dept has a web-site, but I don't think that the overall service has improved since 1977.

4. I don't know how many members there were in 1977. But considering

that for several years in recent history our MGC was headed up by the surly, snobbish and just generally dismissive Mandy McKinley..... whatever the current numbers are, they SHOULD be at least twice as much.

You're taking a very narrow view of things. The new stadium doesn't get passed if the athletic department isn't involved. You also leave out the entire Eagle Point complex ... the new women's facilities, new tennis facility, etc. Don't forget that when Rick got here the floor of the Super Pit hadn't been replaced in a very long time.

I wasn't around in '77 but I've heard horror stories about how bad the athletic department was.

You're taking a very narrow view of things. The new stadium doesn't get passed if the athletic department isn't involved. You also leave out the entire Eagle Point complex ... the new women's facilities, new tennis facility, etc. Don't forget that when Rick got here the floor of the Super Pit hadn't been replaced in a very long time.

I wasn't around in '77 but I've heard horror stories about how bad the athletic department was.

You heard wrong.

Silver, I have to agree with NorthTexan 95, and I've been around all my life. The athletic department was an improvement in the Fry years over the previous administration, but between Fry and now, it was a disaster. Under RV's leadership, we have realized more improvements in more areas than any other athletic administration. Has he been perfect? No. But he walked into a mess and either made immediate improvements or has corrected the errors he has made. Plus, he's done it with a continued passion when many would have just thrown up their hands at the roadblocks he has encountered and walked away. That, or just headed to the golf course like Steve Sloan.

Silver, I have to agree with NorthTexan 95, and I've been around all my life. The athletic department was an improvement in the Fry years over the previous administration, but between Fry and now, it was a disaster. Under RV's leadership, we have realized more improvements in more areas than any other athletic administration. Has he been perfect? No. But he walked into a mess and either made immediate improvements or has corrected the errors he has made. Plus, he's done it with a continued passion when many would have just thrown up their hands at the roadblocks he has encountered and walked away. That, or just headed to the golf course like Steve Sloan.

Sloan may have been a bad hire, but not as bad as Helwig. I almost kicked my school to the curb during his tenure. No athletic department is perfect, and I really hate it when people pull out that word when a comparative discussion is taking place. Kind of like how I REALLY DISLIKE the "don't hate" statement when someone is merely offering a constructive criticism.

Success regarding the four points above--ideally--are all driven by alumni. No facilities (in general) are delivered or improved by the AD. They can be proposed, but the alumni/students deliver them. Alumni involvement drive changes in points 2 and 3 and to a lesser degree, 1 and 4, but all are affected the most by the alumni and students.

I had a boss one time that I was delivering a report to while we were "walking and talking". I was busy reading results/crap off a report, and we both walked by a wadded up piece of paper lying on the floor.

I was talking and walking for another 10 feet or so before I noticed he had stopped and was standing next to the paper and looking at it silently. I turned around--slightly annoyed--and he said: "Jim? What's that?" Pointing to the garbage.

"It's a piece of wadded up paper." I said.

He nodded. "Why is it there?"

"I don't know." I said through grit teeth. Knowing that this was probably a "teaching moment" because I had seen the trash and walked over it.

He looked up and pointed to the trash, and then back to me. "It's there...because you WANT it to be there." And smiled and walked away.

UNT is in the same situation. Until the alumni and to a lesser degree, the students demand it with their attendance and their checkbooks, things will be the way they are because that's the way they want it to be.

Fortunately, I think this mindset is finally changing.

Success regarding the four points above--ideally--are all driven by alumni. No facilities (in general) are delivered or improved by the AD. They can be proposed, but the alumni/students deliver them. Alumni involvement drive changes in points 2 and 3 and to a lesser degree, 1 and 4, but all are affected the most by the alumni and students.

I had a boss one time that I was delivering a report to while we were "walking and talking". I was busy reading results/crap off a report, and we both walked by a wadded up piece of paper lying on the floor.

I was talking and walking for another 10 feet or so before I noticed he had stopped and was standing next to the paper and looking at it silently. I turned around--slightly annoyed--and he said: "Jim? What's that?" Pointing to the garbage.

"It's a piece of wadded up paper." I said.

He nodded. "Why is it there?"

"I don't know." I said through grit teeth. Knowing that this was probably a "teaching moment" because I had seen the trash and walked over it.

He looked up and pointed to the trash, and then back to me. "It's there...because you WANT it to be there." And smiled and walked away.

UNT is in the same situation. Until the alumni and to a lesser degree, the students demand it with their attendance and their checkbooks, things will be the way they are because that's the way they want it to be.

Fortunately, I think this mindset is finally changing.

I totally agree. And as I've said many times, Hayden Fry was making inroads into "changing the mindset". But when he left, the "mindset" went back to the old ways. And the people who worshiped at the alter of "we-just-want-to-be-the-best-little-Teachers College-that-we-can-be"took back over and just about undid every positive thing that Hayden did. That mindset is still there amongst many of the entrenched "old-nesters" at the school. Hopefully they are no longer in a position to influence policy like they were before.

Our current AD is making inroads in getting rid of that mindset, but he doesn't have the dynamic personality of Hayden Fry, to bring it about quicker. But then, who does?

Our current AD is making inroads in getting rid of that mindset, but he doesn't have the dynamic personality of Hayden Fry, to bring it about quicker. But then, who does?

Dan McCarney?

The last two posts, Silver's and Green59's, are excellent, and SE, I would agree that Helwig was a greater disaster than Sloan. I just picked Sloan out of a group of really bad hires. Helwig will forever be known as the moron that introduced blue and copper to our logo.

Dan McCarney?

From what I've seen...pretty close. However, changing the culture at NT is not his job....it's the AD's job. And considering that the aforementioned Mandy Mckinley was one of his hires.................

From what I've seen...pretty close. However, changing the culture at NT is not his job....it's the AD's job. And considering that the aforementioned Mandy Mckinley was one of his hires.................

Silver, some great stuff you have been posting lately. And,I agree that Mandy was a complete nightmare and disaster that was, somehow, allowed to stay employed at UNT for WAY too long. One has to wonder what possessed RV to keep her around as long as he did? However, I do think RV has now assembled the best overall staff the dept. has ever seen. Let's hope so at least.

Go Mean Green!

The last two posts, Silver's and Green59's, are excellent, and SE, I would agree that Helwig was a greater disaster than Sloan. I just picked Sloan out of a group of really bad hires. Helwig will forever be known as the moron that introduced blue and copper to our logo.

Helwig will foreve be known to me as the guy who thought it was just fine to schedule all of our OOC games on the road to fund the athletic department, as well as the guy who thought the answer to our unviersity's basketball program was to fire Tim Jankovich (probably still laughing about this still today) and hire Vic Trilli (who is also probably laughing about this still today). Steve Sloan did hire Dennis Parker, though, who was then fired by Helwig. At least he got one thing right in his tenure here.

I do think RV has now assembled the best overall staff the dept. has ever seen. Let's hope so at least.

We need new blood in marketing/advertising.

For the record, Sloan did not hire Dennis Parker...he was already here when Steve go here. The celebrated duo of Al Hurley and Peter Lane hired Dennis Parker.

Hey the past is the past. Lets wish her well at San Diego.

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